New Dice notation. Do not like.

[TechNoFear]

Problem I see is that it also doesn't give all the information

I think the new descriptions are very clear, I don't understand the fuss after looking on Lama.



I did not alter the image, the blue high-lighting is standard.
Both notations are catered for, with the D&D note at the bottom.

Am I missing something?

[Ghoste]

Like the old way. Both is better than nothing, but seems to me to be a very condescending change. Sounds a lot like the devs are the ones saying "you re too stupid to learn D&D" here.

[Melyc'inya]

I think the new descriptions are very clear, I don't understand the fuss after looking on Lama.
(snip)
I did not alter the image, the blue high-lighting is standard.
Both notations are catered for, with the D&D note at the bottom.

Am I missing something?

Okay, now go take a screenshot of the same spell on the live servers, and compare them side-by-side. The new one is way longer, which will cause problems for descriptions that are already really long (many have complained about being unable to see much of an item's description because of the longer descriptions added). Ideally, either we will be given a choice between dice notation and min-max range notation, and/or they will restrict the "newb-friendly" min-max/dice explanation to starter Korthos stuff along with tutorials and hints and what-have-you.

[Razcar]

A hint: Most people who don't play dice games, don't have any idea what a d(anything) is. Why? Not because they're idiots, or have no comprehension of math, or any absurd thing like that. It's because life has provided them absolutely no reason to obtain that information.

Then this is the time for them to learn what a "d" means in D&D. And when they have learned, they have made an investment - although ever so small. And if you make an investment into something, you feel more connected to it. And so everyone wins.

[Rasczak]

Whatever happen to hovering tooltips?

The description says 2d6, hover mouse over the hotspot and it will say something like

The 2d6 format is to show that dice are being rolled to gain a random number. The first number says how many dice are being thrown and the second number shows how many sides each dice will have.
Example: 2d6 means 2 dice of six sides each is being thrown giving you a random number range of 2 - 12.

Either way I want my dice back. Dice is the reason all of this is here and to remove the basis of how DnD is played steals that pen n paper feel away so much that we might as well be playing something generic.

Feats, Skills, Prestige Classes, Attacks and everything else can be changed and still resemble a pen n paper scenario. Taking away the dice is like removing the origins and the feel for pen n paper. Also taking away the dice opens up unreasonable alleys for values. Explained in the correct context and during the start of a players character creation seems a lot easier to me than changing every description in the game and upsetting people, like myself, who have history with DDO and most importantly DnD.

I do not see how explaining in the tutorial, that dice are being thrown in most cases. You will be able to tell when this is the case by the format *d* where * will be a number.
Example
1d4 tells you that a 4-sided dice is being thrown once.
2d4 Stands for throwing a 4-sided dice twice.


There cannot be anyone who has access to a computer, that does not know what dice are.

[Sweetsoul86]

I think the new descriptions are very clear, I don't understand the fuss after looking on Lama.



I did not alter the image, the blue high-lighting is standard.
Both notations are catered for, with the D&D note at the bottom.

Am I missing something?

Yes, the main thing people are upset about is that the d&d aspect has been slapped on at the end like it's an afterthought when many of us play this game faithfully because it's a d&d game with d&d flavor. The other huge thing is the length of the descriptions when you do things this way. Epic items, shroud items, raid gear and the like all have long descriptions to start with, add this and no one will be able to see any of the full descriptions because it will go off the screen, there's already a problem with that.

We know about the highlighting and many of us have already said it's about the only thing we like about the change. Many of us have also stated that we appreciate the thought behind the change but feel it would better suit everyone's needs if we were to just have a hint tip or to just add this type of description or hint onto korthos and harbor gear to help new players learn the system.

Another huge problem with this set-up is that the players may not read the entire description and if all they see is the top half they're seeing inaccurate information because 2-12 instead of 2d6 does not show the probability of a mid range number being rolled more often than a 2 or a 12.

[TechNoFear]

Yes, the main thing people are upset about is that the d&d aspect has been slapped on at the end like it's an afterthought when many of us play this game faithfully because it's a d&d game with d&d flavor.

I can't comment on how you feel, except to say I don't share these feelings.

The other huge thing is the length of the descriptions when you do things this way. Epic items, shroud items, raid gear and the like all have long descriptions to start with, add this and no one will be able to see any of the full descriptions because it will go off the screen, there's already a problem with that.

Have a look at the new tooltip you get when clicking on Extend etc (on Lama).

It contains a list of the 9 classes that can get the feat, then a 3 line description of Extend's effects (so is now 12 lines long, 8 red, 1 green and 3 white).

I think we should be pointing out that those 9 extra lines are not helpful.

[Borror0]

I think the new descriptions are very clear, I don't understand the fuss after looking on Lama.

It might be missing from this thread but there are a lot of descriptions who don't list the D&D dices. All that you are left with is 2-12, which is an incorrect way to describe the distribution. If the damage was 2-12, most would assume it is a 1d11+1 distribution rather than a 2d6 distribution unless they were familiar with D&D.

The problem with the current non-D&D dice display are that:

1. It is misleading. It is incorrect to think of 2d6 as 2-12. For one, the average is different.
2. It makes descriptions much wordier, to a point where many named items wouldn't fit one screen.
3. To some people, it removes an meaningful D&D feel from the description.
4. The desire goal could be achieved through more effective means.

[kruggar]

1d10+2 is 3-12 linear distribution borr.

[Midarc]

I can appreciate the reasoning behind why the change has been made, regardless of whether I agree with it or find it condescending.

However, I'd only like to reiterate what has no doubt already been stated.

Let it be a toggle.
Allow those of us who like the current system choose to use it.
Set the new system as default for those you seek to aid with this change.
Serve both factions of your customer base, everyone is happy.
I appreciate that this takes more time, but it would be appreciated.
I also appreciate that this adds complication to a system intended to provide simplification, but it serves not only to retain happy customers, it also serves to maintain a fundamental tie to the traditional aspects of D&D which set this game apart from a crowded market.
Besides, don't worry about confusing those of us who like the current system
We could figure out the dice in the first place, we're bound to be able to figure out a toggle.

Choose one over the other, some are bound to be alienated and while that won't be enough on its own to cause a customer to leave (except in the most reactionary, extreme circumstances), it could be the proverbial straw of dissatisfaction that breaks the magebred trihorn behemoths back.

[Borror0]

1d10+2 is 3-12 linear distribution borr.

Ya. Had a brain fart. Fixed it to 1d11+1.

[JOTMON]

1d3+3 /= 1 to 6

/signed

??

1d3+3 = 4 to 6 not 1 to 6

Wouldn't be easier to put up a splash page in the daily hints that explains how the d? system works instead of recoding every item from a xd? to 1 to ?....

New people coming to the game will learn what it means..

[Steiner-Davion]

I think the new descriptions are very clear, I don't understand the fuss after looking on Lama.



I did not alter the image, the blue high-lighting is standard.
Both notations are catered for, with the D&D note at the bottom.

Am I missing something?

Yes! Have you read this thread at all or the old one that was closed?

[Steiner-Davion]

??

1d3+3 = 4 to 6 not 1 to 6

Wouldn't be easier to put up a splash page in the daily hints that explains how the d? system works instead of recoding every item from a xd? to 1 to ?....

New people coming to the game will learn what it means..

Just about anything else would have been a lot easier than what they decided to do.

[Zenako]

Just about anything else would have been a lot easier than what they decided to do.

Alas it was probably the result of a committee.... Sometimes you just gotta take the bull by the horns and do it right, dang the consensus.

See that kind of "kludge" comprimise all the time in proposals, which try to appease everyone, but in fact end up annoying everyone.

It is ironic that part of the reason for the change was to help the same people who could not be bothered to read some of the core rules or tutorials, but are now expected to reads pages of pop up text and understand it. Think about who you are trying to help and WHY they needed help in the first place. Most of those in dire need were also the same ones who don't read the rules anyway, and just wanna swing that axe and kill kobolds (a noble pursuit to be sure ), or toss those fireballs and crisp the monsters. Just do, not read and learn and understand and THEN do. Just do.

So adding in mini pages of text will not really serve that player demographic all that well.

[Steiner-Davion]

It is ironic that part of the reason for the change was to help the same people who could not be bothered to read some of the core rules or tutorials, but are now expected to reads pages of pop up text and understand it. Think about who you are trying to help and WHY they needed help in the first place. Most of those in dire need were also the same ones who don't read the rules anyway, and just wanna swing that axe and kill kobolds (a noble pursuit to be sure ), or toss those fireballs and crisp the monsters. Just do, not read and learn and understand and THEN do. Just do.

So adding in mini pages of text will not really serve that player demographic all that well.

Another valid point!

[Rabbi_Hordo]

Wouldn't be easier to put up a splash page in the daily hints that explains how the d? system works instead of recoding every item from a xd? to 1 to ?....

New people coming to the game will learn what it means..

They have one, and have had one since Beta. It comes up fairly often, but unfortunately most folks don't pay any attention to the words written at the bottom, they are looking for boobies on the pixellated fembots projected on their screens.

[carlosjuero]

They have one, and have had one since Beta. It comes up fairly often, but unfortunately most folks don't pay any attention to the words written at the bottom, they are looking for boobies on the pixellated fembots projected on their screens.

Maybe they should make all of the tips on those screens be centered in 50pt Bolded font, people tend to ignore tips that aren't in their face (from what I have noticed both here and in other games).

Thinking on it all, I could have sworn I saw a pop-up tip (well, not pop-up but that exclamation tutorial thing) in The Grotto starter instance regarding die rolls... gonna have to roll a new character and see if I was hallucinating.

[cdbd3rd]

....I'll be very blunt when I say telling players "you're too stupid to learn D&D" is pretty much not acceptable on these forums in any way shape or form.

I so missed the wording of this my first few trips past the front page.

"...is pretty much not acceptable..."

Pretty much not, eh?




Aye, I know. I'll be soundly punished for this one.

[Sylvurdragon]

Just out of curiosity I wonder if the Devs are still reading this post. They have kinda maintained radio silence about this over the past 4 days or so.