New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Dcloak]

Ok, I understand the reasoning behind this change. You want to cater to the new players out there that don't have any DnD experience. New players who don't get frustrated, stay longer and don't quit = more business/$$$. I get it.
I'm sure new players have said that the dice descriptors are hard to understand.

There is also a majority of us who have DnD experience whether we come from other games aka Balder's gate or just have Pen and Paper experience.

This change isn't a game breaker for me. I want to let you know it is annoying to have to read through all that text (TMI!) in the description when I've been accustomed to reading the dice descriptors for many years not just with my time here in DDO.

Please make a compromise: Add an option that says something like "Enable Extended Dice Descriptions". Have it checked On by default but give us the ability to uncheck it off.

I'm not taking credit for the idea because it was suggested earlier in the thread. I wanted to reiterate it because I think it's a good compromise.

[jwdaniels]

FYI - In first edition AD&D they gave ranges as 3-12 (not 3d4) 2-8 (not 2d4) 2-7 (not 1d6+1) and I think it turned out okay.

[ripperj]

So you don't expect anything positive, but you agree you have seen stuff that's positive.

So...what your really trying to say is that the dev's have been exceeding your expectations! Sounds great

wuff, that actually makes sense in its own 'outv the box' way

it is true i have seen some small positives, but it in no way compares to the negatives

[Tilliak]

FYI - In first edition AD&D they gave ranges as 3-12 (not 3d4) 2-8 (not 2d4) 2-7 (not 1d6+1) and I think it turned out okay.

At the very beginning of that book it states, quite plainly, how those ranges are generated, though. Remove the description text and you have what Turbine has so idioticly added. 2-12 means absolutely nothing if you have no idea that to generate 2-12 you are rolling 2d6.

[spyyder976]

1d3+3 /= 1 to 6

/signed

1d3 +3 = 4 to 6

[DoctorBadWolf]

Anyone who can't work out the concept of a d8, d10, d12 or d20 shouldn't be playing the game and should go back to W*W imo.

Leave it as it is.

A hint: Most people who don't play dice games, don't have any idea what a d(anything) is. Why? Not because they're idiots, or have no comprehension of math, or any absurd thing like that. It's because life has provided them absolutely no reason to obtain that information.

It changes absolutely nothing for any of us who know what the "d" stands for. Literally nothing.


Literally the only effect is to avoid confusion for people who have never played any tabletop rpgs.

Hell, most people who are familiar with dice games like yahtzee wouldn't know what the hell the "d" stands for. Literally the only people I have ever, in my life, heard use the term "d six" when talking about a six sided die are rpg gamers. Every video game nerd I've met who wasn't into dnd, or the like, would just call them six sided dice.

[herzkos]

I've never played wow, everquest, ultima online or any other mmo I have heard about on these forums. What I have played is dungeons and dragons. I LOVED dnd and bought every game I came across that was advertised as dnd. Remember the eye of the beholder series? Azure runes? Hillsfar? I downloaded this game the week I knew it existed. I wish I would of known about it years ago. Maybe someone should look into that thing called advertising.
Where was I. Oh yes, dungeons and dragons. Did I mention I love it? 25 years of love. Dnd has dice. You can't play dnd without dice. Its a vital part of the mechanics. It IS NOT dnd if you take my dice away!!! I will show my displeasure with my entertainment dollars. Or in this case, the dissapearance of such. I encourage all others that came here because of loyalty and ties to the dnd franchise to do the same. Wanna get a companies attention, most effective way is with your money. Stop buying tp and drop subscriptions. Then we will get our dice back. I promise you.

uhhm, first DnD set i played with didn't have dice. It came with little chits, that if i remember correctly, you had
to number yourself. we used a bowl to hold the chits in and "rolled" by pulling a chit out of the bowl. It got kind of
rough with all the different dice combinations converted to seperate bowls.

[FreudoBaggins]

To sum up, I see two main objections to this change:
1) the new description is misleading and confusing, and
2) I hate it / it's not D&D / Turbine is dumbing down DDO / I learned it, why can't they?

Objection 1 has been well-articulated in many ways; objection 2 needs to be clarified.

Objection 2 is all about identity.

I think it's safe to say that DDO is unlike any other fantasy MMORPG currently available. People who like DDO, who have played for a long time, who have put lots of time and effort into this game have chosen to stick with it for those characteristics which separate it from all the other MMORPGs available. It speaks to the kind of game they like and also to the kind of player and person they are [intelligent, interested, inquiring -- I'm sure the players can flesh this out].

For example, there is a strong anti-WoW sentiment in the forums, which speaks more to the kind of person a DDO player thinks they are and are not than to WoW itself. DDO and DDO players characterize themselves positively and also in opposition to a view of WoW and WoW players (accurate or not); it helps us to define ourselves in opposition to something people know and understand.



The discussion in this thread shows that changes like "eliminating the dice" strikes very deeply at the identity of DDO and its players. Turbine should tread very carefully when it comes to messing with the identity of its game. If DDO is no longer DDO, then there is very little to make it different from any other fantasy MMORPG. DDO becomes not a unique product, but a commodity, to be evaluated on price alone.

To put it in terms a "suit" would understand, Turbine is proposing a fundamental change to it's DDO "brand". When Coke changed to taste like Pepsi, the Coke drinkers no longer had their distinct product, and the Pepsi drinkers had no reason to change to Coke - they already had their soda, and their identity as "not Coke drinkers".



If this is coming from WB, Turbine has to realize that too many notes make the outcome blander and more formulaic, and WB has to trust that Turbine knows what it is doing. There is a great temptation for WB execs to "do" something, because that is what they do. Otherwise, what's the point of paying them? Well, for God's sakes, don't do something, just stand there!



Identity is fundamental, it is primal, it is so very often not rational. Turbine, if my analysis is correct, weakening the core things that make DDO llok and feel different from all the other games out there is very delicate ground.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

FYI - In first edition AD&D they gave ranges as 3-12 (not 3d4) 2-8 (not 2d4) 2-7 (not 1d6+1) and I think it turned out okay.

Actually it didn't work out well, everyone house ruled it differently because they didn't understand the difference between the multiple ways you could generate 2-8 (for example, one DM I had used 1D8, reroll on 1. There is a reason they dumped that system about a quarter century ago.

[itatchi83]

Ideally, I would like both the probability range, and the Max/min shown.
This would be better for both newer players and vets alike.

[SisAmethyst]

Ideally, I would like both the probability range, and the Max/min shown.
This would be better for both newer players and vets alike.

The only reason I can see why someone want a quick notation like 2-12 instead of 2d6 is to have an avearage feeling of how a weapon compare to another. But for this we already have the caluclated avearage in the Base Damage description. It is the big fat number. If somone not want to bother about the dices, this number is enough to tell him if this weapon is better than an other. But if he really want to go in the details and calculate his own DPS, then the quick notation like 2-12 will tell him right nothing, then he need the dices anyway.

[eulogy098]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Suggestion- No change, the current description is more clear than even the most perfect of crystal

Aspect i like- It takes the one-sitting learning curve off for total new players

Aspecit i dont like- A change is totally nonsensical as the description is already spot-on absolutely perfect. Even those totally new to DnD (my fiance) were able to learn what 2d6 meant in just one game sitting.

Changing the descriptions or adding a "2 to 12 damage is what 2d6 means" text is just more clutter in an all ready very full, uncustomizable interface.


Im not a huge, long time PnP DnD player... I've definitely spent dramatically more time playing DDO in the last year than PnP in my entire life. So when i tell you that the "xDy" description really is the most clear and easy way to understand a roll, its from someone with very little connection to pen and paper gaming.

[RoboVanguard]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm sure it's been mentioned about the probability distributions when you use dice as opposed to a 2-12 notation... but descriptions aside, I'd be ok with it if it were another line underneath the die description, so that it caters to both types of players. However, I should hope the core functions will not operate on a 2-12 equal probability distribution instead of the 2d6 distribution. Either way I never really bothered reading the distributions and know most of the base weapon damage die by heart anyway.

[lolwatboomer]

Showing just minimum and maximum barely describes how a weapon will perform, I propose a system to convey more meaning to those unaccustomed to dice or numbers:

Damage: Just a wee bit.
Damage: A handful + one or two smidgeons.
Damage: Nothing to write home about.
Damage: Neither here nor there + a certain, Je ne sais quoi.
Damage: A dash more than a rounded tablepoon.
Damage: Fair-to-middlin'.
Damage: Bob's your uncle.
Damage: Does a bear dump in the woods?

Well-known metrics, instantly familiar to all.

rofl

+r

[Rumbaar]

Problem I see is that it also doesn't give all the information

2d6 +6 = 8 - 18
1d12 +6 = 7 - 18

Knowing that +6 and it's 2d6 and not 1d12 determines a lot!

2d6, 1d6 per cast level max 15d6
2-12, 1-6 per cast level max 15-90

I don't see the second line being easier to read or understand. Compared to the first line.

[jazztromboneguy]

I wanted to carry this over from a similar discussion on a related post. I thought it was relevant, while not completely restating something that has been already been said:

If so, the new notation is correct and we need to rethink our assumptions about items/spells with the understanding that it is an even distribution and not a nominal distribution.

Since no one wants to roll 2000 times for a random sample that's accurate 95/100 times, dev clarification on this would be very welcome.

I think this is one of the most valid talking points in this discussion regarding the recent "dice rolling" changes. On one side you have the "keep it in the tradition of D&D" and the other side you have the devs trying to simplify the process of understanding (a side that I do not see a whole lot of supporters. This could be due to the fact that the people who are ok with this are just not posting anything.)

So regarding the quote above: Which does our DDO system currently use and do the new descriptive changes better represent it? If the new changes better represent how things actually work, then we have to chalk the change up to the classic "this is not the turn based PnP DnD, but rather a hybrid system" reasoning that has been in discussion on the forums since Module 1.

By the way, I do not condone anyone who says the devs are doing this to "help the dumb ex-WoW players." As a long time PnP D&D player and a long time DDO player, I welcome anyone into the game that likes the feel and social aspects of D&D that make this MMO special. I just beg the devs to keep striving that when they make changes to the system, that they always keep in mind the feel of D&D.

[SisAmethyst]

...
So regarding the quote above: Which does our DDO system currently use and do the new descriptive changes better represent it? If the new changes better represent how things actually work, then we have to chalk the change up to the classic "this is not the turn based PnP DnD, but rather a hybrid system" reasoning that has been in discussion on the forums since Module 1...

Well, I already posted in teh other forum. Sure I not have the insight, nor do I claim to know it but lets see:

1. We have the command /roll that simulate a rolling dice -> code is implemented to intrepret dices
2. The Base Damage Description of a Weapon is a calculated value on the given dice notation and the critical multiplier -> code is implemented to interpret dices and crit ranges and calculate the exact statisticaly avearage
3. Statistically adding all the weapon and sneak attack bonus with a couple of dices will finally result in a totaly different avearge value as when using just rnd(12)+1 for a 2d6 ,then really calculating the dice. But the DPS spreedsheet calculations are not that far off as they would be if it is just a plain random function.

... so given the above three points let me assuem that the code is using dices.

[phillymiket]

<snip>

What could a trombone player possibly know about representing something accurately?



(Just a joke guy - one of my fav instruments - don't get your bone in a knot)

[LoveNeverFails]

I've never played wow, everquest, ultima online or any other mmo I have heard about on these forums. What I have played is dungeons and dragons. I LOVED dnd and bought every game I came across that was advertised as dnd. Remember the eye of the beholder series? Azure runes? Hillsfar? I downloaded this game the week I knew it existed. I wish I would of known about it years ago. Maybe someone should look into that thing called advertising.
Where was I. Oh yes, dungeons and dragons. Did I mention I love it? 25 years of love. Dnd has dice. You can't play dnd without dice. Its a vital part of the mechanics. It IS NOT dnd if you take my dice away!!! I will show my displeasure with my entertainment dollars. Or in this case, the dissapearance of such. I encourage all others that came here because of loyalty and ties to the dnd franchise to do the same. Wanna get a companies attention, most effective way is with your money. Stop buying tp and drop subscriptions. Then we will get our dice back. I promise you.

for every DnD fan out there who takes away their money, there are about 5 non DnD fans out there who will gladly take your place. In the grand scheme of things, I don't really think pouting will get the dev's attention. Sorry to be the one to tell ya.

[Rooks]

What about telling new players what dice mean in a simple HINT that pops up upon creation?

We still have hints in game right? haven't had mine turned on in forever, so not sure.

Seems it would be easier and less coding to put in a simple mandatory Hint rather than redescribe every item and spell in the game.