Do not remove Galncing Blows while moving.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

My suggestion to change THF would be something like this.

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.
Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Idk, sounds ok to me. It could be even more powerful, but just allowing the feats to take the progression of x1.75, x2, x2.25, x2.5 with your strength modifier to damage.

This seems quite interesting. Shame it'll most likely never happen.

[BlackSteel]

Glancing blows is really an off the wall made up mechanic, however I understand where you are coming from.

To put things more in line with pnp THF should have been made to do more damage through your strength.

As in, spend a feat and receive more than strength and a half on attacks.

Whirlwind attack was supposed to be the attack that hit multiple mobs, but now there is cleave and great cleave that do the same kind of thing. You can use these feats while moving by the way.

My suggestion to change THF would be something like this.

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.
Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Idk, sounds ok to me. It could be even more powerful, but just allowing the feats to take the progression of x1.75, x2, x2.25, x2.5 with your strength modifier to damage.

I probably would have went with something like this in a pnp game.

Edit: I just noticed that this kind of splits the major two handed users up. While barbarians would benefit more from the strength but lack of feats leave them a bit short, the fighter could easily become a whiling ball of multiple mob attacks. Interesting.

would be more useful than the **** the feats will be when the update goes live. But unlikely to happen as they screwed the pooch on the frenzied berzerker implementation too. Heres looking at you Improved Power Attack.

[Aesop]

Well I'm not fond of having no Glancing Blows on moving, but I understand a reduced state. Currently its 50% moving vs 75% standing still.

Instead maybe it should be reduced a bit to be 25% Moving vs 75% Standing still.

another possible "fix" to Twitch style is to increase the time between early attacks and decrease the time between later attacks...

so lets say currently the attack sequence is something like

-
1
-
-
2
-
-
-
3
-
-
-
4

instead make it

-
1
-
-
-
2
-
-
-
3
-
-
4

with a each segment being a unit of time of approximately that same length

so the time between attack 1 and 2 is greater the time between attack 4 and 1

and the attack time between 2 and 3 is greater than the attack time between 3 and 4


that would reduce the desire to have chain breaks... thus reducing the twitch desire... now the thing is that Mobile Combat makes sense... but most people twitching aren't actually utilizing mobile combat they are shuffling in place in order to get a greater number of attacks...


Aesop

[Aschbart]

I don't have any problem with Turbine nerfs moving in (melee) combat. Nor with removing glancing blows entirely (altough that would require another major overhaul of the combat system) They should, then, however severely nerf Mobs' evasiveness as well, especially their habit to move around all the time, even straight melees like kobold warriors!

It doesn't make sense that melees get penalized for chasing after mobs who do nothing but moving all the time themselves! Do these mobs get the same penalties as well? If so, why do they do it? If not, how is that fair?

Also the tips from the Khortos NPCs should be severely adjusted! If you stay on the same place all the time, letting the ranged mobs and casters having a fine time shooting you, you'll be dead in seconds! The only way to survive a mixed group of mobs is goign after the casters and ranged - guess what it takes? Right! Even if you don't chase ranged mobs, it's tactically sound to constantly move out of the way of strong enemy's swings, just like casters and ranged mobs constantly hop out of players' range. And if you're fighting more than one opponent it's even more important to move: if at least one of them is ranged, to get out of their line of fire, and if not, to keep one of them always between you and the other mob(s). That way you get hit less often, and require less healing, or can even do wihtout any. Anyone but a tank will quickly die if he doesn't constantly move, and even a tank should move most of the time - he doesn't even care about attack penalties anyway.

[Aesop]

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.

Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.

Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.

Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Not bad... BUT ... get rid of Superior THF and move things down a bit

THF 1.75x Str
ITHF Improved Tactics
GTHF 2x Str


THey should not and are not implimenting STHF nor STWF (at least that was the last word from Eladrin) even though I believe it was on Lamannia.

Aesop

[Aschbart]

THey should not and are not implimenting STHF nor STWF (at least that was the last word from Eladrin) even though I believe it was on Lamannia.

Aesop

Erm.... STWF is already on the feat list on Lamannia! I've seen it on the feat list by showing unavailable feats. I have no character who'd qualify for it, so no idea if it actually can be taken, but there's no indication that it wouldn't be possible.

[Deathseeker]

My theory as to why they did this (not saying I agree, just trying to guess their logic)

1. They wanted to nerf twitching without going through the effort of reworking the attack sequence
2. Glancing blows likely require a physics check, which they are attributing some of the lag problems to
3. With Bastard Swords/DA now getting glancing blows, they probably were even more concerned that items 1 and 2 above needed to be addressed.

Not saying they are right or wrong on the above, but I believe that's the logic they were probably using.

[Xeraphim]

Each glancing blow requires a physics check.

Ding! We have a winrar.

[Xeraphim]

Well I'm not fond of having no Glancing Blows on moving, but I understand a reduced state. Currently its 50% moving vs 75% standing still.

Instead maybe it should be reduced a bit to be 25% Moving vs 75% Standing still.

another possible "fix" to Twitch style is to increase the time between early attacks and decrease the time between later attacks...

so lets say currently the attack sequence is something like

-
1
-
-
2
-
-
-
3
-
-
-
4

instead make it

-
1
-
-
-
2
-
-
-
3
-
-
4

with a each segment being a unit of time of approximately that same length

so the time between attack 1 and 2 is greater the time between attack 4 and 1

and the attack time between 2 and 3 is greater than the attack time between 3 and 4


that would reduce the desire to have chain breaks... thus reducing the twitch desire... now the thing is that Mobile Combat makes sense... but most people twitching aren't actually utilizing mobile combat they are shuffling in place in order to get a greater number of attacks...


Aesop

Basically... yes.

It makes no sense that attack 1 and 2 would be the fastest, and has deserved a fix for a long time.

[Aesop]

Erm.... STWF is already on the feat list on Lamannia! I've seen it on the feat list by showing unavailable feats. I have no character who'd qualify for it, so no idea if it actually can be taken, but there's no indication that it wouldn't be possible.

read to the end of the sentence

It is on Lammania BUT Eladrin said that we showed him the light and wouldn't be using STWF... in the BIG thread... Lamannia is just a preview and test server. Things can and do change from there

Aesop

[GhoulsTouch]

Glancing blows is really an off the wall made up mechanic, however I understand where you are coming from.

To put things more in line with pnp THF should have been made to do more damage through your strength.

As in, spend a feat and receive more than strength and a half on attacks.

Whirlwind attack was supposed to be the attack that hit multiple mobs, but now there is cleave and great cleave that do the same kind of thing. You can use these feats while moving by the way.

My suggestion to change THF would be something like this.

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.
Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Idk, sounds ok to me. It could be even more powerful, but just allowing the feats to take the progression of x1.75, x2, x2.25, x2.5 with your strength modifier to damage.

.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Funny guy

[TiranBlade]

Ok to pass along something Eladrin has in his original post for the Combat Feedback thread. Glancing Blows soon will have a revamp similar to the one they just did for TWF. It will give percentage chance of a glancing blow on all THF attacks, including movement, the reason it was removed from movement was because of resources it needed to run it. They are trying to remove the physics checks on specific attacks and have apply to all instead to use less data to run each individual character.

[donotdirect1]

Not bad... BUT ... get rid of Superior THF and move things down a bit

THF 1.75x Str
ITHF Improved Tactics
GTHF 2x Str


THey should not and are not implimenting STHF nor STWF (at least that was the last word from Eladrin) even though I believe it was on Lamannia.

Aesop

Sure, I was just trying to spread it out a bit. Glad a few people liked the idea. I like the idea of giving two handed fighters destruction and save or be shaken, because that is one area where THF really sucks. Effects. For the most part a THF just wants to wield his biggest, baddest weapon and doesn't have any room for effects.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Funny guy

Not sure why it's so funny...

I think some people genuinely liked my idea.

PS. I was a 3.0-3.5 DM since it's release until just less than a year ago.

PPS. I don't even play a two handed user but would like to see some real improvement before I try it.

[DagazUlf]

All I know is that this nerfage kills 3 of my most beloved characters, and I really hope some compromise can come about (whether it be glancing blows, more damage, changed feats, cooldown timers, whatever).

[mediocresurgeon]

Ok to pass along something Eladrin has in his original post for the Combat Feedback thread. Glancing Blows soon will have a revamp similar to the one they just did for TWF. It will give percentage chance of a glancing blow on all THF attacks, including movement, the reason it was removed from movement was because of resources it needed to run it. They are trying to remove the physics checks on specific attacks and have apply to all instead to use less data to run each individual character.

I really wish this was the case, but after searching the Dev Tracker I am unable to find a post that confirms this.

EDIT:

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

Eladrin, I don't want to have to play a broken combat style. Either fix the Glancing Blows to work like you want, or leave them alone. We THFers are going to have to deal with an underpowered combat style for an entire Update (or longer, depending on how much TWF ends up hogging the spotlight) if this change goes through. A slight nerf to TWF and leaving THF broken is not going to have the desired effect of:

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.

Instead, it ill make absolutely sure that TWF (even in its nerfed state) is going to remain the dominant DPS style.

[BlackSteel]

I really wish this was the case, but after searching the Dev Tracker I am unable to find a post that confirms this.

right here bud, its near the end of the original combat changes post, I suck with quotes, so just copy/pasting:

eladrin:
It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

[Emili]

Each glancing blow requires a physics check.

This is why... They claim to remove such as above.

Just get rid of glancing blows. The first thing I thought when I started flailing around with a greataxe was "*** is going on, why am I hitting things twice with one swing?" They were a horrible idea in the first place. Just drop them.

Also get rid of twitching, why the heck do you swing faster while moving than when not? Again it makes no sense and is counter to PnP.

Likewise fix haste to only give extra attacks while stationary to be more in line with PnP. Running around flailing with a sword and being as effective as someone who is actually focused on fighting is a 4E stupidism.

It made sence here as these were a made up feat ... a feat chain should have some form of merit to it. Whirlwind in PnP was of importance - not here. Cleave, great cleave and spring attack all have importance in PnP - far from it here. Why? Well DDO is real time and fast paced... movement is more prevalent in DDO then on a table top.

The largest oversight in game was and still is the attack sequences being out of sync...

Table top micro-manage attacks on cue within a turn ... yes 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 the beat (attack swing) is in line and thus feel like on the beats of a drum played by Buddy Rich...

DDO's drummer however be more akin a two-year-old with a hairbrush in one hand, a stuffed bunny in the other and a full nappy ... TWF feel is this 1 & 2 . & 3 . . . & 4 while THF feel is such 1 . . 2 . . . 3 . . . . 4.

The issue is SnB, TwF and ThF all follow different meter. There is a grave difference in the beat the two carry fact is if we took SnB, Twf, and Thf cue them in you'd find all three are playing a totally different tune as they're all striking on entirely different beats. If the three were playing a 12 bar blues they would not finish together as they are playing at different tempos... The SnB would finish the tune first followed by the twf and then the thf. I know may seem an analogy you may not grasp... put it bluntly in DnD terms ThF and even TwF rounds are longer then SnB rounds.

[BlackSteel]

This is why...

cant be true, simply b/c glancings are still in the game, and at the same proc rate for autoattack. taking them away from twitch only doesnt make sense for the lag boat, its simply a direct nerf

[Emili]

cant be true, simply b/c glancings are still in the game, and at the same proc rate for autoattack. taking them away from twitch only doesnt make sense for the lag boat, its simply a direct nerf

You misunderstand my post I was in agreement with the first ... and explaining to the second poster that ThF is indeed out of tempo with SnB and TwF in his precious DnD table-top rounds.

[justagame]

This kills far more than just twitching. As I mentioned in another thread, consider a KOTC paladin. The PRE and capstone effects proc on all glancing blows -- this just got obliterated, because with the exception of surrounded raid bosses, combat involves moving. And this was to "balance" the TWF reduction? (which STILL had greater dps than THF). This is so much more of a nerf than what TWF got it isn't even funny.