How are clerics supposed to cope with epic quests?

[quintuss]

Whow, quite a lot of posts in reply of my original post.

At first i think i have to correct myself concerning the quest Genesis Point.
I have run all quests in Amrath xcept the raid so far. Genesis Point was just the first name that came to my mind when i wrote the post.

@Junts: I would like to change the people i run those quests with but since i'm pugging them, i can't.

Ya, i have been in some very bad pugs. One with a squishy Bard leading the charge and dying several times + a few other semi bad players.
People being told don't go through the center of the room, coz there's a tra... doh.. plz raise him and other bad stuff.

I got 402hp / 2178sp on my cleric + ss ring & the korthos neckie. I just activate quicken, when i realize i can't keep people alive otherwise. The only meta i always have active is empower healing. I carry a pot VI mace in my main hand and have all the ap healing enhancements xcept the ones for crits when healing.
I don't think im an exceptionally bad cleric. (solo healed vod pugs (@lvl16) and other stuff without problems)
There may be better clerics (there always are ) but i think after 2 1/2 years+ of clericing (first on devourer and now Khyber) i can say i know what i'm doing.
I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.

[Jonny_D]

I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.

and there you have it. epic is beyond the reach of average. thats where it should be

[Angelus_dead]

There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players.

Of course not, but that isn't all that the "epic" mode does.

It is taking the new path of major character progression and making it insanely expensive and tedious.

So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.

That has no resemblance to my statements. For one thing, solo dungeons would not actually exclude anyone, because all players are capable of doing them. But more importantly, solo dungeons are not the new path of major character progression.

You have repeatedly come to illogical conclusions by conflating two separate design possibilities and treating them as equivalent:
1. Adding some new mode which is tediously hard, just in case some players enjoy that kind of thing.
2. Adding some new mode which is tediously hard, and having it be the only way that some old-favorite quests can be boosted to above level 14 rewards, and also creating a whole new loot reward system for it, including items with different augment slots on them in multiple craftable colors and other options.

As already explained, the problem is not the availability of quest modes that gives the monsters stupidly excessive abilities. What makes it a problem is that there is no choice provided to set these quests to a "normal" level 20 to 24 difficulty, where your characters can actually function in approximately the way they were advertised to do.

[Junts]

Whow, quite a lot of posts in reply of my original post.

At first i think i have to correct myself concerning the quest Genesis Point.
I have run all quests in Amrath xcept the raid so far. Genesis Point was just the first name that came to my mind when i wrote the post.

@Junts: I would like to change the people i run those quests with but since i'm pugging them, i can't.

Ya, i have been in some very bad pugs. One with a squishy Bard leading the charge and dying several times + a few other semi bad players.
People being told don't go through the center of the room, coz there's a tra... doh.. plz raise him and other bad stuff.

I got 402hp / 2178sp on my cleric + ss ring & the korthos neckie. I just activate quicken, when i realize i can't keep people alive otherwise. The only meta i always have active is empower healing. I carry a pot VI mace in my main hand and have all the ap healing enhancements xcept the ones for crits when healing.
I don't think im an exceptionally bad cleric. (solo healed vod pugs (@lvl16) and other stuff without problems)
There may be better clerics (there always are ) but i think after 2 1/2 years+ of clericing (first on devourer and now Khyber) i can say i know what i'm doing.
I still think that in amrath pugs (except in weapons shipment) you just have to use too many pots as a cleric and the epic stuff will simply be out of reach for the average pug.

personally I'm gonna guess that you would be better off by using maximize to heal, as empower healing sized mass heals are inadequate for the damage output of amrath quests with 6 people.

[moops]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

I did it on Hard last night, I was the group cleric with my 1400 SP cleric, I used one pot and 40 scrolls--I prob did not have to use the pot but I wanted to be safe. The Main tank healer did not use a pot (unless he snuck it in--when he got low on SP I still had 1100 SP left and wanted to switch, but he did not want to switch as he knew that I have a high AC and liek to melee on that cleric) he probably used 80- 100 scrolls, as that is what I usuallly use on Hard when I heal the main tank. We used a Stalwart Defender Tank with 600+ HP, around 80ish AC and he pretty much only takes damage from DOTS and Distengrate.

I just use Empower Healing on all my Clerics. I do NOT use the Mass heal spell, and in ToD rarely have to throw any of the other mass heals because of how we do it. I am a huge fan of sleet storm--and use this in most raids I run.

We also had a Bard that used scrolls for healing.

It all comes down to what kind of strategy you are using, and how self sufficient the other people in your group are--Your Buffing? Our Rangers and Palis do the buffing b4 shrining to go into the 3rd part, etc. The people who group with us knwo to back off so that they can be healed with scrolls or top off themselves.

If you do use more supplies as a cleric, it is not your fault, it's usually the group is not working well together, or people are not listening to the leader.

Edited to ADD: I also had the benefit of leading this raid, and the 2 pugs we brought along knew my policy full well of part 3--if your dumb enough to die and not the main tank--you stay dead.

[Sharzade]

LOLZ, been reading this thread.

Methinks that the top most elite and tactical players won't need goodie (rez/mneumonic) bailouts from the DDO store/AH. Shopping for a win just doesn't seem all that hot.

Aye, I'm being wicked. I couldn't stop myself.

Sharz
(DDO Store FTW)

[transtemporal]

OP - I've had varied experiences with random pugs in the new content. These are actually random pugs, i.e. not guild runs, not channel runs, not loose-acquaintances-from-good-guild-runs or names-you-recognise-runs but actual randomly put-together groups of non-guilded toons (or unheard of guilds or bad guilds).

A couple have been an absolute pleasure, most have been a bit of a struggle and a few have been disasters. I think I agree with you - I would be very hesitant to run a healer in epic with a random pug too, lol.

[Enochroot]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

You won't see these same players generally in the sarlona pug scene ...

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

Current pug groups, /agreed.

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I really only wanted to address this - I personally love being in a raid where the "other" cleric always overheals far too early - such that I will heal a bit later than them a few times - until I figure I'm just wasting sp (as I'm certainly not going to start healing earlier and wasting MORE sp ...) - and I just let them do their thing, if that's what they want to be doing.

[Jonny_D]

I really only wanted to address this - I personally love being in a raid where the "other" cleric always overheals far too early - such that I will heal a bit later than them a few times - until I figure I'm just wasting sp (as I'm certainly not going to start healing earlier and wasting MORE sp ...) - and I just let them do their thing, if that's what they want to be doing.

qft

[sirgog]

yup, and thats not necessarily meaning the cleric is a bad player. Alot of the endgame content is primarily directed at cohesive team play. Players with out certain social connections in game are stuck with who ever joins their lfms and are limited by who's lfm's they are able to join, this often leads to subpar groups, or even groups of skilled players who cant easily adapt to others playstyles.
Epic quests are designed to be an extreme challenge to the best teams and players in the game. I think Turbine wants us to use tons of resources running these quests damaging our unbound gear and spending lots of plat repairing, buying scrolls, and even buying shrines and pots from the turbine store. I think of the resources spent in the year trying to beat the Titan before they changed it. It turns out it was beatable (1 confirmed and another claimed victory) even without the changes made. It was fun trying to succeed, pushing the limits and not having the quest beaten on elite 5.5 days after release.

So true on the merits of having *tough* content.

[FluffyCalico]

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

.

3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

[deadkitty]

3 ToD hard completes on my cleric all 3 pugs I joined. Resources used as follows:
1) 1 pot 7 scrolls
2) 1 pot
3) 0 of anything

Edit: Note they were pugs where I saw some good names involved. So pugish in they were not guild specific

A Warforge tank with a sorce repairing him makes it mighty easy on the clerics....

As far as my input on this.... I have both a favored soul and a cleric. Both are HP Built and are spec'd for Light/Good dmg. My Cleric has 1700 SP and my FvS 2800 SP. I have solo healed shroud without pots on both characters. I have done TOD w/o pots, Solo healed VOD even. It's all about your group and strategy. Any good cleric is going to drink pots and use his resources as accordingly as he see's fit. Most of my pot drinking comes from my own expense, running ahead and throwing down blade bariers just to kill mobs. But the number one tip i have is Mass Heal and Heal. Use your heals the smart way. Why throw a cure serious and a cure crit to heal mabe 100 points of damage. Let your party members get low and full heal them with 35 SP. Or toss a mass heal and heal them all for 50 SP. Your party members HP doesn't have to be full after each encounter you run into. Try using scrolls to your advantage. I usually plow through 300 heal scrolls in 2 days roughly, but its cheaper than pots. And considering how many resources I spend... my cleric and FvS seem to always have more plat than my other toons for some reason. Plan out tactics, heal smart, use your resources, and create PUGs capable of preforming to par. Ya sometimes it times longer to fill a group with quality players, but it can save you money. Just my 2 cents

[quintuss]

Why throw a cure serious and a cure crit to heal mabe 100 points of damage. Let your party members get low and full heal them with 35 SP. Or toss a mass heal and heal them all for 50 SP.

Hmm, most of the time when i'm in raids, thats just no option bec of severe lag (shroud).
I just can't rely on the hp bars i see on the screen, so i drop a cure moderate mass regularly just to be sure.
Last shroud i did, all players were at 100% and then BANG! 5 dead in an instant although me and another cleric were spamming mass cures. :/

On a positive note, i did ToD yesterday for the first time. I went in with a pug and i never needed more than 50% of my sp. Maybe i have just played with a lot of bad grps recently, who knows.

[stilldamom]

At first all I did was scout around looking for the Mnem pots. Now, I get wands. Wand of critical/severe heal. You can buy them in House P and they use no mana. Save mana for buffing. These wands are 1250 Pt each, which is pretty steep, but it's cheaper then the Mnem pots. Also, if you are in a decent group, sometimes people from the group will even pitch in a wand or two. In fact, on the raids we went on today, before I even said anything, I was handed 2 full severe heal wands and 4 rez scrolls. I thought that was pretty neat! =D Thanx Shish!

[Natashaelle]

If anything, Epic difficulty may help some DPS-addict types that having lots of AC (and other anti-squishiness measures) is actually worthwhile

*Shields* are *Good* ; *Vicious* is *Bad*

[quintuss]

At first all I did was scout around looking for the Mnem pots. Now, I get wands. Wand of critical/severe heal. You can buy them in House P and they use no mana. Save mana for buffing. These wands are 1250 Pt each, which is pretty steep, but it's cheaper then the Mnem pots. Also, if you are in a decent group, sometimes people from the group will even pitch in a wand or two. In fact, on the raids we went on today, before I even said anything, I was handed 2 full severe heal wands and 4 rez scrolls. I thought that was pretty neat! =D Thanx Shish!

Wands are the way to go in low and mid lvl quests.
In higher level quests or raids they are not doing enough pts of healing and are just to slow.
Heal scrolls are a good way to save sp there but even they can be to slow at times when more than one or two melees are taking damage.

[Pyromaniac]

You get someone else to cleric and play a melee?

[Jonny_D]

Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you

[Elsbet]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

ToD was on normal, which wasn't mentioned. Perspective is important.

One other cleric. He used no pots. He used no scrolls to my knowledge because I never saw one in his hand. No bard. We did DV each other.

The cleric I took through there only has 2000 sp at the moment.

I never turn off empower healing. Always run quicken in raids except when buffing.

I don't spam mass cures when unnecessary. I refuse to mem mass heal because it is a **** spell. (Has Turbine even fixed the only heals six people thing yet?)

I did not extend buffs (with the exception of recitation and prayer) because no part of the quest lasted more than the time it took to get to the next shrine.

Yes, we did have a couple of high hit point tanks and yes, I know when exactly I need to hit them with a heal to keep them up because I know what my various cure spells and heal spell hit for on average.

Exact ACs I don't know, though a couple of the people in the group were AC builds so I would expect that they do have pretty high ACs. It kinda defeats the point of being an AC build if they don't.

[Hendrik]

Im thinking 400 silverflame favor will be a must for melee... If u have to ask epic probably isnt for you

Many things will be a 'must' IMO.

Those pots WILL be of some help as well as the extended P buffs. Think the biggest will be a static group that knows each other very well. Teamplay will be one of the biggest factors in successful Epic runs.

I just hope and pray the challenge that Epic offers is not watered down to the lowest common denominator.