New Dice notation. Do not like.

[kingfisher]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

look, i know your just following the rules and all, but come on. 'i dont like it' and 'change it back' are perfectly good forms of feedback. it IS better the old way, so reversing it is (lol) 'actionable'.

and btw, actionable? next are you going to tell me your 'efforting' a lag fix with 'acceptable collateral damage' to the combat system?

it seems to me that you guys are caving to the pressure of the noobnation out there. dont forget, they came HERE to play YOUR GAME. making them feel welcome and showing them the ropes is 100% do-able and ok with everyone involved. changing the game itself to accomodate them is not ok with lots of us. This is a DnD game, based on DnD rules. you change that and its something different, something lesser. maybe that is fine and that is the direction that turbine wants to head. if so fine, stop calling it DnD. i think that you guys need to put nerfgate5 on hold, get together over some bacon and lemonade and decide if this is still going to be the same game or not.

[LordPiglet]

D&D is based on dice.

We even have a little die in the UI that we can change colors. The people who originally wrote the game understood that while a MMO could never be like PNP they at least tried to keep with the proper flavor or things.

Why sot be simple if you need to help the newbs.

3d6 (3-18) pts of damage. DO we really need to have all the additional text twice?

That is worst case.... best case is a simple explanation in the tips at the very beginning of the game.

This, why not add it to the tutorial. Make it a tool tip when you select your very first weapon, heck, make it pop up again when you select your reward at the end of the Grotto. At worst use something like "3d6 (3-18) pts of damage".

[Lorien_the_First_One]

LOL I know this It's good to have old school D&D'ers around :-D

Hey, I remember the REAL monks. Where you could only have one monk per alignment of each of the high levels and where all monks had thief skills (although it took more xp to level them). Of course that was back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, /bad scottish accent on "no stinking 1, 2, 3, 3.5"

[Lorien_the_First_One]

look, i know your just following the rules and all, but come on. 'i dont like it' and 'change it back' are perfectly good forms of feedback. it IS better the old way, so reversing it is (lol) 'actionable'. .

At one point she blogged a really good description of 'actionable' feedback. Probably should have been stickied in the forums somewhere we could find it

[MarcusCole]

Thanks for keeping this going. Turbine needs to understand this, and I think they might be finally getting the idea.... (maybe)

[Dcurd]

I like the idea of simplifying the descriptions, but they are a little awkward currently.

At some point I would love if whatever technical limitation is in place that prevents the actual effective numbers to be shown in the tooltip. By this I mean if a caster buffs me the buff icon is worthless unless I check the casters stats (could still be off due to spell level enhancing items?), or check whatever areas of my character sheet it was supposed to affect.

IF that got adjusted, I would love the new numbers to display just show effective damage, and then below that, the traditional D&D dice text

This spell deals 5-30 damage.

Spell deals 5d6 damage per caster level, max 5d6.

Succinct, clear, and still maintains D&D flavor.

[timewalker]

Hey, I remember the REAL monks. Where you could only have one monk per alignment of each of the high levels and where all monks had thief skills (although it took more xp to level them). Of course that was back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, /bad scottish accent on "no stinking 1, 2, 3, 3.5"

holy hell, how did i forget that, had to break out my old books.

thanx for the walk down memory lane there

[Ethias]

I wouldn't mind simplifying descriptions, but do so without removing the xdx flavor. For one, it conveys useful information that is not contained by x to x damage. For two, it is simply part of DDO's flavor.

If you really demand it, I would suggest manually adding "This weapon does X to X damage" to the newbie weapons give out in the starter quest. This should answer most people's "What does 1d12?" questions on korthos.

[Grond]

I've honestly seen so many iterrations of damage descriptions through various RPGs that '4-24' translates to '4d6' to me without thinking about it. *shrug* This change doesn't bother me at all, but I know sometimes cosmetic changes bug people.

[Sweetsoul86]

As I had said in the last thread...

I love the dice system. I think adding these hints to korthos gear would be useful. I also feel the die system is fundamental to d&d and is part of what we love...I still have my first set of die which I bought because it matched a nail polish I had when I was 12 years old. (It's blue and sparkly...yes I'm gamer girl :P)

Many of the posts in this thread have shown similar advice to what I posted before which was pretty much as follows:

What I like about the change: Well changing the colour of the text was about the only thing I actually liked.

What I dislike: I dislike putting our dice on the back burner of our information, particularly on high level gear.

Suggestion: I think that Korthos and maybe harbor gear could have these little descriptions/tips at the bottom that explain "1d6 means you roll a six sided die for the outcome" It's a simple solution and I'm sure it would help many of the new players who are unfamiliar with such a system.

-Hint bubbles at the tutorial would be another good way of explaining it.

-Or maybe having Jeets give a brief explanation like, "when you look at your weapon you will see damage listed as 1d6, this means a 6 sided die is rolled to determine your damage."

It's certainly not needed throughout every level, players will learn quickly enough in lower levels and carry that knowledge into higher levels.

Many of us who have played d&d for a long time or even some who have only played for a few years or less love our dice greatly and it's something that makes this game so unique for a lot of us. We came to this game because it's a wonderful representation of d&d a game many gamers love. Of course we understand that non pnp players play this game and we want them to understand it as well, but we'd like to introduce them to d&d and it's flavor rather than just sweep that aside for them. I'm sure that if they were given the chance to learn about it many of the people who are having difficulties would love this system as much as those of us who already know it do.

I think taking the opportunity from new players to fall in love with d&d the way 40yrs of gamers have is unfair to them. I completely understand why you're looking at these changes and I know that you're doing what's best for the game as a whole but I think simply adding something to the tutorial or tips in the beginning could make a huge difference and leave the need for changes in higher levels unnecessary.

If in the end you decide that adding these descriptions to all gear is what's best then I must agree with the previous statements, at least allow us to toggle it off so that those of us who understand the d20 system aren't constantly having to rethink what we're reading.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[dragonruler]

I've honestly seen so many iterrations of damage descriptions through various RPGs that '4-24' translates to '4d6' to me without thinking about it. *shrug* This change doesn't bother me at all, but I know sometimes cosmetic changes bug people.

I think most people would agree it's the principle of the matter. Turbine is changing a concept that has been with D&D rules since the very beginning. They can not simply alter something that has been around for ages. I'm sure Gary (may he rest in peace) would be shaking his head in disapproval at Turbine right now.

[amethystdragon]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Due to issues with being able to transfer characters to the test server, then an issue with my data for the test server some how being corrupted and now reinstalling, I have not had a chance to actually look at all of this. So I can not say if there is anything that I truly like or dislike about this change. However I feel I can say something about your first point. Why do we need to make the numbers clearer than they already are? I just sat here and asked my 10 year old son, who has never played an RPG of any kind, if you roll a 1D6 whats the highest you are going to get, then what is the lowest you are going to get; guess what, he knew simply because he knows his math.

As many people have stated, taking away the D20 (or making it look like an after thought) takes away the DnD feel to the game. I ask that you reconsider this change. I can not give any advice on how to make the number text clearer, simple because I do not know what the exact complaints about the text have been; and for the life of me I honestly have a hard time believing that anyone with basic math skills would not understand that 1d6 means anywhere from 1 to 6 points. I am not trying to be mean, I just do not understand why this change was needed in the first place.

[Alleyna]

As I had said in the last thread...

I love the dice system. I think adding these hints to korthos gear would be useful and the die system is fundamental to d&d and is part of what we love...I still have my first set of die which I bought because it matched a nail polish I had when I was 12 years old. (It's blue and sparkly...yes I'm gamer girl :P)

...

Not to derail this thread because I think the topic is really important, but, I also have a set of blue sparkly dice, with a matching set of 12d6s

/derail off

[Gratch]

Look... you're not fooling the ex WoW players with these non-dice changes. Try harder - like this:

You could just put in a WoW-filter UI option... and intelligently turn it on. WoW players expect large and exponentially increasing numbers as levels escalate that aren't necessarily self consistent - due to all them "systems" in between. So just take all the DDO #'s and multiply by 2 to the power of the item's level or the character's level.

Hence thosegloves of +2 strength at level 5 are actually: gloves of + 64 strength and the L15 warrior... err fighter didn't just crit for 150, he crited for 4915200.

Big crazy #'s all over the screen. That's what you need.

[Belowme]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear put these terms in the /glossary perhaps? Update/fix the glossary (i have never found one thing i was looking for using the in game glossary OR compendium) or even the compendium and point new players in that direction? And if you can't be bothered with that, how about putting in an option to turn off the Carebear Candyland Text for those of us that wish to hold on to SOME semblence of a D&D experience?
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most What is there TO like? This is just wrong on such a subversive level.
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least from some of the pictures I've seen, you're putting the carebear text FIRST and FOREMOST. So those of us that appreciate little nuances like n-d-n numbers in giving us the D&D experience have to hold our noses and swallow this because the "new players" are too lazy to type in a few keywords into an online search engine? If they can't understand and don't want to bother learning BASIC D&D conventions, WHY are they playing THIS game?

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

There is no reason to dillute the theme in this, or any other manner. Maybe it's me but i feel if this one slides through, where will it end? Was this game built to bring a D&D experience to life, or has it become nothing more then a cash cow with some D&D name brand stickers duct taped on? Is the pride gone?

[krud]

Make it better: no need; it is not needed 2d6 or 5d8 or whatever it just fine the way it is. If you must "make the text more clear" then do something like 2d6 (2-12) they way it is done on most weapons descriptions now.

/agreed

Keep the (x)d(y) notations

Don't you think new people will find the entire system rather confusing and arbitrary when they see all these damage ranges that don't seem to follow any particular order or reason?

"2-7"
"2-8"
"1-10"
"2-12"
"3-12"
"6-36"

"Where the heck do they come up with these?"

"Why don't they just use the metric system?"

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

like the new colors.

Don't like the double explanation - stick to 1d6 and just explain the dice somewhere else e.g. a glossary entry or a tooltip or a page on the compendium.

Better than this would be floaty text over the spell icon giving you expected damage based on your current feat/enhancement/items.

In fact, I suggested this here.

Garth

[lutherl]

Upon consideration, I'd have to say that of all the new "things" people would need to learn about this game, the xdy system is probably the easiest. Given the hate and discontent the concept is raising, is it really worth it to change, especially when the change can prove to be misleading?

[rest]

"It says 1-6. One minus six is negative five. I'M DOING NEGATIVE 5 DAMAGE!!"
(Assuming they knew about negative numbers. Not likely, I'd wager.)

When those people start coming to play, how will you update you "damage numbers" then? You keep making everything dumber, you'll start attracting dumber and dumber people. Self-fulfilling prophecy, downward spiral yadda yadda yadda.

[Temko]

this isn;'t a matter of the system change it's a matter of both ease of use and principle:

current system:
1d6 Vs. 1 to 6 damage
x3 Vs a triple increase in damage on a critial hit

...need i go on?
Longer tekst, that is less obvious at a glace, a pain to read and annoying to comprehend with more change of errors slipping through.

it's hard to break 1d6, sure 1s6 might get fat-fingered someday at the office, but if nothing else it's noticed on lam. noticed a 5 paragraph block of tekst for errors is a lot more annoying.

i like the collor, how about 1d6 (pretty blue color over it)?