Any Lag Info?

[Vengenance]

Can anyone who has ran Shroud or Part II of TOD comment on the lag? Did the nerf-fest do anything to mitigate lag or is it just business as usual with more nerfs?

[ArkoHighStar]

Much of the work that has all but eliminated lag in most raids will not be live today, the devs indicated that a forthcoming patch will include the most recent changes on lama.

So expect to see lag in the shroud, although what you might see is it take a little bit longer for people to become statues than they used to.

[Tolero]

Much of the work that has all but eliminated lag in most raids will not be live today, the devs indicated that a forthcoming patch will include the most recent changes on lama.

So expect to see lag in the shroud, although what you might see is it take a little bit longer for people to become statues than they used to.

Correct, we have one more round of code changes coming from Phax that should be some of the last nails in the coffin (though we did get in some changes for the network).

[Cyr]

The dps lag fix is not in the update. The nerf to twf pretending to be a means to address the lag is however.

As a point of clarity....

The real fix for dps lag is increasing the BANDWIDTH CAP. This was discovered by players who have long speculated about why EUROPE has NO DPS LAG. Testing on Lama showed that Turbine's fix had very minor effects on DPS LAG while increasing the BANDWIDTH CAP essentially eliminated it. This silver bullet has been commented upon being included soon after update 5 releases.

[Eladiun]

The dps lag fix is not in the update. The nerf to twf pretending to be a means to address the lag is however.

As a point of clarity....

The real fix for dps lag is increasing the BANDWIDTH CAP. This was discovered by players who have long speculated about why EUROPE has NO DPS LAG. Testing on Lama showed that Turbine's fix had very minor effects on DPS LAG while increasing the BANDWIDTH CAP essentially eliminated it. This silver bullet has been commented upon being included soon after update 5 releases.

^^^ What he said

[Tolero]

The nerf to twf pretending to be a means to address the lag is however.

We were pretty up front that the twf update was going to be a nerf regardless of lag or not.

[Eladiun]

BTW, Nice rage edit/unedit Tolero....I saw that.

[Gol]

Can anyone who has ran Shroud or Part II of TOD comment on the lag? Did the nerf-fest do anything to mitigate lag or is it just business as usual with more nerfs?

A little birdy told me "No, this should not have been in the notes yet.", so we definitely don't have all the lag fixes that are currently on Lamannia.

[Josh]

Discovered by players i.e. those that play the game.

That's why the developers couldn't find it.

[Tolero]

BTW, Nice rage edit/unedit Tolero....I saw that.

If I had rage I'd never get anything done around here

[Eladiun]

I EDITED MYSELF FOR TONE

We were pretty up front that the twf update was going to be a nerf regardless of lag or not.

Really....I would disagree.

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats grants a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5.0%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest I and II now grant a +10%/+20% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed. Ranger Tempest III now grants a +5% double strike chance while wielding two weapons.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest I and II now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 100% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing and a 2.5 to 7.5% chance to double strike (depending on whether they are fighting unarmed or with a pair of kamas), while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 80% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks, and a 10% double strike chance.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build                Main-hand    Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)        100%        85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)        100%        75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)        110%        55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)        110%        55%
20 [Other]            100%        55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk        100%        70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed)    110%        60%
14 Pal/6 Rng            110%        65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk            100%        90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.

Edit 2:
Updated information in the main post to reflect the most recent changes.

I think this was sold as a lag fix. You guys/gals were not very upfront about the real reason for this change. Lag is mentioned a lot...nerf not so much. Testing showed minimal effect on lag (I was there we were angry.) so perception is that lag was just a stalking horse for the rebalance of fighting styles. I've done my arguing on this already and it is what it is but honestly; if the effect on lag of this change was going to be barely noticeable you guys picked a poor stalking horse. I would rather you came out and said hey we are rebalancing fighting styles.

[Eladiun]

If I had rage I'd never get anything done around here

[Cyr]

We were pretty up front that the twf update was going to be a nerf regardless of lag or not.

A lag fix is a lag fix. A nerf is a nerf. Mixing the two together to muddle the picture is not being upfront.

[Borror0]

Really....I would disagree.

I think this was sold as a lag fix. You guys were not very upfront about the real reason for this change.

It was clear for anyone paying attention; it's not like they ever claimed that the nerf itself was the lag fix. Unfortunately, not everyone reads that attentively but most frequent forum poster understood that the nerf was not a lag fix; the lag fix was the change to collision detection who could be coded as not-a-nerf if so desired.

Turbine's only fault is to assume we'd read such a long post attentively.

I think this was sold as a lag fix. You guys were not very upfront about the real reason for this change.

Perhaps you're disagreeing with something Tolero didn't say.

From Eladrin's post:
"These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them."

If Tolero meant that they were clear that the change would not solve the lag, she was right.

[grodon9999]

Correct, we have one more round of code changes coming from Phax that should be some of the last nails in the coffin (though we did get in some changes for the network).

What about the 20.5 k Badnwidth cap? That being raised today? On lamaland we were hitting 28k

[Eladiun]

It was clear for anyone paying attention; it's not like they ever claimed that the nerf itself was the lag fix. Unfortunately, not everyone reads that attentively but most frequent forum poster understood that the nerf was not a lag fix; the lag fix was the change to collision detection who could be coded as not-a-nerf if so desired.

Perhaps you're disagreeing with something Tolero didn't say.

From Eladrin's post:
"These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them."

If Tolero meant that they were clear that the change would not solve the lag, she was right.

This....

From Eladrin's post:
"These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them."

...should have read...

From Eladrin's post:
"These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve any of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them."

...and honestly...you read that post and get this..

"It was clear for anyone paying attention; it's not like they ever claimed that the nerf itself was the lag fix.".

Well, I don't. I get look at all these changes to fix DPS lag not look at all these changes to rebalanced fighting styles. That quoted line buried at the end that basically says not all lag can be fixed by this change it address a specific kind of lag, DPS lag, in specific situations. Hey, like I said my opinion is that as a company this was handled poorly. I know the 12 of us on that test raid where less than impressed (angry may be the best word) because expectations where set by Eladrin's post, a significant change to game play should net significant returns, and most of the backpedalling on the DPS lag fix followed the posting of the FRAPS from that test. Feel free to disagree... there are a couple camps on this one and I am in one that says the whole thing was handled poorly.

[Cyr]

Turbine's only fault is to assume we'd read such a long post attentively.

Nonsense.

Turbine's mistake was packaging a nerf as a lag fix.

If Eladrin wanted to be upfront about this he could have posted the actual expected dps lag reduction percentage (based upon some set parameters) versus the reduction in dps to make the case for this clear and compelling. That was never done and it became clear why when we saw the results from Lama. These results showed very minor improvement in DPS LAG when mob reduced hit points on Lama were taken into account (which we had to guess at due to Turbine again not being clear about this).

[grodon9999]

Speaking of things that were never clearly presented - did mob HP reductions make it to live?

[Eladiun]

A lag fix is a lag fix. A nerf is a nerf. Mixing the two together to muddle the picture is not being upfront.

This might be the best way of putting it. Muddled...I like muddled.

I'm no longer arguing for or against the change what's live is live. However, for future reference my vote is simple. A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down but don't mix up the sugar and the salt accidentally.

[Borror0]

Turbine's mistake was packaging a nerf as a lag fix.

I go by Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

It's more likely that they made a mistake than that they were dishonest.

I am in one that says the whole thing was handled poorly.

I'm in another camp that thinks this was handled poorly; the difference is that I think don't they were being dishonest.

They are human and made a mistake.