The Great Con game.

[Twerpp]

Doesnt he agro randomly in the shroud?
Do you run the shroud with your 250 hp tank?

250 is low for a tank even if he's got evasion. You can wear like 250 hp in items these days no excuse for that.

[bobbryan2]

I think it's already been proven, this statement is wrong.

What's the substitute? DR? don't make me laugh? AC? Well, grazing blows just nixed the importance of AC. Saves? Sure, up until the point you roll a 1.

Sure... you can do it.

And yes... you'll die more doing it with a modicum of hit points.

The fact of the matter is... you take damage in this game.

Period. Damage is taken.

[Bloodhaven]

+1 rep to OP

[Twerpp]

What's the substitute? DR? don't make me laugh? AC? Well, grazing blows just nixed the importance of AC. Saves? Sure, up until the point you roll a 1.

Sure... you can do it.

And yes... you'll die more doing it with a modicum of hit points.

The fact of the matter is... you take damage in this game.

Period. Damage is taken.

Yeah I agree damage is taken.

AC still means you take less.

Skill means you take less.

Good saves.

Evasion.

Self and Party buffs.

DR.

Intimitanks (2 of them can be used for great tactics)

Good clerics.

Enough party DPS to kill things fast. The shorter they live, the less HP they take.

Ultimately if you and your party sucks at all of the above you are gonna fail at those elite raid melees regardless of HP.

These are all good substitutes not everyone needs a signifcant amount of con in their build and can routinely swap out con/hp items for more DPS or other features depending on the situation.

And I dont think rolling a 1 is really a viable point for any argument, since the days of PnP there's always the chance the entire party rolls suck and the DM rolls high causing epic total party wipes. Roll one in the wrong type of save, HP may not even be a factor.

And if lag is so bad you seriously need to consider it when rolling a character at level 1, Turbine really needs to fix something...and we know they do.

Dont get me wrong HP is useful, 190 is a bit too low for even a finesse melee rogue. 250 is way too low for a tank who should be getting base D10 per level. That is not low HP thats straight up gimp HP, pathetic. No excuse for that when +6 con items and GFL are so cheap... everyone gets racial toughness (and most builds should take at least one toughness), and you can get 45 off shroud items.
But you are gimping your toon with 18-20 starting con, multiple toughness feats, and any level raises whatsoever into con.

[Twerpp]

What's the substitute? DR? don't make me laugh? AC? Well, grazing blows just nixed the importance of AC. Saves? Sure, up until the point you roll a 1.

Sure... you can do it.

And yes... you'll die more doing it with a modicum of hit points.

The fact of the matter is... you take damage in this game.

Period. Damage is taken.

And PS, EVIL NEVER DIES! So Turbine needs to get on that and make evil playable!

[bobbryan2]

Dont get me wrong HP is useful, 190 is a bit too low for even a finesse melee rogue. 250 is way too low for a tank who should be getting base D10 per level. That is not low HP thats straight up gimp HP, pathetic. No excuse for that when +6 con items and GFL are so cheap... everyone gets racial toughness (and most builds should take at least one toughness), and you can get 45 off shroud items.
But you are gimping your toon with 18-20 starting con, multiple toughness feats, and any level raises whatsoever into con.

I think I totally agree with you.

I'm just sick of the casters that run around with 150-190 hp... and they claim something stupid like, "well, just don't get hit."

The only way they survive is to never put themselves in harms way, to never pull aggro, and basically to never help the party apart from throwing out a web from time to time.

I want characters in my party that will jump in and save us all from an impending wipe. A sorc who can throw a massive fireball down and take aggro of 8 different things if the melees are getting beaten up.

Sorcs with 150 hp simply can't do those things... They freak out everytime there's a reverse gravity in the Reaver.

[Kriogen]

...
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
..

300 is a nice rounded number. It's not a must, just nice "target".

250 HP tank, 190 Wiz, 170 rogue. At level 10?

If its at level 16, then visit Fred, trainer and AH. If that doesn't help, reroll. Sorry, but even Con 10 wizzy can get mid 200 HPs.

Noone needs to be 700+ HP barbarian, but sub 200 in Vale is a bad idea.

[Samadhi]

True...
Meleeing the Pit Fiend is a major challenge with a low HP char.
I pray for no lag, and do my best to stand on his tail. And watch my own health bar with sweaty palms.

But that is only one quest.

And I'm certainly not suggesting a main tank build skimp on HP.

Just saying that you can get by with less than what most people say you need.
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
(but you could prob hear my scream over voice chat when I was the only one on his tail, and he turned around and faced me! )

Notice a common theme? "Does fine everywhere EXCEPT <insert raid here>" Sorry, I like to build characters that can survive in ALL content; not just some. And if you have been reading MOD 9 stuff at all, there are plenty more cleaving orthons and other direct damage spells with no save. I play a cleric a decent bit, and if your tank has under 400 HP with no evasion, you will be allowed to die without a second thought.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Doesnt he agro randomly in the shroud?
Do you run the shroud with your 250 hp tank?

I don’t run the Shroud often.
I’ve got one tier 3, and 4 Tier 2 items on my capped chars.

I think his agro is partly random, but can be influenced for short times. Not sure.
I’ve seen some shroud runs where he faces usually in one direction for very long periods of time, but I’ve seen others where he will not stop spinning around. I assumed it was because DPS was not concentrated on one spot, or that too many people were trying to get behind him.

He seems to act like Mummies and Flesh Golems. They will turn toward you when you hit them, but will change their mind very fast.

I’m not actually experienced enough to know for sure.
He can definitely be Diploed though.

[Delt]

I don’t run the Shroud often.
I’ve got one tier 3, and 4 Tier 2 items on my capped chars.

I think his agro is partly random, but can be influenced for short times. Not sure.
I’ve seen some shroud runs where he faces usually in one direction for very long periods of time, but I’ve seen others where he will not stop spinning around. I assumed it was because DPS was not concentrated on one spot, or that too many people were trying to get behind him.

He seems to act like Mummies and Flesh Golems. They will turn toward you when you hit them, but will change their mind very fast.

I’m not actually experienced enough to know for sure.
He can definitely be Diploed though.

You aren't very experienced (or keen apparently) at running end game content. I'd suggest you giving advice on acceptable HP levels at end game is thus....silly.

My oldest character was created when Drow first released. 16 sorc, 12 base con. 300+ HP. Takes a fair amount of loot/etc, but if it's doable. Very few characters are unable to break 300 with some work...for those that can't, yes sadly, it's probably an eventual reroll if you want to be an asset in end game content.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think I totally agree with you.

I'm just sick of the casters that run around with 150-190 hp... and they claim something stupid like, "well, just don't get hit."

The only way they survive is to never put themselves in harms way, to never pull aggro, and basically to never help the party apart from throwing out a web from time to time.

I want characters in my party that will jump in and save us all from an impending wipe. A sorc who can throw a massive fireball down and take aggro of 8 different things if the melees are getting beaten up.

Sorcs with 150 hp simply can't do those things... They freak out everytime there's a reverse gravity in the Reaver.

Specificaly about casters.
I have a Wiz16 with 190HP.
And A sorc 16 with maybe 170ish

My Sorc is a little squichy, but is CC (enchantment) specced. In all but the highest dungeons (and even then) my Sorc can disable most monsters before taking too much damage. Disable! not Fireball! Big difference.
And which helps the party more? making the bad guy unable to hurt you, or doing damage to him....just like the melee guys are.
I've usually got a two or three melee guys with me just dying to increase their kill count. So I let them. And I doubt anyone would say that I wasn't helping.

But I will admit that the way most raids are run, and the way monsters saves and SR is heading out the room, my Srcs days might be numbered.....but not yet.

My Wiz. only 190 Hp but I do not consider her squishy at all.
She is usually quite decked out in buffs, that last for a very long time.
I do run the reaver with her often. And I've laid down tons of CC and max/empowered firewalls........and very rarely die.
Even when the whole paty wipes, I'm usually one of the last people standing.
Granted, I do use a whole bunch of CSW pots! And maybe that is the big difference. (seems most people think it's someone else's job to keep them alive)
Also being displaced most of the time in there helps too.

She throws webs, cloudkills, makes things dance, and swings a vorpal in the Hound. And only dies when the beholders come out and debuff her.

Wizards with low HP do not need to be squishy.

But in general, I really avoid nuking. Nuking draws agro. Lots of it.
Nukers need as much HP as they can get IMO.

[krud]

Twelve con minimum is what I shoot for. I will typically put 6 build points into con (4-6pts for the 10base con races). That is usually a good enough for almost all purposes. Those first 6 points are 1 for 1 stat increase. Any higher than that and I need to spend 2 or more build points for every point of con. I can usually do better putting those points elsewhere. At best it gives me 20 more HP at end game, without gimping other stats. meh, not worth it for most builds imo.

[bobbryan2]

I don’t run the Shroud often.
I’ve got one tier 3, and 4 Tier 2 items on my capped chars.

I think his agro is partly random, but can be influenced for short times. Not sure.
I’ve seen some shroud runs where he faces usually in one direction for very long periods of time, but I’ve seen others where he will not stop spinning around. I assumed it was because DPS was not concentrated on one spot, or that too many people were trying to get behind him.

He seems to act like Mummies and Flesh Golems. They will turn toward you when you hit them, but will change their mind very fast.

I’m not actually experienced enough to know for sure.
He can definitely be Diploed though.

Well, there you go!

I'm sure if you posted builds and added the caveats: I don't intend on running the shroud or other high level content; I don't plan on being asked to solo a difficult enemy while the party does something else (white tor dragon); and I don't plan on being in melee much.

I'm sure if you did that, you wouldn't get a lot of people saying you need more con. At its core, yours is a very circular argument. You're saying you don't need con on characters if you don't run missions where you need con.

P.S. Your observations aren't 100%. I know you can intimidate Harry, and he gets the icon over his head, but it doesn't have any actual effect. he randomly aggros from target to target, and no amount of DPS or player skill is going to keep him from doing so.

And trust me.. if your "player skill" involves running or tumbling out of melee everytime your hit points get close to out... that's not playing conservatively... that's doing what you have to do to make a sucky character not be totally useless. But all that time you're running out of melee... you're not DPSing.

[Kalanth]

there is no substitute for hp at end game raid boss situations, especially if you plan to melee with the likes of aristakos.

I dunno, my Paladin 10 / Ranger 6 has a Base 10 Con (but wears a +6 item and recently snagged a +3 Con tome and has 1 toughness feat). He just barely is under 300hp with 299... Yeah, I know. However, I get in there and slug away on Harry each and every time I run the shroud and have only died in part 4 with him twice, and a few more times in part 5. The lack of hit points and Con has only every bothered me when I try to solo with the character, but if I run around in a party I barely notice those missing numbers.

[bobbryan2]

My Sorc is a little squichy, but is CC (enchantment) specced. In all but the highest dungeons (and even then) my Sorc can disable most monsters before taking too much damage. Disable! not Fireball! Big difference.
And which helps the party more? making the bad guy unable to hurt you, or doing damage to him....just like the melee guys are.

Honestly? It greatly depends. If the melees are going down faster than the cleric can keep them up... sometimes grabbing the aggro is the best way to take the heat off and let the cleric keep up.

I hate all these groupings of CC-specced or Necro-specced or Nuking-specced. A good caster does it all when it's needed. A good caster can grab the Reaver's aggro, drag him out of the firewalls, and batten down the hatches until the melee can reestabilish. They cast the spells that are relevant to the situation.

If your caster specced only in CC... how do you solo anything? How can you even kill final bosses? And if you don't solo... then wouldn't you admit that the caster could be... better?

But in general, I really avoid nuking. Nuking draws agro. Lots of it.
Nukers need as much HP as they can get IMO.

Aggro is good for casters. Aggro is the reason my caster uses intimidate... not diplomacy. Aggro allows a caster to truly command the battlefield... putting enemies where he or she needs to to maximize damage.

You've got it completely backwards. Casters should love aggro... melees should hate it. Leaving aggro on melees leads to a lot more damage being taken.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The difference between a 10 con and an 18 con at creation is 64Hp at lvl 16.

Thats about two more big hits that the high Con char can take bewfre dying then the low Con char. (toughness is another issue)

Toughness. My original post made no mention of this, but it is related.
The question comes down to how many feats are you willing to devote to HP?

I usually choose not to. (but the Minos Helm is very nice)
Ftrs certainly have room for it though.

Anyway, if all you want your char to do is swing melee weps and take damage, then Yes, you need all the HP you can get.
I'm not trying to talk those people out of anything.

But there are alternatives to building chars and surviving. And I'm also convinved that most of the exceptions I have mentioned are caused by the current tactics in use by the majority of players...not by the actual dungeon.

However, since every player who ever posts on the forums has convinced tha Devs that all of our chars have 300+ HP, I guess they will continut to try to make dungeons to challenge what they perceive as the player norm....sad.

But I have completed Every quest under lvl 17 (not counting the Abbot) with chars that most of you would consider too squishy to do so. And my chars have done just fine. (also completed Shroud and Monestary on Elite)(and just to clear things up, I've completed every quest except Abbot on Norm...all except, Hound, VoD, Prey, Kobold, & SoS on Elite)(and I've made several attempts at Abbot, so I'd say I'm at least familiar with that one too....and HP was not the problem there)
No, I didn't solo them. Sometimes I hated the tactics the group used, because those tactics made everyone take unnecessary damage. But most of the time, it wasn't a problem.

Again, I never said a melee focused char should not invest in Con.
How many HP you need is dictated by how much damage you intend to take.

But I do think building a char from day one, just to run the same end quest over and over again, is .....well.....not for me. And I run that quest just fine too.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Honestly? It greatly depends. If the melees are going down faster than the cleric can keep them up... sometimes grabbing the aggro is the best way to take the heat off and let the cleric keep up.

I hate all these groupings of CC-specced or Necro-specced or Nuking-specced. A good caster does it all when it's needed. A good caster can grab the Reaver's aggro, drag him out of the firewalls, and batten down the hatches until the melee can reestabilish. They cast the spells that are relevant to the situation.

If your caster specced only in CC... how do you solo anything? How can you even kill final bosses? And if you don't solo... then wouldn't you admit that the caster could be... better?



Aggro is good for casters. Aggro is the reason my caster uses intimidate... not diplomacy. Aggro allows a caster to truly command the battlefield... putting enemies where he or she needs to to maximize damage.

You've got it completely backwards. Casters should love aggro... melees should hate it. Leaving aggro on melees leads to a lot more damage being taken.

Big difference in playstyles here.
My CC specced Sorc is weak against rednames...but does have a few damage spells of course. Not really suggesting anyone make a Sorc exactly like mine.

My Wiz can adapt quiet well though. I wouldn't call her a Nuker either, but Max/Empower, and +50% damage items get her far when needed.

Solo? No....I seldom solo.
2 Man lvl 16 and below quests with no problem. (other than running out of SP, and maybe CSW pots)
My chars could always be better. But gear matters more than build.

Anyway, I can't win this debate. popular playstyle and tactics has convinced many people that more HP is necessary. And it's hard to convince anyone otherwise if I have to play by their rules/tactics.

[Delt]

The lack of hit points and Con has only every bothered me when I try to solo with the character, but if I run around in a party I barely notice those missing numbers.

Heh, you might not notice, but I assure you that your clerics do. They can spot 300 and sub characters pretty **** easy, even those with evasion (which you don't have). Most inexperienced healers will waste their SP reacting to toons like that, resulting in severe overhealing. Me? I'd just let them die or jump out and self heal.

I hope, at the very least, you are packing FS greaves and some prot pots. Save your clerics the headache.

[bobbryan2]

Anyway, I can't win this debate. popular playstyle and tactics has convinced many people that more HP is necessary. And it's hard to convince anyone otherwise if I have to play by their rules/tactics.

Ok... then change the nature of the debate. I don't think I've given up anything meaningful on my sorc to get 350ish HP. I can still do the CC thing.

What are you gaining by not having more HP? Whether by item slots or stat points. Is whatever you're using those points and slots on making you a better CC caster?

If you say you can live with lower HP, awesome. But that's still a loss. What're you gaining on your low HP characters that make them more survivable or effective?

[Kalanth]

Heh, you might not notice, but I assure you that your clerics do. They can spot 300 and sub characters pretty **** easy, even those with evasion (which you don't have). Most inexperienced healers will waste their SP reacting to toons like that, resulting in severe overhealing. Me? I'd just let them die or jump out and self heal.

I hope, at the very least, you are packing FS greaves and some prot pots. Save your clerics the headache.

Nope, no greaves, I do have Mark of the Sentinal II on the character (Prot) though, and lay on hands (which I am happy to use on myself) and a hot bar of wands (which I use on myself and others during and after fights). Mostly I use tactics, like standing behind Harry in part 5 which means I take less melee hits, and pulling out before the blades and using Many Shot with a Holy of Pure Good bow instead of staying to long and getting chewed up. The reason I don't notice the low HP is because I generally am not the one holding the agro in the quests and raids and tend not to need much healing. Stick in tight and the cleric drops a Mass Cure and that will usually do it. No more SP being used than normal considering that they usually are already using that spell. Low attributes can be overcome with tactics.