Do not remove Galncing Blows while moving.

[mediocresurgeon]

Don't remove Glancing Blows from two-handed fighting while moving.

1) Characters are ALWAYS moving, or they are dead. Removing Glancing Blows while moving means no glancing blows, ever. This is a far more significant DPS loss than Devs seem to realize!
2) You have to take 3 feats to get Glancing Blows while moving. Removing Glancing Blows while moving basically means that Greater Two-Handed Fighting does nothing, but still costs a feat.
3) Nobody asked for THF to get nerfed. Also, I doubt that encouraging characters to stand still while swinging a 2-handed weapon will have any effect on DPS lag. (In fact, groups with only THFers tend to have 0 DPS lag.)

Does this change improve gameplay?
No.

Does this change make the game more fun?
No.

Does it improve the performance of the game?
Doubtful.

Please rethink this change before Update 5 goes live.

[oweieie]

Just get rid of glancing blows. The first thing I thought when I started flailing around with a greataxe was "*** is going on, why am I hitting things twice with one swing?" They were a horrible idea in the first place. Just drop them.

Also get rid of twitching, why the heck do you swing faster while moving than when not? Again it makes no sense and is counter to PnP.

Likewise fix haste to only give extra attacks while stationary to be more in line with PnP. Running around flailing with a sword and being as effective as someone who is actually focused on fighting is a 4E stupidism.

[mediocresurgeon]

Just get rid of glancing blows. The first thing I thought when I started flailing around with a greataxe was "*** is going on, why am I hitting things twice with one swing?"

Originally, THF gave no glancing blows. Players found that THF was even less effective than S&B, and the Devs added Glancing Blows to make it a viable combat style.

What I'm getting at is that the removal of glancing blows while moving, on paper, makes it look as though it will stop THF twitch, but will actually just stop THF period (since it penalizes all THF users equally). Penalizing players for moving in combat is a terrible design, especially when fighting equally-mobile opponents. (Have you ever tried to fight a kobold while standing still? How about skeletons? How about casters?)

This is a poor design to the THF twitch "problem" (something the Devs have never officially commented on), since this is the dominant theory for the change.

ELADRIN!
Since you explained why TWF was being changed, could you please explain why THF is also being changed? (Please and thank you!)

[Isolani]

Everybody was so focused on the twf nerf, the thf nerf got a lot less attention. U5 is an across the board dps nerf, and thf gets hit pretty hard.

[LookingForABentoBox]

(A) Just get rid of glancing blows. The first thing I thought when I started flailing around with a greataxe was "*** is going on, why am I hitting things twice with one swing?" They were a horrible idea in the first place. Just drop them.

(B) Also get rid of twitching, why the heck do you swing faster while moving than when not? Again it makes no sense and is counter to PnP.

(C) Likewise fix haste to only give extra attacks while stationary to be more in line with PnP. Running around flailing with a sword and being as effective as someone who is actually focused on fighting is a 4E stupidism.

A) It's easy to image that swinging around a large weapon can do damage even before it's main point of impact. When you're swinging something long around, it hits things on the way to its destination - other monsters around you and protruding body parts.

B) Discrepancies between DDO and PnP don't bother me (yes, I play PnP) but perhaps a solution would be to reduce the time between attacks during the attack animations.

C) One already gets a -4 penalty to accuracy if he attacks while moving.

Besides extra damage and mediocresurgeon's observation about fighting kobolds, I find moving backwards while swinging my sword also reduces the amount of damage if the enemy has a short reach.

[Samadhi]

Don't remove Glancing Blows from two-handed fighting while moving.

1) Characters are ALWAYS moving, or they are dead. Removing Glancing Blows while moving means no glancing blows, ever. This is a far more significant DPS loss than Devs seem to realize!
2) You have to take 3 feats to get Glancing Blows while moving. Removing Glancing Blows while moving basically means that Greater Two-Handed Fighting does nothing, but still costs a feat.
3) Nobody asked for THF to get nerfed. Also, I doubt that encouraging characters to stand still while swinging a 2-handed weapon will have any effect on DPS lag. (In fact, groups with only THFers tend to have 0 DPS lag.)

Does this change improve gameplay?
No.

Does this change make the game more fun?
No.

Does it improve the performance of the game?
Doubtful.

Please rethink this change before Update 5 goes live.

Agreed on all points.

[donotdirect1]

Glancing blows is really an off the wall made up mechanic, however I understand where you are coming from.

To put things more in line with pnp THF should have been made to do more damage through your strength.

As in, spend a feat and receive more than strength and a half on attacks.

Whirlwind attack was supposed to be the attack that hit multiple mobs, but now there is cleave and great cleave that do the same kind of thing. You can use these feats while moving by the way.

My suggestion to change THF would be something like this.

Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 15+): increases the strength bonus on two handed melee weapons to 1.75 and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Improved Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Two-Handed Fighting, base attack bonus of +6 or higher): your critical hits now have a chance to make the target shaken (Fort DC vs critical hit damage) and reduces the cooldown for cleave and great cleave by 1 second.
Greater Two-Handed Fighting (requires Strength 17+, Base attack bonus of +11 or higher and Improved two-handed fighting): your attacks now crack the armor of opponents as if a destruction effect was on your weapon, you also gain +2 to trip and stunning blow and weapon damage while using a two handed weapon.
Superior Two-Handed fighting (requires Strength 19+, Base attack bonus of +16 or higher and greater two handed fighting): mastering the style of destroying things through brute strength you now gain twice your strength bonus while using melee weapons. Your cleave and great cleave abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Idk, sounds ok to me. It could be even more powerful, but just allowing the feats to take the progression of x1.75, x2, x2.25, x2.5 with your strength modifier to damage.

I probably would have went with something like this in a pnp game.

Edit: I just noticed that this kind of splits the major two handed users up. While barbarians would benefit more from the strength but lack of feats leave them a bit short, the fighter could easily become a whiling ball of multiple mob attacks. Interesting.

[elyssaria]

What I'm getting at is that the removal of glancing blows while moving, on paper, makes it look as though it will stop THF twitch, but will actually just stop THF period (since it penalizes all THF users equally). Penalizing players for moving in combat is a terrible design, especially when fighting equally-mobile opponents.

Since they are after the twitching "problem" would you prefer if they took away the extra attacks that twitching is giving today instead of making the glancing blows not working when you are moving? I think that would be their other "solution" to the twitching. However I think that solution is much more difficult for them to apply

/Khierra

[pasterqb]

1) Characters are ALWAYS moving, or they are dead.

This confuses me. Mostly cause I just rolled a favor mule and was messing around talking to npcs is korthos. And he has the opposite views as you. He says something about you only hear moving and attacking is useful from dead men. Can't log in atm to check but if you wanna check for yourself it's the guy walking around by the dock with the title weaponmaster or something similar.

[R0cksteady]

I asked for THF to be nerfed.

If TWF is going to be nerfed this much, THF should be nerfed as well to compensate. It only makes sense to keep THF a bit lower than TWF, at least by 10%.

[Krag]

I asked for THF to be nerfed.

If TWF is going to be nerfed this much, THF should be nerfed as well to compensate. It only makes sense to keep THF a bit lower than TWF, at least by 10%.

I think TWF nerf was supposed to bring TWF in line with new THF. Because right now things seem to be well balanced.

[Mister_Peace]

Each glancing blow requires a physics check.

[R0cksteady]

I think TWF nerf was supposed to bring TWF in line with new THF. Because right now things seem to be well balanced.

They are well balanced. TWF still does more damage, which is a good balance considering the higher sacrifice to other parts of your build you need to take TWF.

[BlackSteel]

They are well balanced. TWF still does more damage, which is a good balance considering the higher sacrifice to other parts of your build you need to take TWF.

TWF was doing more damage before with the exception of the eSOS. Now the fighting style just does even more damage with the exception of the eSOS on trash mobs. Oh wait, trash mobs are stunned/held 99% of the time, TWF does a **** ton more damage on those too even compared to the best weapon in the game.

[R0cksteady]

TWF was doing more damage before with the exception of the eSOS. Now the fighting style just does even more damage with the exception of the eSOS on trash mobs. Oh wait, trash mobs are stunned/held 99% of the time, TWF does a **** ton more damage on those too even compared to the best weapon in the game.

Actually TWF does more damage against all enemies than eSOS now. Which is how it should be.

[BlackSteel]

Actually TWF does more damage against all enemies than eSOS now. Which is how it should be.

wow, just wow, so a pair of greensteel should be more damage than the premier THF weapon? We're not talking just any old weapon here, the sword has a long history with the game, and was the IT weapon back in the day. (acknowledged with the fact that the epic version was released as a +10 item)

[R0cksteady]

wow, just wow, so a pair of greensteel should be more damage than the premier THF weapon? We're not talking just any old weapon here, the sword has a long history with the game, and was the IT weapon back in the day. (acknowledged with the fact that the epic version was released as a +10 item)

Well, until there are epic kopeshes that do more damage than the greensteel sets Lit II or Min II, I don't see why THF should have a weapon that puts THF ahead of TWF

[Tumarek]

Hmmm i don't know.... THFers dont need to move around all the time. Having to stay put to do max DPS is actually closer to the pnp D&D and it will make fights more tactical:

-You will have to decide if it is worth moving.

-Twitching is just stupid... imho... its like a bug in a fps lets allow you to reload your weapon faster by jumping around... just stupid.

So actually i think it could improve gameplay... People will have to work more on tactics


Preformance?... well since no (NOT A SINGLE) player has any idea what really influences performance, i think its a waste of time to even talk about it... until devs give us some server logs

[joneb1999]

Actually TWF does more damage against all enemies than eSOS now. Which is how it should be.

Completely disagree!! As said in the other threads taking an exotic feat is nothing to do with 2wf and the benefits for taking 2wf over 2hf dps were always increased chances of crits and more weapon effects and bonuses!

So the balance has effectively done a stealth nerf to thf to make it barely worthwhile as pure dps was the only advantage. The feats are useless and every warrior type will run around with 2wf when they get the chance for all the benefits! Why do devs not see this when it didnt take long for the community to see it!

Anyone who thinks the new nerf is acceptable and can see the imbalance when every detail is weighed up are in complete ignorance to the damage of the games value on having a variety of styles worthwhile or to other players who want to play a viable different style.

BTW I have 2wf rogue and a 2hf barb and a s+b cleric who uses a dwarven axe which now gets glancing blows. Im up for variety but if I stay around in this environment Iwill have to change my barb to twf!

[BlackSteel]

BTW I have 2wf rogue and a 2hf barb and a s+b cleric who uses a dwarven axe which now gets glancing blows. Im up for variety but if I stay around in this environment Iwill have to change my barb to twf!

as I expect so will alot of players. grind out a +3 or +4 dex tome and buy a heart of wood. Nothing stops you from still using the two handers while acquiring one handed weapons, as you can still twitch and get roughly the same damage.

the damage done on stunned mobs is going to be very drastic between the styles now, atleast the x4 SoS allowed THF to ALMOST do as much as a TWF on a stunned monster. Now its nowhere close.