The Great Con game.

[bobbryan2]

Nope, no greaves, I do have Mark of the Sentinal II on the character (Prot) though, and lay on hands (which I am happy to use on myself) and a hot bar of wands (which I use on myself and others during and after fights). Mostly I use tactics, like standing behind Harry in part 5 which means I take less melee hits, and pulling out before the blades and using Many Shot with a Holy of Pure Good bow instead of staying to long and getting chewed up. The reason I don't notice the low HP is because I generally am not the one holding the agro in the quests and raids and tend not to need much healing. Stick in tight and the cleric drops a Mass Cure and that will usually do it. No more SP being used than normal considering that they usually are already using that spell. Low attributes can be overcome with tactics.

To a degree. Take part 4 and 5 of the Shroud. Healing is usually determined by the lowest HP total. So if you have 100 hp less than all the other melees, then you, all by your lonesome, are causing the cleric to use sp at a higher rate.

Now.. usually there's someone under 300 hp, so it's probably not the case.

Standing behind Harry is a valid strategy in part 5 as well. My pure rogue employs it as well (about 375 hp). But.. one thing to keep in mind is that you need 3-4 static people to 'hold' him in. Those guys can't simply shift because they happen to have aggro, or Harry could run off. So while it may be a totally valid strategy to stay behind Harry... it's only made valid by those 450-550 hp guys that are taking the brunt for ya.

[krud]

The difference between a 10 con and an 18 con at creation is 64Hp at lvl 16.
.
.
.

Again, I never said a melee focused char should not invest in Con.
How many HP you need is dictated by how much damage you intend to take.

But I do think building a char from day one, just to run the same end quest over and over again, is .....well.....not for me. And I run that quest just fine too.

I agree for the most part with your premise. However, nobody is going to make a build where it's a choice between a 10 or 18 con. Typically within the same race and build it is only an option of a point or two of con here or there. For most every build it shouldn't be too difficult to find at least 4 build points to put into con. You'll hardly gimp yourself, and unless you are an elf/drow, you'll start with at least a 12con.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I can't play the game the same way the Con-men do, using the same tactics, and get different results.

Those people who say they need more HP, really do need more HP.
Just like those groups that put up an LFM saying they need a healer...they really do need a healer.

Those statements aren't even intended as critisism....they are just true statements.

As long as you use tactics that get you hurt, you will need as much HP as you can get.

And there is no way I ever foresee a day when I can play a raid by my prefered tactics. Too many people have already made up their minds.

To tell you I can be anyone's equal standing nose to nose with the pit fiend with les HP, was never my intent.
To tell you I can be your equal when dragging the whole dungeon into your firewall with less HP was never my intent.
(I also doubt the devs designed Tor with the idea of one caster soloing the white dragon...although there is(used to be?) a way to do it and not take damage either).

I also can offer no great insight into how to run some raids without (someone) taking lots of damage. Hound def works best with an intimitank for instance.
Visions is debatable.....the red named Orthons need a good intimitank IMO, Sulu does not. (My main has had sulus agro several times and HP has not been a problem)( to clearify, I think there are other tactics that can be used on Sulu)
SoS also does not need huge HP chars. Shroud is debatable. (a group of 12 evasive ranged builds can kick his butt and use no resources for instance)

Current popular tactics in most quests is the same.
Buff, charge, swing(nuke), heal, repeat.
That tactic requires HP and healers(babysitters).
Anyone using that tactic needs as many HP as they can get. No doubt in my mind about it.
I get by by being the guy whacking on the big guy's backside. That doesn't work when the whole party wants to be that guy. But lucky for me, everyone else has >300 HP and doesn't seem to mind getting beat on!

Maybe that's my secret, the rest of you are so willing to take all my damage for me that I never have to worry about it.
You've got the HP, you can take it.
You've got your guildy playing cleric, you can take the damage and know he's got your back.
You can't do Stealthy Repo with the new dungeon alert system on your capped char, but who cares?!
You can't self buff.
You can't range.
Everything saves against your spells.
Flame strikes and bladebarriers kill you routinelly.

But you already know what you need to solve any prob.
More DPS, more HP.

[bobbryan2]

Maybe that's my secret, the rest of you are so willing to take all my damage for me that I never have to worry about it.
You've got the HP, you can take it.
You've got your guildy playing cleric, you can take the damage and know he's got your back.
You can't do Stealthy Repo with the new dungeon alert system on your capped char, but who cares?!
You can't self buff.
You can't range.
Everything saves against your spells.
Flame strikes and bladebarriers kill you routinelly.

But you already know what you need to solve any prob.
More DPS, more HP.

I don't see that as very acurate. My fully buffed 30-34 con rogue sneaks just fine as an assassin with more than 30 strength.

My caster has a 37 charisma with heighten and spell focus feats all with a lot of hp. (still missing that stupid litany)

All my characters self buff.

Some even range... I have multiple characters with manyshot (some aren't even rangers!)

And I definately try to keep evasion on my characters. Hell, my cleric has evasion and usually runs around with a 35 reflex and 60-70 ac. And yes... even that cleric has 340 hp or so. (usually with self casted displacement and stoneskins up)

I don't think you're accurately representing characters built. DPS and HP don't necessitate lacking in every other category.

----------------------------

I guess what it comes down to is this: I want to be able to handle something in a quest when someone needs it done. If they say... hey, can your rogue go solo the gnoll in part II of the shroud. I can say... sure, no problem. We need someone to go pull that lever: "No prob, I got it." Hey, do you mind tanking the Reaver... or Sally... or whatever... sure, no biggie.

Low HP really limits what you can be called upon to do. You may say that it's only because of the party leader's tactics... and I'd say.. yeah, ok...

So is your end point.. you don't need HP...unless you PUG or solo or run with anyone who doesn't cater to your low hp character?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Ok... then change the nature of the debate. I don't think I've given up anything meaningful on my sorc to get 350ish HP. I can still do the CC thing.

What are you gaining by not having more HP? Whether by item slots or stat points. Is whatever you're using those points and slots on making you a better CC caster?

If you say you can live with lower HP, awesome. But that's still a loss. What're you gaining on your low HP characters that make them more survivable or effective?

In some cases my lower HP chars are just underequiped. Haven't pulled GFL and or +6 Con items yet.
Other chars are older and I use to make most with only 10con.

But, I do prefer items that help me not take damage.
Proof against poison items. Resistance. Fire resist...
Heavy Fort is more important then HP IMO.

My Sorc has max char, and no stat lower than 10 (I hate neg modifyers).
I think I put extra points into Dex, an old 28pt build that in her case the dex might not be enough to matter. I took every enchantment feat and spell pen feat I could. And all the enhancments to lower heighten costs.

My wiz though was my first drow.
She had an 18 Int and dex at creation (I think) and 10s everywhere else.
She's stealthy, and has the wep finesse feat.
Has a good ref save and a nice selection of rapiers.
Not a melee build, but I enjoy saving SP (or more correctly doing something other than standing around when out of SP) by attacking from behind with a melee wep when I can.
She's a fun char to play IMO. Very versatile and does a lot more than jump around in firewalls, and recall for mana.
She has high SR enhancments and Drow dex line.
Very obvious that she takes less damage than most others from AOE spells.
Can sneak anywhere in the Vale and dance with orange named devils at her leisure.
Or banish from a distance and never draw agro at all.

I like my Wiz a lot. And in her case, I really only feel squishy against elite traps.
But even then, most can be avoided/buffed up for...etc.

I suppose my biggest gripe against the "you need more con" statements is about Elves.
People will try to tell you that any elf is automatically gimped because of the lower con score. (or drow).

And even though I do like WF, most people choose WF for casters for the higher con and belief that they can take more punishment.

Personally, I think WF make poor sorcs. (but good Wizs)
Giving up cha for con for a caster seems dumb to me.
WF immunities are nice, self healing is nice (but the self healers seem to assume people cannot buy potions)(don't get me wrong, I like self healers)
But Sorcs already have few spells to shoose from, and now you want to devote some to repair spells?! Seems too many stikes against them.
But I wil admit that there are many uber WF sorcs out there.

Drow IMO make the best arcanes. I can stop an army, but only if they fail their saving throws. Mod 9 might prove me wrong here, but till it does, I stand by this.
I may not be able to land many hypnos in the subterrain, but I can still make them dance. Just takes a lot of spell pen to do it.

[bobbryan2]

Drow IMO make the best arcanes. I can stop an army, but only if they fail their saving throws. Mod 9 might prove me wrong here, but till it does, I stand by this.
I may not be able to land many hypnos in the subterrain, but I can still make them dance. Just takes a lot of spell pen to do it.

DCs are definately important for arcanes. I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that. But my caster... at 37 (+2 tome) can land anything I need to.

Drow don't make terrible casters, but I'd definately put them below humans at the moment. Humans are 1 cha behind, but 3 con in front of normal elves and up to 5 in front of drow.

And depending on where the extra cha point lands... there may be no difference in DCs at all.

But yeah... my experiences from mod 9 are that CC spells that require saves are almost useless... as are damage spells that require saves. And of the three... I can land things that hit reflex more than fort or will.

But all of that is really irrelevant. The point is... you don't have to give up any CC ability to have HP as a caster. My sorc will probably hover around 400 hp and 40 charisma in mod 9. What will I give up? 1-2 skill points/level (already have concentration and UMD), +1-2 reflex saves (meh), little load carrying (run around with 17 str now... after starting with an 8)

The question isn't DC vs HP.

The question is 1-2 reflex saves + 1-2 skill points vs HP.

That's the real way the argument should be framed.

[Lewcipher]

Nice post, even if it is a little con-voluted.

[Mr_Ed7]

Without putting any numbers, it's nothing but feel-good rhetoric.

Yeah, some of us like feeling good.

[Mr_Ed7]

Kkkkkkkkkkhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhn nnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!

[epochofcrepuscule]

there is no substitute for hp at end game raid boss situations, especially if you plan to melee with the likes of aristakos.

umm.... wow.... you must not know the game very well.... that was quite the ignorant thing to say.

two things a character must have, high HP or high ac and evasion. (casters are obviously a little different)

Yeah.... my ac characters are hardly ever hit by suulo or arry.... well there goes your idea!

Do some research before you make stupid posts btw.... I do believe as someone mentioned earlier in this post... this discussion has a forum.... and ac/evasion tanks are great for endgame raids.

[bobbryan2]

umm.... wow.... you must not know the game very well.... that was quite the ignorant thing to say.

two things a character must have, high HP or high ac and evasion. (casters are obviously a little different)

Yeah.... my ac characters are hardly ever hit by suulo or arry.... well there goes your idea!

Do some research before you make stupid posts btw.... I do believe as someone mentioned earlier in this post... this discussion has a forum.... and ac/evasion tanks are great for endgame raids.

high AC characters are great actually. But only if surrounded by other high AC characters.

Mass healing is always based off the lowest common denominator in those situtations... unless they're spot healing with scrolls. (like in a slow damage VoD).

[Junts]

Second greatest is the Shroud leader saying "stay in" when the blades are closing.
Absolutely hate the popular "run by all these guys" tactic.
Hate being the only caster and someone expecting me to nuke something (Tor Dragons)

so basically, you pretty much hate the entire ddo endgame as it exists right now?

[Krago]

In some cases my lower HP chars are just underequiped. Haven't pulled GFL and or +6 Con items yet.
Other chars are older and I use to make most with only 10con.

. . .

I suppose my biggest gripe against the "you need more con" statements is about Elves.
People will try to tell you that any elf is automatically gimped because of the lower con score. (or drow).

And even though I do like WF, most people choose WF for casters for the higher con and belief that they can take more punishment.

Personally, I think WF make poor sorcs. (but good Wizs)
Giving up cha for con for a caster seems dumb to me.
WF immunities are nice, self healing is nice (but the self healers seem to assume people cannot buy potions)(don't get me wrong, I like self healers)
But Sorcs already have few spells to shoose from, and now you want to devote some to repair spells?! Seems too many stikes against them.
But I wil admit that there are many uber WF sorcs out there.

Drow IMO make the best arcanes. I can stop an army, but only if they fail their saving throws. Mod 9 might prove me wrong here, but till it does, I stand by this.
I may not be able to land many hypnos in the subterrain, but I can still make them dance. Just takes a lot of spell pen to do it.

WF give up 2, maybe 4 charisma against a drow which is 1 maybe 2 DC. Its the same argument you are trying to make for Con. Starting with 10 Con vs 18.

WF will have 80-100 more HP compared to a Drow. Significant, maybe. It all depends on your play style.
As I have read, you like to take it slow and conserve resources. I am all for that and would prefer to play that way, mostly because I'm just not that good at twitch skills.

I would still like it to have my "squishies" have 300+ hp because the mobs are going to hit a lot harder once the cap goes to 20.

[baddax]

The only way i can see it acceptable for lower hp characters at end game raiding would be to have a seperate spot healer for the lower hp characters, either a bard or second cleric who targets selected individuals with either heal scrolls or spells. Not suggesting this as a superior method just a Possible alternate method for more squishy types.

As someone stated earlier, the problem is the increased spell point consumption caused by lower hp melee types. It forces the "main" healer to spam mass heals at a faster rate to keep the squishy types alive. This is less efficient than if everyone has a higher base Hp.

The alternative would be to have the Primary healer to spam mass heals on the entier group and the secondary healer spot heal (the more squishy party members) with scrolls or Cure Critical or whatever. Not sure this would be any more effecient on total resources used.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't see that as very acurate. My fully buffed 30-34 con rogue sneaks just fine as an assassin with more than 30 strength.

My caster has a 37 charisma with heighten and spell focus feats all with a lot of hp. (still missing that stupid litany)

All my characters self buff.

Some even range... I have multiple characters with manyshot (some aren't even rangers!)

And I definately try to keep evasion on my characters. Hell, my cleric has evasion and usually runs around with a 35 reflex and 60-70 ac. And yes... even that cleric has 340 hp or so. (usually with self casted displacement and stoneskins up)

I don't think you're accurately representing characters built. DPS and HP don't necessitate lacking in every other category.

----------------------------

I guess what it comes down to is this: I want to be able to handle something in a quest when someone needs it done. If they say... hey, can your rogue go solo the gnoll in part II of the shroud. I can say... sure, no problem. We need someone to go pull that lever: "No prob, I got it." Hey, do you mind tanking the Reaver... or Sally... or whatever... sure, no biggie.

Low HP really limits what you can be called upon to do. You may say that it's only because of the party leader's tactics... and I'd say.. yeah, ok...

So is your end point.. you don't need HP...unless you PUG or solo or run with anyone who doesn't cater to your low hp character?

But how do you create a char that does everything well?
If I could, I would.
It's certainly my goal to create as good char as I can.
But I create my chars for me to have fun with, not for other people to have fun with. (although I do hope the whole party has fun together)

For instance a Pal.
Pals get a lot from cha.
They also need Wis for spell points and to cast their spells
They need Str to do damage
They need Dex to have a decent AC
They need Int to have certain feats (like combat expertise)
And of course they need con because they are melee based and will be getting hit a lot.
How on earth do you make a Pal that can do it all?

Or something simpler...rogues.
I wand to sneak, I want to do trap, I want to survive traps!!!
I want to UMD, and diplo....and of course do damage.
I want to assassinate.
I chose a Drow 10/16/10/16/10/16(mising some points somewhere I think)
took all the damage enhancments I could, faster sneaking line....and even though she is underequiped she seldom gets agro, gets rid of it fast when she does, and does fabulous SA damage. Plus is decent on traps and ref save.
I've been very happy with her, and honestly can't figure out how I could have made her better.
More con? I'd rather have more Wisdom actually. (although a better fort save would be nice...darn stone scorpians in rainbow)
Tired of getting greater commanded when they didn't even see me, and Wis would help my spot skill.
Even with the 16 char (and a +6 cha item standard equip) I still feel like my UMD is too low.
Honestly, those people who claim auto success on heal scrolls are lying IMO.
16 (and +6) Int as I still fail trying to assassinate subterrain beholders.
High 20s dex(can't remember exactly) and I still fail trap saves.

Higher con is not what my rogue needs IMO.
I would like a better con item, and a better false life item.
Still need a minos helm...etc.

Rgrs need dex, str, con, and wis....and I don't want below 10 in other stats.
Plus I like elves and drow.
So guess what?.....my Rgrs will have a 12 con at creation, and I won't be taking a toughness feat. I want that displacement dragon mark, I want tempest III (4 feats I think) I want improved crit pierce, ranged and if I can get it slash too.
Don't see room in there for toughness......nope.
And those lvl up points will all be in dex.

Anyway, more HP is great. But there's so many other things I want to do with my builds.

[Meriadeuc]

high AC characters are great actually. But only if surrounded by other high AC characters.

Mass healing is always based off the lowest common denominator in those situtations... unless they're spot healing with scrolls. (like in a slow damage VoD).

High AC characters won't save any SP in a mass healing situation unless everyone has high AC, but they will still be "great" in the sense of being more survivable (which I think is the point of this thread).

[baddax]

But how do you create a char that does everything well?
If I could, I would.
It's certainly my goal to create as good char as I can.
But I create my chars for me to have fun with, not for other people to have fun with. (although I do hope the whole party has fun together)

For instance a Pal.
Pals get a lot from cha.
They also need Wis for spell points and to cast their spells
They need Str to do damage
They need Dex to have a decent AC
They need Int to have certain feats (like combat expertise)
And of course they need con because they are melee based and will be getting hit a lot.
How on earth do you make a Pal that can do it all?

Or something simpler...rogues.
I wand to sneak, I want to do trap, I want to survive traps!!!
I want to UMD, and diplo....and of course do damage.
I want to assassinate.
I chose a Drow 10/16/10/16/10/16(mising some points somewhere I think)
took all the damage enhancments I could, faster sneaking line....and even though she is underequiped she seldom gets agro, gets rid of it fast when she does, and does fabulous SA damage. Plus is decent on traps and ref save.
I've been very happy with her, and honestly can't figure out how I could have made her better.
More con? I'd rather have more Wisdom actually. (although a better fort save would be nice...darn stone scorpians in rainbow)
Tired of getting greater commanded when they didn't even see me, and Wis would help my spot skill.
Even with the 16 char (and a +6 cha item standard equip) I still feel like my UMD is too low.
Honestly, those people who claim auto success on heal scrolls are lying IMO.
16 (and +6) Int as I still fail trying to assassinate subterrain beholders.
High 20s dex(can't remember exactly) and I still fail trap saves.

Higher con is not what my rogue needs IMO.
I would like a better con item, and a better false life item.
Still need a minos helm...etc.

Rgrs need dex, str, con, and wis....and I don't want below 10 in other stats.
Plus I like elves and drow.
So guess what?.....my Rgrs will have a 12 con at creation, and I won't be taking a toughness feat. I want that displacement dragon mark, I want tempest III (4 feats I think) I want improved crit pierce, ranged and if I can get it slash too.
Don't see room in there for toughness......nope.
And those lvl up points will all be in dex.

Anyway, more HP is great. But there's so many other things I want to do with my builds.

Cha is too high, drop Cha by 4-6 and bump Con by 2 and wisdom by 2-4.

Craft a Charisma Skills item. Why do you need to auto sucess on Heal scrolls?Your primary job is as an assasin, how does this benifit your build? Also you could take the UMD skills feat if you wanted 100% success.

As far as assasinating beholders in the Sub-t i cant help you there, working on my first true assasin build myself. Maybe a more experienced assasin could answer that one.
I would seriously look at my gear selection and or enhancements myself.

Why are you having to survive traps? thats what barbarians are for. Very few traps require you to have to go through them to get to the trap box. Do you have improved evasion?

[Borror0]

How on earth do you make a Pal that can do it all?

Define 'all'. All that you've done is list a few of the many variables that one has to consider in building a paladins.

Cha is too high, drop Cha by 4-6 and bump Con by 2 and wisdom by 2-4.

Personally, I'd go human with 12/16/14/14/8/14 or drow 12/16/12/14/12/14 considering what he has set as goals.

You want to be able to grab Power Attack.

[baddax]

Define 'all'. All that you've done is list a few of the many variables that one has to consider in building a paladins.

Personally, I'd go human with 12/16/14/14/8/14 or drow 12/16/12/14/12/14 considering what he has set as goals.

You want to be able to grab Power Attack.

Do you really need PA?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Cha is too high, drop Cha by 4-6 and bump Con by 2 and wisdom by 2-4.

Craft a Charisma Skills item. Why do you need to auto sucess on Heal scrolls?Your primary job is as an assasin, how does this benifit your build? Also you could take the UMD skills feat if you wanted 100% success.

As far as assasinating beholders in the Sub-t i cant help you there, working on my first true assasin build myself. Maybe a more experienced assasin could answer that one.
I would seriously look at my gear selection and or enhancements myself.

Why are you having to survive traps? thats what barbarians are for. Very few traps require you to have to go through them to get to the trap box. Do you have improved evasion?

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
My Rog was wanf healing parties at a very low lvl.
I was diploing entire mobs at low lvl.
I've been happy with her high Cha.

And I want to fight "In" the trap!
Make those things work for me not against me.

I want success on things that keep me from getting hurt to begin with.

My builds aren't the best, but I've always concentrated on ways to keep from taking damage to begin with.
Builds, tactics, equiped items....etc. That's always been my focus.

But in this case, just to encourage others to build for fun, not build to the popular status quo.
All stats are important in DDO. it's a complicated game, that's what I like about it.
More than one way to play. chars are all different, different builds can be useful in different situations...etc.