How are clerics supposed to cope with epic quests?

[Visty]

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memnir, you suck....+1 virtual rep for you, cause i have to spread it first

[Angelus_dead]

Epic is there for those that want to run it. No one forces you to run it. Remember that. It is YOUR choice to attempt it.

That is hilariously inadequate as a justification for the epic mode design. Seriously, why did you decide to type that in?

Yeah, you're not forced to play this game... but the developers supposedly have a financial incentive to get people to play it!

[Kaldaka]

That is hilariously inadequate as a justification ...

Ouch +1 rep for you ...

[woundweaver]

I haven't played the new epic stuff yet, but reading about it really makes me wonder how clerics are supposed to support groups in quests like those?

The only capped char i have is a cleric and i don't get to play the amrath quests a lot as it is now since i just can't afford the amount of pots needed.
Good guild groups may be able to play quests like Genesis Point with reasonable amounts of ressources.. pugs are not.
For every pug run of Genesis Point i needed 10+ major sp pots to keep the group alive.
Since i refuse to insert my paycheck into the ddo store every month, i need to run a lot of explorers and lower level quests to be able to run amrath once in a while. That just sucks!

If i read how hard those epic desert quests are, how long fights take and how much damage the mobs are doing, how is a cleric supposed to keep up?!?!?

ummm, roll a fvs with alot of mental toughness, and charisma as high as you can go...

[moops]

I run 3 clerics in Amrath Quests on Elite, including a battle Cleric with 1400 sp--And aside from the beginning when I was testing spells, I rarely use pots--I use 10-50 Scrolls depending on quest and group make up. ToD sometimes I am only cleric and still pretty much just use scrolls and a pot here and there--but we communicate extremely well, and also have others who can use scrolls in group.

I would examine your groups and strategy. . .

I consider Genesis the easiest one of the flagging quests as the spawning of mobs are far easier to control--In Sins and Bastion one wrong step and you can get a ton of porting mobs on top of you--but use of an intimadater, solid fog ( even if on clickies) and Blur and Displacement--as well as moving a bit slower can work wonders--also Comet Fall knocks down some mobs quite nicely--but you need to be prepared to heal yourself for the ones it didn't knock down.

I really hope that they don't dumb down Epic Mode too much, I mean It would be nice if I could use some spells--but I do really want a challenge that we can strategize around.

[Thrudh]

FYI - I did Sins last night in a PUG... two of the people had never done it before...

We had a 20th level spellsinger bard who did an amazing job with Dancing Sphere and Charm Monster...

Smoothest run I've been on so far.... The bard and FvS did have to use a pot each to get us to the first shrine (we didn't want to ddoor back to shrine by the entrance because of the all extra fighting that would entail)

[LexxCoool]

I have done ToD on hard more than once with my cleric. The most I ever needed to use was 1 pot and 7 scolls.

Now tell him how you did that.

[Tuney]

Yeah I've done genesis point on my bard and I don't find it particarly hard... but then again i'm a Virt bard and I'm very crazy in using my Enthralment as much as possable hehe. Plus I love sneaking in all the quests and using enthrallment makes so much more fun when they are all knocked out hehe.

[Thriand]

I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

[paul1devries]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

[woundweaver]

yeah, i dont often run out of mana, but sometimes you just gotta in order to do your role in things. i wont bash anyone for using pots...ive used them for 2 years. but there is a line between need, and wasteful and unnecessary, and i never cross it. i use scrolls timed in with my masses. saves sp's. its easier to get plat for scrolls than to find pots, or charge your credit card for 10 pots just to complete one quest. if i drink a pot, the group better be worth the expenditure, or ill scroll heal when i run out of mana. and you can tell the type of group pretty early into a quest to know whether to waste the resources.

[Junts]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.

I ran it with a VERY VERY good group (now i recognize that was very early in the learning cycle) and still needed to chug a bunch of pots - we had 1 favorerd soul, myself and a bard

How many healers did you have when you didn't need to chug or use scrolls? There is no way that the main tank could not have needed extensive healing during the last fight on hard - did the other healer/healers use any?

I personally love being in a raid where the OTHER cleric is not using any scrolls or pots and sits there twiddling his thumbs with no mana and relies on others to not fail.

I have 2340 spell points on my cleric. Did you not have empower on or maximize or empower healing or didnt extend any buffs etc etc ?

I am very curious to know i guess because i clearly need some healing lessons.

For example, do you rotate through mass heal if needed to reduce spell point usage? Do you have a 90+ ac character tank? Do you have a 600 hitpoint tank and you know exactly how long he can go down before a well timed heal?

These are all things that make a huge difference versus most groups out there that don't have a large guild they always run with.

We've done plenty of tods on hard without pot use, though I concur scrolls are used and should be expected .. only about 40-60 per user, though, nothing out of line with what you'd use for a vod or the like.

[Njhuy]

Well i would love to run with some of these "uber" clerics or uber groups i guess.

Saying you run Tower of Despair on hard without using any scrolls or pots is pretty questionable.
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Actually I ran it in Shade's group on hard a few days ago and I didnt use a single pot and what's more, I had 75% of my mana bar left after part2, and again after part 3.

I used probably 30-40 scrolls, mostly in part 3 keeping Axer up (his full healing amplification and my scroll mastery combine to be like 240 HP heals)

It was incredibly smooth and very easy from my level 20 cleric's point of view.

The difference between a good group and a not so good group is staggering at high levels. A pug may be completely incapable of completing a dungeon that a good group blows through easily.



Genesis has plenty of shrines that you can return to over and over. How on earth is your cleric wasting pots in there? You have unlimited mana because of the shrine count.

I would strongly suggesting finding one of the good guilds to join. It sounds like you still have some learning to do about the game.

[Hendrik]

I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

Ah, BINGO!

Epic is for the 'power-gamer'. Those that have everything and done everything. Epic is the place for those players to still find a challenge.

Epic will be an insane resource intensive Quest. It will take the best players to complete with the best weapons and skills. This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.

I look forward to Epic and the challenge it brings. I look forward to getting my rear handed to me over and over as I play Epic settings.

And as for CLR's coping with Epic, and as CLR, it will hurt. It will hurt a ton. But one good thing that will come out of this, more players will learn to be more self sufficient and less likely to rely on someone else to heal them all the time. Of course, do not ever expect a CLR to join a PUG for Epic. I honestly think Epic will stay within or between Guilds. I know I will NEVER join an Epic PUG.

[Angelus_dead]

Epic will be an insane resource intensive Quest. It will take the best players to complete with the best weapons and skills. This is not for the casual gamer, sorry, as casuals have no place in Epic, at least not a for a long time to come.

That would be foolish.

It would not contribute to DDO being entertaining or popular. To intentionally exclude the vast majority of players from enjoying that content would be a mistake- especially since most of the players who can do it still won't have fun.

But one good thing that will come out of this, more players will learn to be more self sufficient and less likely to rely on someone else to heal them all the time.

That is exactly backwards, and if you read Shade's predictions of how he would play epic quests you'll see the opposite would occur. Melee characters would give up completely at being able to self heal that huge damage in any way, and instead they'd expect clerics to follow them around clicking through a page full of Heal scrolls 10 per minute.

[paul1devries]

Actually I ran it in Shade's group on hard a few days ago and I didnt use a single pot and what's more, I had 75% of my mana bar left after part2, and again after part 3.

I used probably 30-40 scrolls, mostly in part 3 keeping Axer up (his full healing amplification and my scroll mastery combine to be like 240 HP heals)

It was incredibly smooth and very easy from my level 20 cleric's point of view.

The difference between a good group and a not so good group is staggering at high levels. A pug may be completely incapable of completing a dungeon that a good group blows through easily.



Genesis has plenty of shrines that you can return to over and over. How on earth is your cleric wasting pots in there? You have unlimited mana because of the shrine count.

I would strongly suggesting finding one of the good guilds to join. It sounds like you still have some learning to do about the game.

Make sure you refer to the right quote - i never said i needed pots in Genesis - i was commenting on the Tower which you quoted from and the lack of need to use pots OR scrolls.

My comments on Tower were actually with the same group that you referred to running with but a number of weeks back and on first hard completion for them. Maybe it could totally be levels in group at the time and experience running it and enhancements on tank.....

At any rate...i personally use whatever pots or scrolls are needed to get the job done. I would hate to wipe because i was a scrooge....

[Superspeed_Hi5]

Its probably easier to be a CL in an epic quest than an Arcane Caster. From what I understand most of the mobs are immune/resistant to elemental damage with ridculous HP and are immune to PK, FoD, as well as debuffs. Which pretty much makes the Wiz/Sorc buff machines.

Would you like some Haste with your fries?

[Jonny_D]

I think the most simple and blunt answer I can give is that a cleric who has to spend pots consistently on a genesis point run of any difficulty will have to cope with epic quests simply by not doing them or breaking out the credit card. Epic is supposed to be a long need challenge for players, and some players simply aren't up to that challenge.

yup, and thats not necessarily meaning the cleric is a bad player. Alot of the endgame content is primarily directed at cohesive team play. Players with out certain social connections in game are stuck with who ever joins their lfms and are limited by who's lfm's they are able to join, this often leads to subpar groups, or even groups of skilled players who cant easily adapt to others playstyles.
Epic quests are designed to be an extreme challenge to the best teams and players in the game. I think Turbine wants us to use tons of resources running these quests damaging our unbound gear and spending lots of plat repairing, buying scrolls, and even buying shrines and pots from the turbine store. I think of the resources spent in the year trying to beat the Titan before they changed it. It turns out it was beatable (1 confirmed and another claimed victory) even without the changes made. It was fun trying to succeed, pushing the limits and not having the quest beaten on elite 5.5 days after release.

[Hendrik]

That would be foolish.

It would not contribute to DDO being entertaining or popular. To intentionally exclude the vast majority of players from enjoying that content would be a mistake- especially since most of the players who can do it still won't have fun.


That is exactly backwards, and if you read Shade's predictions of how he would play epic quests you'll see the opposite would occur. Melee characters would give up completely at being able to self heal that huge damage in any way, and instead they'd expect clerics to follow them around clicking through a page full of Heal scrolls 10 per minute.

Want to make DDO more 'popular'? Well, more PvP for the kids then.

Ok, sure, make it so a once/twice a week casual can do Epic. That just means the power-gamers will have a much easier time slamming through it. More Epic loot faster! YEA! More of a power-gap, YEA! More Epic and faster. Great idea! While that casual finally get his first Epic loot, PG'ers already have several.

There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players. If anything it is healthy for the game to have difficult challenges to strive to overcome. But not so difficult it cannot be overcome in a timely fashion - as demonstrated by feedback and MadFloyd.

So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.

All playstlyes have a place in DDO. Furthermore, those playstyles need to be reflected in the content we are given. You cannot cater to one end of the spectrum without catering to the other at some point. Thing's will grow stale. Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.

[Jonny_D]

Want to make DDO more 'popular'? Well, more PvP for the kids then.

Ok, sure, make it so a once/twice a week casual can do Epic. That just means the power-gamers will have a much easier time slamming through it. More Epic loot faster! YEA! More of a power-gap, YEA! More Epic and faster. Great idea! While that casual finally get his first Epic loot, PG'ers already have several.

There is nothing wrong with having content designed for the hardcore players. If anything it is healthy for the game to have difficult challenges to strive to overcome. But not so difficult it cannot be overcome in a timely fashion - as demonstrated by feedback and MadFloyd.

So, they should not make any solo dungeons then because it would exclude a vast majority of the players? Gotcha.

All playstlyes have a place in DDO. Furthermore, those playstyles need to be reflected in the content we are given. You cannot cater to one end of the spectrum without catering to the other at some point. Thing's will grow stale. Epic hopes to bring some new life and challenges to the upper-end of DDO players.

very well said. rep'd