New Dice notation. Do not like.

[samthedagger]

If you go back in time, and I mean WAY back to OD&D, the notation for dice was a helluva lot more confusing. You saw things like 5-20, which could be generated a number of different ways, without any notation at all. So if you are nostalgic for D&D notation, remember that the xdy notation was a simplification of notation that didn't really begin to take precedence until late AD&D and 3rd edition.

But for the record, I like the xdy notation since it tells me exactly what my odds are. 6d4 and 4d6 may generate a similar range of numbers but they do so very differently and tell a much different story from 6-24 and 4-24.

[Melyc'inya]

If you go back in time, and I mean WAY back to OD&D, the notation for dice was a helluva lot more confusing. You saw things like 5-20, which could be generated a number of different ways, without any notation at all.

Yeah, I posted an article I'd found about this in the other dice notation thread, but it got locked...so, here it is again, in case anyone is interested: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...umni/20070302a

And just to add my two copper (again ), I think the best way to handle this would be to have the whole "2d6 (2-12) damage" format, along with a note at the bottom of the rusty and starter fire weapons about what it means ("2d6 means you roll two six-sided dice to determine your damage, allowing for a range of 2-12 damage"), along with a more in-depth starter hint pop-up (and possibly an explanation from an NPC) about the bell curve that rolling dice causes, and maybe why dice are used (because that's what is used in PnP), etc.

[Leadsides]

I agree with folks who say that it's not about a description (honestly, that's a minor thing to me), it's about the underlying philosophy of what this change represents. To me it's a violation of the D&D license and I'm really upset by this. I realize I'm getting all nerd ragey over what ultimately has little impact in terms of gameplay, but shifting the idea of dice to be a second-class citizen in DDO feels wrong to the core.

+1
/signed

Rather than dumbing down the system, has Turbine considered increasing new player education? Add a game of chance to the Korthos Island game introduction where a player tosses dice with Jeets. You can work in an explanation of the dice system into the dialogue, i.e. Jeets:"This is a game of chance. Roll three six sided die, or 3d6, and if the sum of the numbers is either a seventeen or eighteen, you win my money."

[shagath]

I think every point has been said, I have nothing more to add than "2 to 12" is misleading and "2d6" is not. Do not start dropping d&d heritage please. I'm playing this instead of some other mmorpg because of D&D(it's in this games name also).

[FrozenDonkeyWheel]

Ok, my question now with the statistics being mentioned above.....
Does this game, for something like 2d6, use a linear 2-12? Or is it the curve of rolling real dice?
I had always assumed since it's D&D it stuck to the dice bell curve. But, I'm beginning to think otherwise....

[Anthem]

Showing just minimum and maximum barely describes how a weapon will perform, I propose a system to convey more meaning to those unaccustomed to dice or numbers:

Damage: Just a wee bit.
Damage: A handful + one or two smidgeons.
Damage: Nothing to write home about.
Damage: Neither here nor there + a certain, Je ne sais quoi.
Damage: A dash more than a rounded tablepoon.
Damage: Fair-to-middlin'.
Damage: Bob's your uncle.
Damage: Does a bear dump in the woods?

Well-known metrics, instantly familiar to all.

[SquelchHU]

Ok, my question now with the statistics being mentioned above.....
Does this game, for something like 2d6, use a linear 2-12? Or is it the curve of rolling real dice?
I had always assumed since it's D&D it stuck to the dice bell curve. But, I'm beginning to think otherwise....

It's weighted towards the middle. But it often lies about the dice it is using. For example most evocations are NOT 1-6 a level. They are 3-6 a level (1d4+2).

So it's weighted towards the middle of the range, but this will still give better results than 1d6 because the dice themselves are weighted to the high end.

[Sarria22]

Yes there was a theatrical movie, it was SLIGHTLY better than Super Mario Bros. There was a straight to DVD sequel that is INFINITELY better, but still ends up being average as a movie. You're prolly better off watching Gamers: Dorkness Rising :3

[carlosjuero]

>.>
<.<

I own both of those movies *ducks*

[EazyWeazy]

I'm hoping that, in the next update, they add a tag to every weapon and armor that automatically says, "This gears are gooder." every time I get something better. All that math and adding stuff is just too complicated......
..
.

"This gears are gooder" LMAO +1

[Razcar]

Anyone who can't work out the concept of a d8, d10, d12 or d20 shouldn't be playing the game and should go back to W*W imo.

Leave it as it is.

Even idiots have money. And a dollar is a dollar, regardless who it came from.

[spyder7723]

I've never played wow, everquest, ultima online or any other mmo I have heard about on these forums. What I have played is dungeons and dragons. I LOVED dnd and bought every game I came across that was advertised as dnd. Remember the eye of the beholder series? Azure runes? Hillsfar? I downloaded this game the week I knew it existed. I wish I would of known about it years ago. Maybe someone should look into that thing called advertising.
Where was I. Oh yes, dungeons and dragons. Did I mention I love it? 25 years of love. Dnd has dice. You can't play dnd without dice. Its a vital part of the mechanics. It IS NOT dnd if you take my dice away!!! I will show my displeasure with my entertainment dollars. Or in this case, the dissapearance of such. I encourage all others that came here because of loyalty and ties to the dnd franchise to do the same. Wanna get a companies attention, most effective way is with your money. Stop buying tp and drop subscriptions. Then we will get our dice back. I promise you.

[Chai]

I agree that is the most unacceptable one to me as well. I know its not changing gameplay, but its taking this game away from the core of why many of us came here, the D&D franchise.

This happened 3.8 years ago, and not with the rewording of some text in descriptions. People need to accept that this game is its own entity and faces many MMO like issues.

[Chai]

I've never played wow, everquest, ultima online or any other mmo I have heard about on these forums. What I have played is dungeons and dragons. I LOVED dnd and bought every game I came across that was advertised as dnd. Remember the eye of the beholder series? Azure runes? Hillsfar? I downloaded this game the week I knew it existed. I wish I would of known about it years ago. Maybe someone should look into that thing called advertising.
Where was I. Oh yes, dungeons and dragons. Did I mention I love it? 25 years of love. Dnd has dice. You can't play dnd without dice. Its a vital part of the mechanics. It IS NOT dnd if you take my dice away!!! I will show my displeasure with my entertainment dollars. Or in this case, the dissapearance of such. I encourage all others that came here because of loyalty and ties to the dnd franchise to do the same. Wanna get a companies attention, most effective way is with your money. Stop buying tp and drop subscriptions. Then we will get our dice back. I promise you.

Threatening to vote with your wallet, but not doing so? Get in line with the rest of em. Alot of the people who have been nerdraging over the past week or so are the same ones who nerdrage over each update and threaten to leave. They are still around though, even after all updates went through.

[jwdaniels]

Seriosuly? People are complaining because they're "nerfing" the item damage notation? 1d6 and 1-6 are the exact same thing, are used interchangeably at the gaming table (at least at ours) and have been so in PnP for like 30 years (ever since they said 'hey, we can say 1d6 instead of 1-6 and 1d6+1 instead of 2-7).

If this change has your panties in a wad, you need to stop playing MMOs forever.

[Do'Urden]

Threatening to vote with your wallet, but not doing so? Get in line with the rest of em. Alot of the people who have been nerdraging over the past week or so are the same ones who nerdrage over each update and threaten to leave. They are still around though, even after all updates went through.

And many of us went Premium a long while ago so we don't have to pay Turbine another dime if they don't earn it Guess what...we still get to voice our opinions about the game and the proposed changes whether you agree and whether you classify it as 'nerdrage' or not. You're every bit as guilty of inflammatory posting as many of the folks you're criticizing. Peace.

[Sarria22]

Seriosuly? People are complaining because they're "nerfing" the item damage notation? 1d6 and 1-6 are the exact same thing, are used interchangeably at the gaming table (at least at ours) and have been so in PnP for like 30 years (ever since they said 'hey, we can say 1d6 instead of 1-6 and 1d6+1 instead of 2-7).

If this change has your panties in a wad, you need to stop playing MMOs forever.

1d6 may be the same as 1-6, but 2d6 is NOT the same as 2-12, the average roll for multiple dice is a curve with the middlemost results most likely and the most extreme results unlikely, not an even chance for any number from 2 to 12

[Deathseeker]

there is a big difference between 'don't expect anything positive' and 'I've never seen anything positive'

So you don't expect anything positive, but you agree you have seen stuff that's positive.

So...what your really trying to say is that the dev's have been exceeding your expectations! Sounds great

Seriously though, while I don't think the text change is that big of a deal, I do totally get why it annoys the heck out of many people, and especially since it is misleading in terms of the damage curve dice have that a straight random range does not.

One compromise suggestion...change the description on the Korthos lowbie items and a few other lowbie named items, but leave everything else alone. If the player can't understand the "dice" by lvl 3 or so, then they won't enjoy the other complexities that DDO has to offer beyond other MMOs.

[spyder7723]

Threatening to vote with your wallet, but not doing so? Get in line with the rest of em. Alot of the people who have been nerdraging over the past week or so are the same ones who nerdrage over each update and threaten to leave. They are still around though, even after all updates went through.

Umm. Do I know you? Do you know me? I don't think so. Pray tell, how do you have such insight into what I will or will not do? As I stated, I came here SPECIFICALLY, because it was dungeons and dragons. Without dice its NOT dungeons and dragons. Therefore, will no longer be the game I thought it was. Considering I spent the first 30 some odd years of my life not playing ANY mmo type game before discovering ddo, if ddoeu stops being dungeons and dragons, there won't be any reason to be here.

As for those that can't grasp the reasons many of us so strongly hate the idea of taking dice out of the game, you should educate yourself on how random dice work. 2d6 is NOT the same as 2-12. And 3d6 is NOT 3-18.
Then there is the whole forty freaking years of dnd history to consider. To many of us removing dice from dungeons and dragons is akin to disgracing a sports jersey. Imagine going to philadelphia game and burning an eagles uniform. Good luck getting out of that stadium alive.

[Zhiel]

2d6 gives you a probability distribution
2-12 gives you a min and a max. It is not accurate.

Agreed. Seeing the die type and amount rolled is far more helpful than seeing a range. If a range must be included, put it at the bottom. The main body of the text should however keep with D&D standards and use amount + die type.