How are clerics supposed to cope with epic quests?

[totmacher]

I like this thread. it reminds me of why relating your experiences on the ddo forums is useless as long as there's a bunch of people who are more interested in arguing around

[Sweetpea]

Epic Clerics will deal with Epic Quests just fine. The rest shouldn't be there.

Just like Elite Clerics deal with Elite Quests just fine now.

So true

[sirgog]

Exactly: the casting time for Mass Heal is a big cost in two ways. Not only does it create an opportunity for the monsters to kill someone in the seconds you're waiting for it to finish (and a possibility for the player to run from the monster and also get blocked from you), but it also costs whatever other actions the cleric could perform in a few seconds.

If the cleric is a melee build, then Mass Heal should basically be considered as also healing the monsters an amount of damage equal to two or three times your own DPS. But regarding Epic quests, I guess the assumption is that no cleric will have the freedom to help in melee whatsoever.

Mass Heal takes 2.5 seconds to cast (quickened), so yes, it can be considered to heal your melee target for 2.5 times your DPS. That tends to be only a little more than the amount lost casting Heal on one target and Max-Empped Cure Critical Wounds on another, however, and even in groups where they aren't the only cleric, seldom is a battlecleric in the group solely for their melee DPS - in almost every fight in the entire game your party is better off if you sacrifice some DPS to throw urgent heals.

Given the way Epic looks, I think groups with 2 battleclerics, 1 warchanter, 1 arcane and 2 traditional melees will fare significantly better than more traditional groups with 1 offensive caster/healbot cleric, 1 warchanter, 1 arcane and 3 traditional melees - single cleric groups look like they will just run out of healing mana too quickly, offensive cleric spells have never been very strong against foes with (practically) red-name immunities and 5000+ HP, and groups with two healbots will lack the DPS to take down foes in a reasonable time (although they should be stronger than the 1/1/1/3 parties overall). But I'll know for sure once I get this ******* thesis handed in and am free to game again.

[Luthen]

I doubt 5 major mana pots will make a dent on the healing required in epic content, however keep in mind, when doing epic content, you are already capped, so here is how I foresee clerics doing epic content.

Recall or shrine after nearly every battle.

Except, lets say, in Chamber of Raiyum Epic you cannot recall or D Door because a barrier goes up preventing reentry. Any other bright ideas?

[Ironsolid]

If you're using pots in genesis point, its time to re-assess the people you group with and your playstyle pretty drastically.

This ^.^

Maybe even re roll!

[Invalid_50]

I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

Yes let me give my own personal experiences to justify to YOU why this game is objectively balanced.

“While I travel through dungeons, even genesis point (which is named after me by the way since I am the alpha and omega) on my cleric I have so much mana I p00op little mana pots behind me for the short bus clerics to drink; the ones they don’t drink we save and sell to the DDO store so we can keep fully stocked on red vine licorice. You must be doing something wrong if you are not p00oing mana potions too!

I mean like, omg! This game is EZ mode for people like me who know full well that our own personal experiences justify conclusively the fact that the game is fine and that you need to l3rn2play…The End.”

[Shade]

After running these quest alot I say clerics do have a rough time with them. They certainly don't need pots, but they do usually need a good stack or 2 of heal scrolls.

Favored souls on the other hand seem able to handle them fine often with little or no scroll use. That extra bit of mana per shrine makes all the difference.

Ran allot of these (have 15 quest tokens).. Many with just a single favored soul, and except for DQ1 in a bad run, they really never run outa mana. They just use mass heal which is super effecient and there mana lasts thoughougt the quest healing everyone, no pots.

[Kalari]

I think a regular cleric can go into epic quest if they play smart. I went into the chamber of Rayium with two favored souls on my ranger with a barbarian and a wizard. We pulled the gnolls in small waves since they hit hard (hyenas are a real pain) have immunity to death effects and hit very hard. We had one guy take a beating while we beat down the thing hitting him and had one of the favored souls kite the smaller pool of mobs with bb. If your cleric is specced to blade barrier and throw such spells you will be okay.

Healing was not really an big issue since we played smart even the ones taking damage (lol admit I did specially from the golems) could heal ourselves and our wizard was of the school of not being hit so used crowd control a lot which helped. Our only folly was not realizing till it was too late that you cant d-door to the beginning shrines for mana in epic which we purposely saved so wed have them in a pinch and one of the favored souls and wizard got locked out doh.

we wont make that mistake again next time and I think we will be able to do this and im confident both my clerics will be okay in the epic quests.

[cdemeritt]

Sorry for skipping most of this thread... But clerics will learn to deal, just as they always have... When the shroud was new it wasn't uncommon to have 3 clerics and need pots on a regular basis.... Even before the cap went up, it wasn't uncommon for a single cleric to do a shroud without pots......
Then there was VoD, here again when it was new (I remember my first run used a birthdaycake rest shrine, used twice and we still failed) it wasn't uncommon for clerics to need several pots and lots of resources... now it is quite possible to run it without any SP pots....
Then there was...... I think you see the pattern.

Clerics will have it rough for a bit, then it will be not so bad, then easy... It takes time for everyone to figure out the best stratigies to finish with the least resources....

I see no diff with the Epic/new content.

[quintuss]

Yesterday i was finally able to do an epic run (chains of flame) with a pug.
We had two clerics, a sorc, two rangers and a fighter.

After like 5 groups of gnolls we recalled since we figured that doing the quest would take to long for some of the players. (Me and one other player were from Europe and for us it was already 2AM)
I think that after some time and with a static group, it can be done with moderate use of ressources but those quests will still be a massive drain on the clerics plat reserve when trying to pug them.

[Auran82]

After running a couple of epic quests and the raid on my cleric I can say that we will learn how to deal with the quests.

Carrying a couple of stacks of scrolls and a couple of pots for emergencies is what I've been doing and just being smart on how you approach fights and not getting overwhelmed.

At least we have finally found a use for mass heal, lol.

The raid was insane on a cleric, but I have to say, heaps of fun, running like mad and trying to heal someone when suddenly you're knocked over by the queen. Those blade barriers are nasty, lol.

[FluffyCalico]

I have completed 4 of the 5 on epic...the raid got the boss to about 7%.

Most quests everyone shares the resources needed. So I really don't understand why people keep saying how will the "cleric" This is party resources not cleric resouces. Clerics will realise that and there will be no issue. Bring your barb or ranger I don't care, but you are still bringing 1/6th the supplies needed.

[Junts]

Yesterday i was finally able to do an epic run (chains of flame) with a pug.
We had two clerics, a sorc, two rangers and a fighter.

After like 5 groups of gnolls we recalled since we figured that doing the quest would take to long for some of the players. (Me and one other player were from Europe and for us it was already 2AM)
I think that after some time and with a static group, it can be done with moderate use of ressources but those quests will still be a massive drain on the clerics plat reserve when trying to pug them.

These quests are roughly on par with the hardest raid in the game on elite in terms of mob strength; they are clearly in no way intended to be pugged, any moreso than elite tods are regularly pugged at this ponit. Possible, sure, but unlikely in a true pug and not the 'I put up an lfm and took my friends/associates' kind of way.

[Thrombur_Stormforger]

I'm thinking that if you're not using mana pots for elite or epic content, especially high level stuff like Amrath, then what are you using them for? If you're not going to use your mana pots, then why even have them...put them up for auction or give them away...my 2 cents....not to mention...most of my toons are melee builds, so pretty much every mana pot i find goes either to the casters in whatever party i'm in or a guildy or friend who can use them...and i know i'm not the only person who donates to clerics....

[zooble]

nothing to do with the epic quests but with regards to the new mindsunder quests they are all easy on normal but on elite they are much easier with 2 healers. 2 healers we can both blade barrier it up doing more damage and taking less.

take 6 clerics for epic quests? :P

[Visty]

I'm thinking that if you're not using mana pots for elite or epic content, especially high level stuff like Amrath, then what are you using them for? If you're not going to use your mana pots, then why even have them...put them up for auction or give them away...my 2 cents....not to mention...most of my toons are melee builds, so pretty much every mana pot i find goes either to the casters in whatever party i'm in or a guildy or friend who can use them...and i know i'm not the only person who donates to clerics....

i think the fact that you only have melee chars makes you think what you think

manapots are for when it hits the fan, to prevent a whipe etc
you shouldnt drink them just because you run on elite

[zooble]

After running these quest alot I say clerics do have a rough time with them. They certainly don't need pots, but they do usually need a good stack or 2 of heal scrolls.

how is that any different. they are both consumables. 1 is easier to get. the main reason you'd pot is to cast more heals. lets face it... if someone wants a death ward you are not going to pot.

the end result is that they both cost alot of gold for frequent use and 99% of the time no other group member will give their healer gold/scrolls/pots... all this despite the fact that many end game healers use more $ worth of scroll than the sell value of loot they find in any given run.

what does that mean? every1 profits but the healer. too many rich veteran clerics running around giving the impression that 1 cleric groups (2 cleric raids) are still viable endgame. fact is they arn't unless you gear yourself to the point where running that particular quest isn't a challenge anymore. and the only way they pull it off now is through consumables which is unfortune for ALL clerics/fvs as this is now the norm. you can forget the days of when you never even heard of heal scrolls or wands... enter the money sink.

it gets to the point where people stand in aoe, obvious powerful attacks, totally ignore the fact that an enemy blade barrier is up n take damage from it, go toe to toe with a hard hitting melee (eg: mummy wiz king) they simply cannot match etc etc and thinking the healer can cope with it...guess who heals the damage and with what consumable? all to get as many big numbers in as possible. ive seen alot of people not kite through fw/bb despite how much easier it would make the fight for everyone.

you might as well take no cleric and get a umd to do all the healing. asides from buffs the only difference would be they would be the one spending all the gold.

imo the only characters you should take are defensive based melee (eg: monks etc), casters and 2 healers. all self sufficient and specced in crowd control where possible.

[Visty]

how is that any different. they are both consumables. 1 is easier to get. the main reason you'd pot is to cast more heals. lets face it... if someone wants a death ward you are not going to pot.

scrolls are cheaper and easier to come by

why pay 1000gp for a pot when you can buy 10 scrolls for the same money and the same outcome? (price is made up)

[SteeleTrueheart]

People should just get into the mindset. If you are going to run an elite raid or Epic content then pay up to the cleric before you get very far into the quest.

My first epic run today was a PUG. It was brutal. I knew it would be so I took the resources I thought it would need. 6 mana pots for the cleric (who used more than just my 6). 3 spirit cake reward things (just in case - did not use) and a rest shrine from collectables (my one and only - gratefully used towards the end). Unfortunately I did not have any heal scrolls left on that character when I thought I did, otherwise I would have donated 100.

For all those resources, the one and only cleric kept us all alive (or brought us back to life when necessary) and we powered through the quest. I had a 11k plat repair bill and the items I pulled were sold for 9k plat.

But now I have a nice purple EPIC in my favour log. That has to count for something right?

[iraiqat316]

Hey EPIC Wiz King was a One trip through for me, REALLY SOLID group, 15 Mana pots and 3 Eladrin Shrines later, I got an EPIC Completion w/ a Firestorm Greaves token. If you can't find it GRIND IT!