New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Ethias]

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

No matter how much you spell it out, no matter how much you make tooltips show, you will always, ALWAYS get people who are going to be confused by DDO and think it's too complex. If people want to enjoy the game, the fact their weapons say 1d6 isn't what is keeping them away, heh.

You said this was meant to be an optional change, but the optional part isn't going to make it into U5? That irritates me.

Do you guys plan to remove all references to rolling and remove any dice that currently exist from the game? Otherwise, it sounds like it might be better to introduce people to dice earlier rather than later. It amuses me that you guys don't think dice notation, and with it dice rolling, is integral to D&D. Some people who look down upon D&D that play other pnp RPGs refer to D&D as "roll-playing".

However, since MadFloyd has made it clear that nothing will change for U5, what are your actual plans for this system in U6 and beyond? It'd be nice to get something up front here, because apparently it was supposed to be optional, but that's not making it into U5. When will it be in?

[OldAquarian]

We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option

Reread this and would like clarification:

Option to show things the old way, or option to not show the dice at all, and just show the range?

[SisAmethyst]

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible...
...Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model.

I guess it is not the point that we not understand that it is good for the game and business model to be more accessible, but if we play chess it is viable to understand what he mean if he move his knight from b1 to c3, because if he move it to b3 he apparently play the wrong game

I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

Maybe its more that we believe that if the notation is difficult to undertsand, than there is a lack of information to the new player that has to be corrected and not the notation. Also I can't remember to have read any post here that claimed that they not deserve to play the game. But if somone is coming over to this game and then just have negative words and attitudes for it, then it is probably the wrong game for this person. That are two total different views, like every dog is an animal does not mean any animal is a dog.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

We already have this for the weapons, that it gives us the average of the base damage which is fine for us. But the calculated average is something else then giving a range. Also note that we mostly used 2d6 as an example and not 1d6, as the later indeed may a random value between 1-6, but two dices will not fit in this schema. I agree that it is handy to know what my spell will actualy do on average damage without the need of calculating it, but why then not really give the average, as how it is now it is neither calculating in the caster level nor things like empower inside the range description anyway, so that argument is just flat. Also it is situational totaly different what you get, as one spell may heal one mob but damage the other. That mean if you would want to make it correct you as well would need to calculate it regarding the current target...

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

The point is that you start to screw up something before going to the player base and the way how you implementd it. It is not that we want the toggle button but there where several good suggestions in this thread. It drives us nuts that you behind our backs seem to change the look and feel of something we love, just to avoid a couple of questions about 1d6 that could have solved in mutliple other ways, liek telling new players what this dice description is actualy meaning. If you want to introduce someone to learn swimming you will not remove the water to make it easier for the person. That said, removing a barrier does not mean to make it dumb.

comments in red

[Ethias]

After re-reading his post, I suspect the option was to show "D&D Dice:" on items, with the 1-6 being the default, and 1-6, D&D Dice: 1d6 being the option. Heh.

[Coldin]

After re-reading his post, I suspect the option was to show "D&D Dice:" on items, with the 1-6 being the default, and 1-6, D&D Dice: 1d6 being the option. Heh.

I think you might be right. The DnD dice was relegated to it's own little corner of the description, so it would be easier to make that turn on and off.

[DagazUlf]

We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

That's all well and good, but this had seriously better not be one of those issues that continually gets swept under the dev rug for several updates.

[Borror0]

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

A lot of your posts lately consist of presenting the problem from your side. Generally speaking, that is a good approach. A good amount of forum feedback tend to be very self-centered and might not have the betterment of the game at heart - only the poster's best short term interest - so it is easy to brush it off. Even if a poster disagrees, he will at least appreciate the open communication and the fact you have taken the time to reply to the thread. However, when the outcry is as generalized as this - there are maybe three or four posters in support of the change in this thread, in total - that strategy won't work; it will only make you look distant and close-minded.

The problem with the presentation on Lamannia has been thoroughly covered:
1. It removes what is perceived as an important D&D feel from the description.
2. It is inaccurate, as the average from a range and the proper dice roll may differ.
3. It makes description much wordier, which makes them harder to read and obsoletes design space.

The least you could do is at least address them.

You did cover, vaguely, the first point by saying you respectfully disagreed. However, that is insufficient. When most posters have provided suggestions to both accomplish your desired goal (making description more accessible) and keeping the D&D feel, the least you can do is to comment on those suggestions either by saying you like them or pointing out what you perceive as flaws in them. Failing that, players will feel as if you didn't listen.

Of course, you also should comment on the other two perceived problems or players will feel as if you didn't listen.

The two main suggestions I have seen are:

A) Putting the range in parentheses beside the dices
Solving the issue like this would address point #1 and #3, and point #2 at least partially. The dices would remain on the default description at the same time as the range (#1 and #2) but in a much shorter format which drastically reduces the amount of text in the description (#3).

B) Using reminder texts to explain new terms
By using this approach, a reminder text would be put in parentheses at the end of the description explaining the confusing term(s) such as what 2d6 mean. This approach would solve all three problems completely as well as enable the ability to clarify other perhaps confusing terms such as natural 20, glancing blow, paralyzed, etc.

Why are these, in your opinion, inferior designs than the one currently on Lamannia?

PS: If I forgot another good suggestion, let me know. I didn't really fee like reading the 400+ posts to see if I missed anything.

We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option.

It is a bad idea for this to be made an option.

If you are right and that description should be made more accessible, then it would be ill-advised to hide the useful information behind an option hidden somewhere so it would have to be the default option. However, as this thread demonstrates, a very large portion of the playerbase loves the dice display to the point where they are willing to fight against its removal. That means that changing to the more accessible description would also make your default description less enjoyable to both current and potential customers. Basically, by picking either as a default setting you're lessening the experience of one type of potential customer - it's a lose/lose situation.

You might be tempted to think that players who dislike the non-dice display only have to go in options to change it, but that is fallacious thinking. Most users don't take the time to make adjustments to a software so it fits their experience the best.

The ideal solution has its default setting set to please both types of customer, not only one. Fortunately, the suggestion made above accomplish that goal too.

[Kalari]

I never played a minute of PnP in my life before starting DDO.

Did the dice confuse me at first? A little. But guess what? Eventually, I learned. Granted my husband played PnP and was able to explain things to me, but I'm the type of person who would have sought out the information and taught myself regardless. You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Is it seriously that hard to look up something that you don't understand?

It seriously feels like obtaining information and actually learning and having pride in figuring something out is lost in our world these days. People are all about instant gratification, and it's not their fault if something's too hard, everyone and everything else should have to change for THEM, instead of THEM learning and adapting.

Of course you disagree with us, if you make the game easier and easier, then more people will come play and pump money into the DDO Store. Will this make the game better? Maybe for the WoW-tards, but not for the people who were attracted to this game because it was based on PnP.

I absolutely hate the pandering to the lowest common denominator. Keep the carebearing out of the game, please. People have been learning this game for 4 years, yet you are listening to a bunch of whiners who don't WANT to learn, and just want YOU to make everything simpler for them.

Turbine should seriously grow some balls and stick to their guns concerning something as iconic and deeply rooted in D&D as the d20 system. How does WotC feel about this change?

I sometimes wish the game would have died rather than take the path it's taken in the last several months...

Oh god Sirea thank you for helping me dodge a bullet. You said what I wanted without the amount of cussing I was going to add. I will just say this I think its more insulting that they think that new players would not want to try to learn the d20 system playing a game named Dungeons and Dragons, I think its funny how they keep making these changes for new players when many new players are also coming from pen and paper. Making it free didnt just attract other mmo players it attracted all forms of Dungeon and Dragons players to and now they will load this game up with hopes and see just another bland mmo with a store to boot to buy their way to power instead of learning understanding and sometimes failing before they get a grasp and thus are hooked.

sorry to say but his response is just another thing making me think long and hard about my continued presence in this game and I know there are a few ready to high five at my leaving but its sad I just dont understand why we have to keep losing what made us unique in favor of more costumers when having them learn could keep them with the game as long as we have been.

[OldAquarian]

Thanks for the feedback...
we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

Okay, so far I found a voice of one: https://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2667678

And it seems what we actually do is explain it, even though they seemed to actually get it anyway.

Just curious where all the feedback is stating that people understand BAB, DR, and what glancing blow is, and why they need to take two weapon fighting to fight unarmed but if only they could understand what 2d6 means everything would be easy.

[Missing_Minds]

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

An option... explain the details of how you really intended for it to be implemented, please.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model.

Vital... I doubt that. Extremely helpful sure. Vital implies life or death. Is DDO really that badly hurting? That phrasing seems to indicate it is. (yeah, I'll admit to reading to much there.)

While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I do not believe that the majority think that at all. But the majority does feel that Turbine is insulting our intelligence with this incorrect notation.

2d6+2 is NOT 4-14.
RAND(11)+4 is 4-14.

Dice do NOT behave in RAND() like functionality as is being used in the explanations.

Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

The only area I wouldn't mind seeing this is in duration time as stated in my previous post.

all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game

Great news for you. YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!

we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

You want a clue what to do? You make freaking video guides. You TEACH people. You don't muck about with code which causes issues like this, you make guides to teach them how to play.

In a video guide, take them through the intro. Use a camera to show keyboard usage and button presses along side with in game video of what the reactions are. In the FOUR years DDO has been around, why has this NOT been done?
Why has the manual remained useless?

In the hours that have spent coding, peer reviewed, and quality control checked, video files could have been made that accomplish this and SO MUCH MORE.

People are LAZY! They are much more willing to sit back and watch a video vs. actually having to read, let alone think. 3rd grade is when I learned my multiplication table. I figure most players have this level of education. (Granted if you've ever watched 'Are you smarter than a 5th grader'.... you have to really wonder about people.)

You want to make it more accessible? Abuse facebook, abuse twitter, and make posts about the simple things in the game like the dice notation and what it means. Turbine, be the DM you are supposed to be and TEACH the game you are allowing us to play.

[Kalari]

An option... explain the details of how you really intended for it to be implemented, please.


Vital... I doubt that. Extremely helpful sure. Vital implies life or death. Is DDO really that badly hurting? That phrasing seems to indicate it is. (yeah, I'll admit to reading to much there.)


I do not believe that the majority think that at all. But the majority does feel that Turbine is insulting our intelligence with this incorrect notation.

2d6+2 is NOT 4-14.
RAND(11)+4 is 4-14.

Dice do NOT behave in RAND() like functionality as is being used in the explanations.


The only area I wouldn't mind seeing this is in duration time as stated in my previous post.


Great news for you. YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!


You want a clue what to do? You make freaking video guides. You TEACH people. You don't muck about with code which causes issues like this, you make guides to teach them how to play.

In a video guide, take them through the intro. Use a camera to show keyboard usage and button presses along side with in game video of what the reactions are. In the FOUR years DDO has been around, why has this NOT been done?
Why has the manual remained useless?

In the hours that have spent coding, peer reviewed, and quality control checked, video files could have been made that accomplish this and SO MUCH MORE.

People are LAZY! They are much more willing to sit back and watch a video vs. actually having to read, let alone think. 3rd grade is when I learned my multiplication table. (Granted if you've ever watched 'Are you smarter than a 5th grader'.... you have to really wonder about people.)

You want to make it more accessible? Abuse facebook, abuse twitter, and make posts about the simple things in the game like the dice notation and what it means. Turbine, be the DM you are supposed to be and TEACH the game you are allowing us to play.

You know I agree with ya strongly missing I just wish I felt what your saying would sink in. To me its already a universal decison for them to make the game easier for those with no dnd experience instead of utilizing this game to actually give them a bit of it. Honestly Id love to know the feedback they get sorry if I sound accusatory but I dont recall many if any threads about how much the d20 hurt peoples playing the game. Im not privy to such but it goes without saying that even those who never played pen and paper would try a dungeons and dragons mmo with the hopes to experience such. Maybe im just being naive though I was introduced to dungeons and dragons with no real knowledge outside the fears my family fed me about weirdos in the woods and being killed. I learned that it was a game of imagination, dice rolling and friendship and when I finally installed this mmo it had that feel. It took me wanting to learn and enjoying what I did learn and I know not everyone is the same and not saying they dont deserve to play as well but I still agree with others it would be better to teach them then to say "oh youd never get the system so heres the simplified version."

[melkor1702]

I never played a minute of PnP in my life before starting DDO.

Did the dice confuse me at first? A little. But guess what? Eventually, I learned. Granted my husband played PnP and was able to explain things to me, but I'm the type of person who would have sought out the information and taught myself regardless. You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Is it seriously that hard to look up something that you don't understand?

It seriously feels like obtaining information and actually learning and having pride in figuring something out is lost in our world these days. People are all about instant gratification, and it's not their fault if something's too hard, everyone and everything else should have to change for THEM, instead of THEM learning and adapting.

Of course you disagree with us, if you make the game easier and easier, then more people will come play and pump money into the DDO Store. Will this make the game better? Maybe for the WoW-tards, but not for the people who were attracted to this game because it was based on PnP.

I absolutely hate the pandering to the lowest common denominator. Keep the carebearing out of the game, please. People have been learning this game for 4 years, yet you are listening to a bunch of whiners who don't WANT to learn, and just want YOU to make everything simpler for them.

Turbine should seriously grow some balls and stick to their guns concerning something as iconic and deeply rooted in D&D as the d20 system. How does WotC feel about this change?

I sometimes wish the game would have died rather than take the path it's taken in the last several months...

I couldn't agree more with this, if you want to know how something works you will go and find out.

When I started this game I walked into the shop to buy WoW, I found the DDO box on the shelf and looked at the two boxes, I thought WoW is cheaper but then I've played pnp D&D and I like the look of the graphics better so I bought DDO and have played it most days ever since. I actually bought a second game that day a RTS game that, 3 years down the track, has never even been opened.

My pnp experience was with 2nd ed AD&D I played with THAC0s and 18/xx Strengths etc, concepts that are no longer in D&D. There were new rules, abilities that were explained to me in game by people I met, I did some research online and I even went one further than that and got on the net and bought a set of 3rd Ed. books (Players Handbook, DM Guide and Monster Manual), with no intention of playing pnp again, just so I could read up on and educate myself on the changes made to the base game since last I played with friends.

Whilst I understand the need to make the game accessable to all, removing aspects of the D&D part of the game isn't good for the player base. If a player doesn't understand the dice notations and formulas now how are they going to understand that whilst that spell look more powerful now, it's not going to be when i take a certain enhancement or when they increase in level or 5, the next step is to provide damage graphs for spells calculated to take into account different enhancements, equipment, levels, mob weakness and strengths. It just gets silly and a line needs to be drawn where a player is expected to know, ask or find out certain information.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

It seems, to many of us at least, you're changing the game from D&D to some other game.

I'm wondering if all these DnD people would've put the d before the 1-6? I'm wondering if Madfloyd gets it at all.

And it's too late to change it for U5? What else are we stuck with for U5?

[Chelsa]

I thought I had seen pointless arguments about silly stuff, but this one takes the cake. I've been playing D&D since 1976, but claiming this change will ruin the game is so out there that I had to pull out my old plastic dice to make a saving throw or become feebleminded.

At least you guys have found a place to spend your time.

[itatchi83]

Thanks for the feedback.

We are not able to revert this change for Update 5

I would just like to say one thing.

Why was this released on a test server, if it is impossible to revert the change.
It does not make any sense for you to open up a change for possible feedback, but then say "Well, we can't change it back guys. Sorry"
This obviously means you intended the change be permanent regardless of what we think about it.

This is another example of DDO developers not respecting DDO players, vets especially.

I am not that upset about the actual change honestly. I prefer the 2d6 system, but it is definitely not a game changer for me. How about, instead of focusing on meaningless things, you address the problems we have been talking about for a fairly long amount of time.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am glad you are finally doing something about some things we have asked about.
Such as guild airships? A creative spin on guild halls. Yes please.

Constantly adding more grinding to the game, which makes me want rip my eyes out in a barbarian rage? Nah, you can keep it.

Thanks for reading!

[Chaosprism]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

You could revert, it would just take more work because I'm sure it would have taken quite a bit to change all the text. And you're right it should be an option. The UI display would be set to "automatically evaluate dice expressions" to protect complete newbies. But people should be able to see the dice if they want also.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

Well if people are intimidated it's because they haven't learnt yet what a dice roll is. People that havent even played a board game with a 6 sided dice? Geezus, and if THATS the case you really must be aiming at a VERY VERY young market.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Absolutely, you need both in the display or a UI option to display DICE rolls for those that want it. I'd love to have enhancements and items that boost particular damage types displayed as such. Just so I know how much fire damage has been boosted, I know i've seen this as a suggestion before to show all the "hidden" values on an extra page of the character sheet.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

Well it's not a barrier. The problem is that you're not TEACHING the players how to read the display, because it really isnt that hard at all.
It's like you're making scrags no longer have to be killed by acid or fire. Because of the complaints, geezus guys TEACH them how to do it, lead them by the nose if they cant figure it out for themselves. Heres the Flaming club and heres the scrag!.
And if it's a dungeon alert thing, then that's YOUR problem. Scrags that get up from being knocked to negative hitpoints shouldnt be "active" if nobody is around to aggro them they should just stand there regenerating licking their wounds.

Same with feared stuff, when the fear dissipates they should have no aggro table. They'll just wander back home.

[phillymiket]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

Fair enough. Thank you for your response.

More than the one change was the feeling of the direction the change implied.

You have said that you are proud of D&D and don't intend on draining the roots from the game.
I believe you on that point.

Edit - MadFloyd,
Could you take a moment to address Lorien the First One's question regarding dice rolls?
Is 2-12 still 2 X (1-6) rather than a random number between 2 and 12 and also if and where there is dice "loading".
If the numbers are not always "as advertised" could you briefly explain why you feel it is important to list the probabilities one way while they operate another?
Thank you

[ConnorMacLoad]

This whole thing is pretty frustrating to me, for all the reasons said by many people in this thread. I just wanted to share a story for some.

My wife is no fan of D&D. Her step dad was a 40 year old man child that still used to transfer xp from his real life achievements to his D&D character. When I told her I was playing online D&D, she was less than happy, but she is a good women

The other day, I mentioned this change to her. I said, "you know how D&D has dice in it right."

"sorta, you use it for attacking or something right?"

"ya, you know we use more than just a six sided dice?"

"no, there is more than just one certain type?"

"Ya, there are a few. like 8 sided, 10 sided, 20 sided, etc."

"ok, so?"

"So if I were to say to you that my sword does 1d10 in damage, do you understand that?"

"Sure, it means that your sword would do the amount of damage based on the roll ofa 10 sided dice,right?"

"exactly. The people that create the game have decided that that is too complicated now, and have decided to make it 1 to 10 damage instead."

"well that is just stupid. It takes away a classic part of that game."

"EXACTLY!!!, now let's make out!"

If it took me less than 10sec to teach my wife, who admittedly hates everything to do with this game, how a dice system works. It should really take no more than 30seconds to teach any person who wants to play this game.

I wonder how much of an outrage the community would throw if the devs had of put a 30 second tutorial into korthos, explaining how the dice system works..... Judging by the need for the change, I would say the outrage would be crushing. Glad the avoided that.....

[Narmolanya]

Ummm....I see both as valid D&D notations.

When I started playing D&D (blue boxed set) all die notations were in the x-y format, not xDy format. It wasn't until AD&D that the xDy format became the most common.

As the new descriptions include both, I see no issue (apart from some descriptions becoming longer).

If we are complaining about descriptions getting longer I suggest you log onto Lama and read the tooltip for feats you already have (ie Extend).

That obsfucation is what we should be complaining about.

To be honest I don't remember how it was written in the box set, I had it but also had the core books. I started playing in 1981 so it was not a progresson from one to the other for me.

I am not arguing the point that they are not both valid notations. I am asking you if they both truely have the D&D feel that has been associated with D&D for the last 3+ decades.

[Pfamily]

New dice notation = bad.

It's naye D&D lasses and laddies...suggest you teach the confused rather than change the way it has always been.

Thx.