Do not remove Galncing Blows while moving.

[oweieie]

Ding! We have a winrar.

A) It shouldn't since you only get a glancing on the main target if your main swing can land, so they'd be making the exact same check twice in a row, which obviously makes no sense.

B) You know a modern PC can make several million of those physics checks in a second, right? Unless Turbine is running every DDO server and every LotR server off one CPU, it really doesn't matter.

[R0cksteady]

What should obviously happen is they should find a way to remove twitching and stop it from causing more attacks, and then restore glancing blows while moving.

[eulogy098]

Im still wondering why so many people think that TWF should be doing more DPS than THF. Crafting weapon cost is not relevant as gaining the benefit of additional potential stats adds enough benefit to cancel that penalty out. TWF does NOT require more feats than THF.


I have THF toons and TWF toons. There's no reason for TWF to outmatch THF, ever.

[R0cksteady]

Im still wondering why so many people think that TWF should be doing more DPS than THF. Crafting weapon cost is not relevant as gaining the benefit of additional potential stats adds enough benefit to cancel that penalty out. TWF does NOT require more feats than THF.


I have THF toons and TWF toons. There's no reason for TWF to outmatch THF, ever.

Lower to-hit (Matters a bit on epic for a lot of builds), dex requirement (sucks ass for a lot of builds that would benefit a lot more from maxing strength and con then taking intelligence).

Also, it really does make a big difference for green steel, since when goign for DPS you don't put stat adds on greensteel, you put DPS effects.

[eulogy098]

Lower to-hit (Matters a bit on epic for a lot of builds), dex requirement (sucks ass for a lot of builds that would benefit a lot more from maxing strength and con then taking intelligence).

Also, it really does make a big difference for green steel, since when goign for DPS you don't put stat adds on greensteel, you put DPS effects.

Having 15 dex is not a penalty all. Reflex save and AC (for 90% of the game content) is worthwhile.

If i could have the benefit of getting stats from two green steel weapons on my THF even having only one actually do damage, i would. Getting to hold two GS weapons is a benefit across the board, never a penalty. tier 3 blast effects do buttkiss for dps, there are other things you can put there.

[Asketes]

To put things more in line with pnp THF should have been made to do more damage through your strength.

As in, spend a feat and receive more than strength and a half on attacks.

Whirlwind attack was supposed to be the attack that hit multiple mobs, but now there is cleave and great cleave that do the same kind of thing. You can use these feats while moving by the way.

My suggestion to change THF would be something like this.

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.
Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Idk, sounds ok to me. It could be even more powerful, but just allowing the feats to take the progression of x1.75, x2, x2.25, x2.5 with your strength modifier to damage.

I probably would have went with something like this in a pnp game.

Edit: I just noticed that this kind of splits the major two handed users up. While barbarians would benefit more from the strength but lack of feats leave them a bit short, the fighter could easily become a whiling ball of multiple mob attacks. Interesting.

hmm.. maybe i like this

[R0cksteady]

Having 15 dex is not a penalty all. Reflex save and AC (for 90% of the game content) is worthwhile.

If i could have the benefit of getting stats from two green steel weapons on my THF even having only one actually do damage, i would. Getting to hold two GS weapons is a benefit across the board, never a penalty. tier 3 blast effects do buttkiss for dps, there are other things you can put there.

Having the dex may not be a penalty, but there are definitely better places for those points for a lot of DPS builds. A bit higher for reflex saves aren't as useful in my opinion as more skill points and combat expertise. And AC is definitely not useful for most builds meant for high DPS.

[TiranBlade]

Ok to pass along something Eladrin has in his original post for the Combat Feedback thread. Glancing Blows soon will have a revamp similar to the one they just did for TWF. It will give percentage chance of a glancing blow on all THF attacks, including movement, the reason it was removed from movement was because of resources it needed to run it. They are trying to remove the physics checks on specific attacks and have apply to all instead to use less data to run each individual character.

I really wish this was the case, but after searching the Dev Tracker I am unable to find a post that confirms this.

Here you go.

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

That's the info he gave on it. I'm expecting and hoping it will happen in the future.

[Emili]

Having 15 dex is not a penalty all. Reflex save and AC (for 90% of the game content) is worthwhile.

If i could have the benefit of getting stats from two green steel weapons on my THF even having only one actually do damage, i would. Getting to hold two GS weapons is a benefit across the board, never a penalty. tier 3 blast effects do buttkiss for dps, there are other things you can put there.

Having the dex may not be a penalty, but there are definitely better places for those points for a lot of DPS builds. A bit higher for reflex saves aren't as useful in my opinion as more skill points and combat expertise. And AC is definitely not useful for most builds meant for high DPS.

eulogy098 you are mistaken R0cksteady is totally correct... outside few builds like monks or exploiter builds the AC reflex gained by most all build classes cannot close near the gaps of a SnB - even exploiter cannot compete with the AC of a buffed defender turtled down ... and when they do they're running under CE losing 5 damage on a swing... 10 swings nears 100 less damage average when for 5 more AC when you could be running with PA on.

This is a pure kensai - buffed in gtwf mode ... 24 dex means near nothing here ... do you really suppose that 49 ac and the +2 reflex save over a defender tank is of any real use? WRONG!



twf kotc no significant ac nor any great reflex comes of it in practice... and then rogue, FvS, Bards etc... none of these can build significant AC or reflex to matter... MY THF barb is just as well off in AC and reflex as my TWF characters with the exception where some with 30 dex may have evasion for spells... 24 dex is a pitance...

If twf and thf were so much near the same ... there would be no reason to build a twf kensai, kotc, you'd be much better off with a THF then etc... only monks and a few builds like exploiter would be of any use as them.

[R0cksteady]

eulogy098 you are mistaken R0cksteady is totally correct... outside two builds a monk or an exploiter the AC reflex gained by most all build classes cannot close near the gaps of a SnB

This is a pure kensai - buffed in gtwf mode ... 24 dex means near nothing here ... do you really suppose that 49 ac and 28 reflex save is of any real use? WRONG!



twf kotc no significant ac nor any great reflex comes of it in practice... and then rogue, FvS, Bards etc... none of these can build significant AC or reflex to matter... MY THF barb is just as well off in AC and reflex as my TWF characters with the exception where some with 30 dex may have evasion for spells... 24 dex is a pitance... same with 26 or 28.

Yeah. My pure Kensai has a MUCH lower AC than that. But I wore a DT robe (**** AC, I'd rather have a slightly higher jump with the no armor penalty) and no resistance item.

Seriously, most DPS builds don't get a usable AC. And if you're going for the saves, I'd much prefer to raise my Will save. And I'd even more prefer to raise intelligence, after maxing strength and con.

[Chai]

Don't remove Glancing Blows from two-handed fighting while moving.

1) Characters are ALWAYS moving, or they are dead. Removing Glancing Blows while moving means no glancing blows, ever. This is a far more significant DPS loss than Devs seem to realize!
2) You have to take 3 feats to get Glancing Blows while moving. Removing Glancing Blows while moving basically means that Greater Two-Handed Fighting does nothing, but still costs a feat.
3) Nobody asked for THF to get nerfed. Also, I doubt that encouraging characters to stand still while swinging a 2-handed weapon will have any effect on DPS lag. (In fact, groups with only THFers tend to have 0 DPS lag.)

Does this change improve gameplay?
No.

Does this change make the game more fun?
No.

Does it improve the performance of the game?
Doubtful.

Please rethink this change before Update 5 goes live.

I agree.

I actually support most of the numbers nerfs. You can nerf my numbers, its fine, I'll suck it up. But when my playstyle gets nerfed, thats where I draw the line. I am not peeved about the eSoS. I am not peeved about haste loss or the implementation of double strike and offhand proc.

What I am not agreeing with is the fact that I have to play my THF character differently to be effective. I do not have to play my TWF toon any differently.

I tested this on lammania and it is a huge difference on my barbarian, because I realized how much I always move, due to the fact that mobs always move. I am already sick of playing that character on lammania.

I am still curious to see what they do with THF that makes players like myself want to keep those feats. The only time I really stand still is on boss mobs, and I would just need to twitch in those situations to get better dps. The rest of the time I am chasing down caster / archer AI, or chansing melee mobs that teleport. I also move out of flanks so my healer saves mana because I am not being hit by 5 mobs. In all these situations I am now being penalized DPS wise.

[Emili]

Yeah. My pure Kensai has a MUCH lower AC than that. But I wore a DT robe (**** AC, I'd rather have a slightly higher jump with the no armor penalty) and no resistance item.

Seriously, most DPS builds don't get a usable AC. And if you're going for the saves, I'd much prefer to raise my Will save. And I'd even more prefer to raise intelligence, after maxing strength and con.

Makes little if no difference at all... the build I posted is sitting at 40 24 26 16 16 12 before buffing ... she has CE as one time was a tank I keep it just for Improved trip and 99.9% am running with PA on ... the difference in turning such CE on and turtling compare to a defender is so wide - i.e. a defender running in such mode is 65 AC easily as is an exploiter ... they buff into 70's in raids whereas a kensai is lucky to cross the lines into mid 60's. Top off a defender and they're in the 90's. The payoff for 3 build points in dex are not significant at all to most all strength based DPS oriented character. Dex is ineffective in most DPS builds... for a monk or ranger it makes a difference but any other class - garbage.

I do not agree with the glanceing nerfs however... and my overall feeling be though that all melee combat feels near terrible compared to live server. I am used to blitz ... fast paced game when I can play so... in lesser groups we take our time, in well geared and killed groups we move much swifter ... this change in general feels like the devs are telling me you must all play a single style crawling game. We're taking away ALL other options.

What people also miss here though is TWF is not some super high DPS until it comes to some mob standing still which have a ton of HP... TWF run from mob to mob like the rest of them... We all break chain sequence most the time.

What's really funny here is if they go live with current implementation we have on Lammania ... the new real DPS king is non-other then a fire stance monk. That said maybe will be back to play test more shall they make some bug fixes and changes and deploy them here.

[lolwatboomer]

Don't remove Glancing Blows from two-handed fighting while moving.

1) Characters are ALWAYS moving, or they are dead. Removing Glancing Blows while moving means no glancing blows, ever. This is a far more significant DPS loss than Devs seem to realize!
2) You have to take 3 feats to get Glancing Blows while moving. Removing Glancing Blows while moving basically means that Greater Two-Handed Fighting does nothing, but still costs a feat.
3) Nobody asked for THF to get nerfed. Also, I doubt that encouraging characters to stand still while swinging a 2-handed weapon will have any effect on DPS lag. (In fact, groups with only THFers tend to have 0 DPS lag.)

Does this change improve gameplay?
No.

Does this change make the game more fun?
No.

Does it improve the performance of the game?
Doubtful.

Please rethink this change before Update 5 goes live.

well put.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

A little late to the party here but I agree, glancing blow's should proc while moving.
Barbarians have to move, flank, reflank, dodge etc.

Remove the need for twitching, but dont nerf every THFer.

[lolwatboomer]

They're attempting to nerf THF in terms of it's combat style, not in terms of DPS. Removing glancing blows while moving renders the advantages it has (longer range, ability to move while still putting on decent DPS) moot.

Now instead of playing strategically, we have to stand still every time we attack or we get a huge penalty to DPS. No more days of kiting, juking and utilizing skill to be a better player. This must be more of the "noob-friendly" changes they're applying.

Yes, I admit twitching was nerfed - just indirectly. The entire concept of two-handed fighting has been nerfed.

Oh, and the funny thing is THF is barely a contributor to APS (to be politically correct) lag.

[mediocresurgeon]

Previous post edited. Thanks for pointing out the quote, and providing a link.

[oweieie]

Remove the need for twitching, but dont nerf every THFer.

They can't figure out how, so they're nerfing glancing instead. They'll probably figure it out around about the time when they figure out how to make greensteel wraps.

[TechNoFear]

Oh, and the funny thing is THF is barely a contributor to APS (to be politically correct) lag.

IMO THF would be as big a contributor to lag as TWF, if not more.

Devs have already stated that the physics check is expensive (slow) and reducing the number of physics checks was the reasoning behind coupling main/offhand attacks and double strike.

As two handers are AoE and have longer reach, they would generate a lot more physics checks when determining all the possible targets for a glancing blow.

Devs have also mentioned using cached data (remembering the last positions etc and not performing any calculations in which the input data has not changed). [ie if you have not moved, your target has not moved, then don't do another series of physics checks, use the last swing's targets.]

If glances are generated while moving, then all those physics check would have to be repeated each swing (as the cached data would be out of date).

[donotdirect1]

hmm.. maybe i like this

If you like this mind coming over to my combat thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...29#post3017329) and posting some discussion?

It includes the THF line, edited down to greater two handed fighting as per request, and I've added in some other things.

I kind of feel it's offtopic here now. As he is asking for no change to glancing blows, and I'm asking for them to be removed all together and put cleave and great cleave as the most useful feats to attack multiple enemies.

[Velexia]

This confuses me. Mostly cause I just rolled a favor mule and was messing around talking to npcs is korthos. And he has the opposite views as you. He says something about you only hear moving and attacking is useful from dead men. Can't log in atm to check but if you wanna check for yourself it's the guy walking around by the dock with the title weaponmaster or something similar.

Propaganda!