Touch of Death Change

[Tolero]

Wow... I for one would like an explanation as to how the original title violated the forums' ToS. I suppose the classification of this change as a "nerf" is very slightly opinionated (all those max-WIS dark monks out there rejoice!), but I didn't realize we weren't allowed opinions that differed from the devs.

Something doesn't have to be a ToS violation to be changed. Doing some thread perusing/sorting, so expect mobile threads in several forums as they are shuffled to places where they are more likely to be seen or renamed to titles that are more likely to be read.

[khaldan]

Dark still does more DPS against most things than Light does. So the choice is still between party support or greater personal DPS. And Dark can do party support against mobs for which their bread n butter attack does not work.

Light does bring what is probably the best debuff in game, assuming it works on curse immune bosses. It's going to be a choice between bringing 2 major party buffs, or bringing slightly better dps. Counting aligning as a major party buff, so if the group doesn't need the sp, you still bring Jade Strike along as light.

Something doesn't have to be a ToS violation to be changed. Doing some thread perusing/sorting, so expect mobile threads in several forums as they are shuffled to places where they are more likely to be seen or renamed to titles that are more likely to be read.

You think ToD change is going to be more likely to be read than ToD nerf?

[gurgar78]

What party support does a dark monk have? you mean their elemental debuffs?
Just so you know, the level 3 path feat, Fists of darkness, Also does NOT work on undead.

That is exactly what I meant... the elemental debuffs. 10% may not seem like much, and it's certainly not as much damage as pre-nerf ToD, but the point of a nerf is to... nerf. So don't expect to get anything that's going to do as much damage as pre-nerf ToD. The point is, you have other things you can use that cooldown for if a mob is immune to neg energy damage.

[Trillea]

Something doesn't have to be a ToS violation to be changed. Doing some thread perusing/sorting, so expect mobile threads in several forums as they are shuffled to places where they are more likely to be seen or renamed to titles that are more likely to be read.

IMO, this "change" was unnecessary, uncalled for, and has completely removed the heart of many dark monk builds.

[khaldan]

That is exactly what I meant... the elemental debuffs. 10% may not seem like much, and it's certainly not as much damage as pre-nerf ToD, but the point of a nerf is to... nerf. So don't expect to get anything that's going to do as much damage as pre-nerf ToD. The point is, you have other things you can use that cooldown for if a mob is immune to neg energy damage.

The dark finishers are a loss of personal dps compared to earth/earth/earth spam. Effectively, you're saying that dark monks should be group buffers, when light does that, but so much better.

[dkyle]

Dark still does more DPS against most things than Light does. So the choice is still between party support or greater personal DPS. And Dark can do party support against mobs for which their bread n butter attack does not work.

Suppose Warchanter Bards had to give up most of their Inspire Courage potency to be viable melee DPS (the same DPS they're currently capable). They'd have higher personal DPS than other Bards with full Inspire Courage, but provide much less support to the party. Do you think any group would want them? Sure, they could come along on easier quests, accepted out of pity or indifference, but they wouldn't be desired.

There comes a point where, even if the Dark Monk does more DPS than a Light Monk, they are no longer worth taking a spot that any dime-a-dozen-DPS of a different class could occupy. I'm not sure if this nerf reduces them to that, but it's a possibility.

And party support? The Dark Monk finishers are terrible. The elemental vulnerabilities are questionable, and clearly inferior to the physical damage vulnerability debuff Shintao will be getting. Stunning doesn't work on the same things ToD doesn't work on.

[Renegade66]

Here's what I love about Turbine. Their Marketing and Techies are very much insync with their visions. Marketing's job is to make money. Here's how the techies can help.

1. Introduce Monks in a manner that makes it obvious to go light monk.

2. Introduce a change to Monks that makes it obvious to go dark monk (aka Touch of Death).
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

3. Introduce boost to light monks (aka Shintao III) making it somewhat tempting to switch back to light monk.
<Insert little to no financial gain since the enticement was not sufficient for people to make the change>

4. Nerf the hell out of Touch of Death so that it is obvious to go light monk.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Prediction for what's coming next:
5. Possibly soften the nerf to ToD or offer a new cool thing for dark monks.
6. Nerf Shintao III.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Rinse and Repeat.

From a business model perspective, it's a thing of beauty.

[gurgar78]

The dark finishers are a loss of personal dps compared to earth/earth/earth spam. Effectively, you're saying that dark monks should be group buffers, when light does that, but so much better.

I wasn't referring to the dark finishers, but the dark elemental debuff strikes that every dark monk takes in order to get to ToD... the strikes that are on the same cooldown as ToD that no one ever previously used because ToD was too good.

Yes, light does a better job at party buffing. However, dark can still contribute to the group's damage on the mobs which are immune to ToD damage.

That there, be the point. You will still be able to ToD most mobs, albeit for less damage than you are currently used to doing, and you can use the elemental debuffs to help your party on those mobs for which you can no longer use ToD.

[rest]

has anyone confirmed if

void lore ... and potency will increase ToD now that it is a neg energy effect?
can it crit?

I will answer your question if you promise to stop putting 5,000 periods in almost all your posts. I don't bother to read them 90% of the time because it makes my brain hurt. This one was short so I did.

[Goldenadult79]

That is exactly what I meant... the elemental debuffs. 10% may not seem like much, and it's certainly not as much damage as pre-nerf ToD, but the point of a nerf is to... nerf. So don't expect to get anything that's going to do as much damage as pre-nerf ToD. The point is, you have other things you can use that cooldown for if a mob is immune to neg energy damage.

Those debuffs all share the same timer.
the cooldown is 15 seconds.
they are not considered dark path attacks.
they do not lead to a finisher.
they do only base hand damage.
how many mobs do your groups kill in 15 seconds?

Dark monks have 1 viable roll. DPS.

[khaldan]

I wasn't referring to the dark finishers, but the dark elemental debuff strikes that every dark monk takes in order to get to ToD... the strikes that are on the same cooldown as ToD that no one ever previously used because ToD was too good.

Yes, light does a better job at party buffing. However, dark can still contribute to the group's damage on the mobs which are immune to ToD damage.

That there, be the point. You will still be able to ToD most mobs, albeit for less damage than you are currently used to doing, and you can use the elemental debuffs to help your party on those mobs for which you can no longer use ToD.

So, dark monks are effectively really bad light monks with different finishers?

I'm not seeing why this is a good thing for any reason besides a marketing perspective.

[Silent_Kobold]

I welcome the new change... not that it mattered to me I was a light monk when all the darks were bragging about 500-2500 damage every 15 secs. Essentially with that ability you negated the need for every other melee in the game as no one could touch those numbers.

Can anyone honestly say they didn't see this coming and it is totally fair to have one class pumping out about 1500 instant unresistable damage at level 9? I did, so I stayed light and built my damage around stuns and quivering palm/dismissal instant kills.

Furthermore, the "OMQ you has totally nerfed my l33t damage now I am going to quits" rants are totally uncalled for fact is Dark monks now have a potential of 250-3125 damage on 83% of the game maybe more if you can use FvS or Clr negative energy enhancements to boost damage. On the flip side I get some nice raid boss debuffers and a few more autocrit/damage booster/damage mitigator options.

It not the end of the world, do we really have to do this with every major update?

[gurgar78]

Here's what I love about Turbine. Their Marketing and Techies are very much insync with their visions. Marketing's job is to make money. Here's how the techies can help.

1. Introduce Monks in a manner that makes it obvious to go light monk.

2. Introduce a change to Monks that makes it obvious to go dark monk (aka Touch of Death).
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

3. Introduce boost to light monks (aka Shintao III) making it somewhat tempting to switch back to light monk.
<Insert little to no financial gain since the enticement was not sufficient for people to make the change>

4. Nerf the hell out of Touch of Death so that it is obvious to go light monk.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Prediction for what's coming next:
5. Possibly soften the nerf to ToD or offer a new cool thing for dark monks.
6. Nerf Shintao III.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Rinse and Repeat.

[Scooby-Doo Villain]And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you kids adding Hearts to the random loot tables![/Scooby-Doo Villain]

[RuneDude]

Here's what I love about Turbine. Their Marketing and Techies are very much insync with their visions. Marketing's job is to make money. Here's how the techies can help.

1. Introduce Monks in a manner that makes it obvious to go light monk.

2. Introduce a change to Monks that makes it obvious to go dark monk (aka Touch of Death).
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

3. Introduce boost to light monks (aka Shintao III) making it somewhat tempting to switch back to light monk.
<Insert little to no financial gain since the enticement was not sufficient for people to make the change>

4. Nerf the hell out of Touch of Death so that it is obvious to go light monk.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Prediction for what's coming next:
5. Possibly soften the nerf to ToD or offer a new cool thing for dark monks.
6. Nerf Shintao III.
<Insert financial gain here as people like me spend dollars to get T-points to buy a Lesser Reincarnation>

Rinse and Repeat.

From a business model perspective, it's a thing of beauty.

7. Then introduce Henshin Mystic, which is better than light or dark, making All monks LR! Give a attack dealing 500 magic damage to all enemies! wait wasn't that the prob with Tod? oh well fix in a few months, then they LR back to light or dark!

[gurgar78]

So, dark monks are effectively really bad light monks with different finishers?

I'm not seeing why this is a good thing for any reason besides a marketing perspective.

Dark monks still do more damage than light monks against most mobs.

It's a good thing because it restored the balance between Light and Dark. Or at least that was the objective. It's being tested on the Lam server now to see if it serves that purpose.

[khaldan]

[Scooby-Doo Villain]And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for you kids adding Hearts to the random loot tables![/Scooby-Doo Villain]

And how many have you heard of on llama-land so far? It has only been a day, but one would think someone would have pulled one by now.

7. Then introduce Henshin Mystic, which is better than light or dark, making All monks LR! Give a attack dealing 500 magic damage to all enemies! wait wasn't that the prob with Tod? oh well fix in a few months, then they LR back to light or dark!

Does henshin require a light/dark path? I thought they went more middle of the road type, so either path might be able to take it.

Knowing turbine, it'll be a respec to Fists of True Neutrality though.

[sephiroth1084]

Dark monks have 1 viable roll. DPS.

Actually, their crowd control with V/D/V is pretty nice, and their D/D/D debuff finisher helps tremendously in taking down constructs and elementals.

[MarcusCleardawn]

This is a flagrant overreaction. If it uses anything like a normal monk save dc, even for str-based monks it will be extremely useful. Even when it does do half damgae, it will be extremely useful. Right now, the ability alone provides 30-90 dps depending how many times it fires when it's used. This is incredibly outsized and out of balance with the rest of the class and the game. This ability, right now, does 20% of all your damage. No one single thing should be that big a part of a class's effectiveness, and it is no longer.

I'm with you for most of it, but 20% of all your damage prime nerf bait?

Then how do you feel about Death Frenzy? Admittedly, you can get Touch of Death a heck of a lot sooner, but 4d6 untyped damage, plus increased critical multiplier is pretty significant.

Sneak Attacks? I don't play rogues, but from the guides written by those that do, there seems to be a consensus that Sneak Attacks account for more than 20% of total damage output.

Tempest III? +20% off hand, +5% chance to double strike, even discounting the to hit buff, that's still a 14% increase to dps by itself.

I'll forego the rehash of Fire Wall and/or Wail of the Banshee, but it seems to me that having a signature class feature account for 20% of a character's dps really isn't that outsized.

I really think this change shares a fair amount with Sneak Attack, and they just added new abilities to allow Sneak Attacks to work, at least partially, on those who were previously entirely immune.

Perhaps a compromise solution would be if the elemental debuff could overwrite Deathward or negative energy immunities similar to the new Rogue fortification bypass abilities.

[gurgar78]

And how many have you heard of on llama-land so far? It has only been a day, but one would think someone would have pulled one by now.

Haven't really paid attention, but I guess I didn't expect people to come running to post the instant they looted one.

[khaldan]

Dark monks still do more damage than light monks against most mobs.

It's a good thing because it restored the balance between Light and Dark. Or at least that was the objective. It's being tested on the Lam server now to see if it serves that purpose.

Light monks bring their own dps, plus the extra damage gained from -25% fort and 10% more physical damage taken, along with the extra jade abilities. I doubt the dark monk is bringing more dps, after this.

This is only if you don't have a light monk already, though. Woo, being relegated to bard status!