Touch of Death Change

[khaldan]

Haven't really paid attention, but I guess I didn't expect people to come running to post the instant they looted one.

Someone did come here after they got an astral diamond, guess my expectations may have been off.

Either way, percentages would be nice to see.

[gurgar78]

Light monks bring their own dps, plus the extra damage gained from -25% fort and 10% more physical damage taken, along with the extra jade abilities. I doubt the dark monk is bringing more dps, after this.

This is only if you don't have a light monk already, though. Woo, being relegated to bard status!

I apologize, I think maybe I wasn't making my point clearly above. If you're talking about overall contribution to the group, then yes... the balance may be out of whack. That's what testing is for.

Dark monks *will* however, still do more personal DPS than light monks on most mobs. That is what I meant.

[Goldenadult79]

Actually, their crowd control with V/D/V is pretty nice, and their D/D/D debuff finisher helps tremendously in taking down constructs and elementals.

Constructs,
D/D/D- Fists of darkness(constructs are immune, negative damage), Touch of Death(immune, negative), Fists of darkness(immune, again)

Yes im starting to see how powerful that is on constructs. you using 3 attacks that do zero damage.

[khaldan]

I apologize, I think maybe I wasn't making my point clearly above. If you're talking about overall contribution to the group, then yes... the balance may be out of whack. That's what testing is for.

Dark monks *will* however, still do more personal DPS than light monks on most mobs. That is what I meant.

Even counting Jade Strike as a self buff, are dark monks really that far ahead now? ToD is now about 75% as effective, since most enemies can be relied to save against is about half the time, so seeing some new dark dps figures would be nice.

Either way, in the choice between a first light monk or a first dark monk, always go light monk.

[khaldan]

Constructs,
D/D/D- Fists of darkness(constructs are immune, negative damage), Touch of Death(immune, negative), Fists of darkness(immune, again)

Yes im starting to see how powerful that is on constructs. you using 3 attacks that do zero damage.

As stupid as it sounds, the debuff really does help against crateos and bosses like him on epic. The fact that it's worse than a spammable light strike doesn't help at all, though.

[gurgar78]

Even counting Jade Strike as a self buff, are dark monks really that far ahead now? ToD is now about 75% as effective, since most enemies can be relied to save against is about half the time, so seeing some new dark dps figures would be nice.

Either way, in the choice between a first light monk or a first dark monk, always go light monk.

No, I don't expect dark monks will be a great deal ahead of light monks now. Is there some reason you expected them to be?

Edit for clarification: Is there some reason you expected them to be *far* ahead of light monks? I expect them to be ahead, but I don't think they should be greatly ahead.

Part of the imbalance here probably has a lot to do with the imbalance between melee and spell damage at higher levels. Light path buffs melee damage. Dark path buffs spell damage. Which would you rather have buffed?

[voodoogroves]

Light monks bring their own dps, plus the extra damage gained from -25% fort and 10% more physical damage taken, along with the extra jade abilities. I doubt the dark monk is bringing more dps, after this.

This is only if you don't have a light monk already, though. Woo, being relegated to bard status!

This.

[khaldan]

No, I don't expect dark monks will be a great deal ahead of light monks now. Is there some reason you expected them to be?

Edit for clarification: Is there some reason you expected them to be *far* ahead of light monks? I expect them to be ahead, but I don't think they should be greatly ahead.

Part of the imbalance here probably has a lot to do with the imbalance between melee and spell damage at higher levels. Light path buffs melee damage. Dark path buffs spell damage. Which would you rather have buffed?

Dark monks should be ahead in personal dps. The problem being is that if you get a light monk instead, you get less personal dps, but a large gain in dps from the rest of the melee. Heck, Rogues will be treating Harry and the like as if they had 15% fortification, or I can get a dark monk who gives 10% more damage to my 1 caster. Woo.

[Goldenadult79]

As stupid as it sounds, the debuff really does help against crateos and bosses like him on epic. The fact that it's worse than a spammable light strike doesn't help at all, though.

I know they have uses. But the question isn't whether something is useful. Its about how often.

Claiming monks have Group support, simply because they can affect a few types of mobs in the game using a few finishers doesn't quite meet the requirements for that statement.

The DC for this ahs been posted. So lets get some real numbers around.
The new DC for ToD:
10+ full monk levels+wisdom mod.
so at 20 it starts at a 30 dc.
To get to 40 same as stunning fist/blow means you need a 30 wisdom. And remember that a 40 DC check is what you need to guarantee a 50% stun rate.
Is ToD going to work the same way? You need 30 wisdom to get ToD to fire for its max damage. Just HALF of the time. How much does that limit its effectiveness?

[TPICKRELL]

Counting each difficulty (normal/hard/elite/epic) as different monsters (to simplify my quick data scrubbing), the new Touch of Death will still function on slightly over 83% of the monsters in the game. The vast majority of the opponents it won't function on are undead, constructs, and inanimate objects. (And gelatinous cubes. I don't know why they're immune to negative energy. I'll have to go look that up.)

Passive death block effects (such as the Boss Ward or Epic Ward) will not prevent it from landing. Effects that prevent Negative Energy damage (such as the Death Ward spell) will prevent it. Effects that increase Negative Energy damage (such as the 3xDark finisher) will increase the damage as would normally be expected.

Under 0.38% of the monsters in the game are capable of casting Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. (Which partially overlaps with the previous set - Skeletal Priests in the subterrane cast Mass Death Ward.)

While those raw numbers are interesting, they seem largely irrelevant to me. TOD is only significant against tough monsters. I don't care if you limit my ability to use TOD on anyone in Irestone, or Deleras or Attaraxia or... Where it matters is at end game against tough monsters. End bosses, EPIC, hard and Elite quests in the Vale and Amrath.

TOD is used a lot from level 9 to level 17 out of convenience, but where this change hurts is in the harder content... When it matters, I'd guess the percentages are significantly different.

[sephiroth1084]

Constructs,
D/D/D- Fists of darkness(constructs are immune, negative damage), Touch of Death(immune, negative), Fists of darkness(immune, again)

Yes im starting to see how powerful that is on constructs. you using 3 attacks that do zero damage.

The triple dark finisher works on constructs. Go try it on a training dummy.

[gurgar78]

Dark monks should be ahead in personal dps. The problem being is that if you get a light monk instead, you get less personal dps, but a large gain in dps from the rest of the melee. Heck, Rogues will be treating Harry and the like as if they had 15% fortification, or I can get a dark monk who gives 10% more damage to my 1 caster. Woo.

Agreed, but then the issue we're really getting into then is the imbalance between melee and spells for end-game DPS.

[Goldenadult79]

The triple dark finisher works on constructs. Go try it on a training dummy.

how about a clay golem? which is what I tested it on before posting. The damage from the attacks needed to start the finisher it is immune to.

[Drfirewater79]

I will answer your question if you promise to stop putting 5,000 periods in almost all your posts. I don't bother to read them 90% of the time because it makes my brain hurt. This one was short so I did.

If i get an official developer response i will stop posting on lama boards all together till update 7 is live. Seriously though, if you cannot handle reading a post because i break it up into easy to read sections using dots and breaks rather then group my thoughts into unending paragraphs which are much much harder to read and follow, then you have bigger problems then ToD nerf.

Just saying, not trying to be rude, this time i just added comas where i normally would have put dots, does that make it easier for you?

[KoboldKiller]

This was posted by Eladrin in another TOD thread and I felt it summed up my views on this change pretty well:

"Counting each difficulty (normal/hard/elite/epic) as different monsters (to simplify my quick data scrubbing), the new Touch of Death will still function on slightly over 83% of the monsters in the game. The vast majority of the opponents it won't function on are undead, constructs, and inanimate objects. (And gelatinous cubes. I don't know why they're immune to negative energy. I'll have to go look that up.)

Passive death block effects (such as the Boss Ward or Epic Ward) will not prevent it from landing. Effects that prevent Negative Energy damage (such as the Death Ward spell) will prevent it. Effects that increase Negative Energy damage (such as the 3xDark finisher) will increase the damage as would normally be expected.

Under 0.38% of the monsters in the game are capable of casting Death Ward or Mass Death Ward. (Which partially overlaps with the previous set - Skeletal Priests in the subterrane cast Mass Death Ward.)"

In no way does this change make dark monks obsolete or make touch of death a useless ablity, it changes the amount that it is usefull but does not change it to the point where it breaks anything.

Tell that to EVERY str/con Dark Monk.

Also what else would we expect from Turbine but a "justification" of this change?

[Khurse]

10 + Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier. (So, 30 + Wisdom Modifier at level 20.)


Effects that increase the negative damage vulnerability of your opponent (like your dark finisher) will increase the damage from this strike, just like how your other enhancements (like All-Consuming Flame) can increase your elemental strike damage.

Yes it can increase the damage, at the cost of 40 more Ki (10 for each dark move + 10 for the finisher), so it basically is 90 KI for the strike, and (of course) the three times I'm hitting a dark attack instead of an attack that actually does damage. All this for a class that did not top the DPS lists at endgame.

As I'm guessing there's no changing this (btw, it was confirmed as WAI in the U5 update threads, why were 3 possible 500 pt attacks OK then, but not now?) is there at least going to be some sort of massive damage utility added to Ninja 3?

Also (if I may ask) why was it nerfed this way rather than say, moving the ability to T3 Ninja (level 18)

[gurgar78]

Tell that to EVERY str/con Dark Monk.

Also what else would we expect from Turbine but a "justification" of this change?

Well I assume they wouldn't make a change without feeling that there was some justification for it. No?

[Drfirewater79]

Effects that increase Negative Energy damage (such as the 3xDark finisher) will increase the damage as would normally be expected.

I am sorry if it seems like i am a little out of it ... still at work and near end of my day .. but is that confirmation that void lore and potency work on ToD?

does this mean ToD can now Crit? and with new spell change does that mean it can crit multiple times on Double strike ? assuming you have a monk with an item that has void lore and or potency on it?

[Drfirewater79]

Yes it can increase the damage, at the cost of 40 more Ki (10 for each dark move + 10 for the finisher), so it basically is 90 KI for the strike, and (of course) the three times I'm hitting a dark attack instead of an attack that actually does damage. All this for a class that did not top the DPS lists at endgame.

As I'm guessing there's no changing this (btw, it was confirmed as WAI in the U5 update threads, why were 3 possible 500 pt attacks OK then, but not now?) is there at least going to be some sort of massive damage utility added to Ninja 3?

Also (if I may ask) why was it nerfed this way rather than say, moving the ability to T3 Ninja (level 18)

yeah for almost twice the ki cost you can add 25-50 points of damage ... yeah its better to just not do that and save the ki for the next strike. Unless your fire stance .. then your gimped enough that you really need to take advantage of every single bit of damage before you die cause you have no ac.

[dkyle]

I am sorry if it seems like i am a little out of it ... still at work and near end of my day .. but is that confirmation that void lore and potency work on ToD?

This would be good to know. I doubt it does.

If it does work, then we could chug Superior Nihil I pots, for +75% damage. This would make the break-even-with-present-damage point at around 75% save rate. If Lore items apply, it gets better.