The Great Con game.

[baddax]

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
My Rog was wanf healing parties at a very low lvl.
I was diploing entire mobs at low lvl.
I've been happy with her high Cha.

And I want to fight "In" the trap!
Make those things work for me not against me.

I want success on things that keep me from getting hurt to begin with.

My builds aren't the best, but I've always concentrated on ways to keep from taking damage to begin with.
Builds, tactics, equiped items....etc. That's always been my focus.

But in this case, just to encourage others to build for fun, not build to the popular status quo.
All stats are important in DDO. it's a complicated game, that's what I like about it.
More than one way to play. chars are all different, different builds can be useful in different situations...etc.

Sounds like you might be interested in splashing a few pally levels when the cap raises, to get your Cha bonus to all your saves. +6 to all of your saves is very nice imo. Also make sure you have improved evasion and bump your trap sense to max your Trap reflex saves.

[Borror0]

Do you really need PA?

Considering that it's a Dex-based rogue, yes. Undeads, constructs and elementals means you've got nearly no DPS otherwise.

It also means Fortification takes away from your DPS, a lot.

If tanking because a viable strategy with Module 9, it will be ridiculously easy for a rogue to never grab aggro. If the main tank is a fighter with the Stalwart Defender set and the rogue has Stubble Backstabbing IV, the Tharne Set and the Assassin set, the rogue will generate 38.4% threat while the fighter will be at 230% threat.

For the rogue to steal aggro from the fighter, the rogue would have to deal six times the damage of the fighter. Like that would happen!

Oh, and a paladin can stack even more hate generation!!

Sooner or later, the DDO developers will have to revise their approach to hate generation. As it is now, it's relative and cannot outclassed when levels are gained and problems of hate generation stacking will arise, unless the relative DPS gap between tanks and DPS keeps on growing but that has its dangers. If nothing is done, you end up in a situation where DPS cannot ever steal aggro. That's a problem.

Ideally, it would be better to switch to an absolute hate generation bonus system where the amount added per hit is a fixed amount of "damage equivalent".

But, yeah, Power Attack will be a good feat in module 9 unless only noobs bother with tanking, again.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Sounds like you might be interested in splashing a few pally levels when the cap raises, to get your Cha bonus to all your saves. +6 to all of your saves is very nice imo. Also make sure you have improved evasion and bump your trap sense to max your Trap reflex saves.

I want to keep my pure rog pure, but I've got a Tempest/Rog build that I'm lvling up, that I might take Pal 2 with for just that reason. Try to overcome some weaknesses I saw in my pure Rog, and still get most of the good things (high SA)

Pure Rog has great DPS, great versatility.
But lacks a decent ranged attack and fort/will saves are too low. (will prob build a shroud item to add to those saves)

I've got several evasion chars that I like to actually fight inside the trap at times.
It's a fun tactic that can really turn the tide of some battles.
I've always felt that the most important save is Ref.
Even without evasion, half damage from AOE is a good thing.

I've seen chars that I'm sure had more HP than me die much quicker.
You can see the red bars drop everytime a flamestrike goes off for instance.
All those extra HP do them no good. (it's one reason casters are killed first).

Air Ellies...hated by most. But high dex means high balance. Ranged capable means you can fight them effectively. High ref also means less damage from their lightning.
Use to be you could even save vs their knockdown. (or maybe it wasn't working)
took me awhile to even understand why people hated them so much.

[bobbryan2]

But how do you create a char that does everything well?

Well, we can try to talk about that.

For instance a Pal.
Pals get a lot from cha.
They also need Wis for spell points and to cast their spells
They need Str to do damage
They need Dex to have a decent AC
They need Int to have certain feats (like combat expertise)
And of course they need con because they are melee based and will be getting hit a lot.
How on earth do you make a Pal that can do it all?

Well, first and foremost. You need to decide what you want to do with a paladin. What you're describing here is more of a tank style paladin, and not a DPS paladin. But in general... you don't need wisdom, because you can cast spells easily with a starting 8. I started my paladin with an 8 wisdom, and he sits with about 550 spell points now. Crafted him a shroud spell point item with the existential stalemate item, and he's set for life.

Since he's a DPS paladin, I can easily dump intelligence for lack of needing combat expertise, and leave dex at a 15 (enough to get TWF with a +2 tome). That right there put your only real requirements at STR, Dex = 15, CON and CHA. Then I just evened those requirements where I could. 15 Charisma so I could get Divine Might 4 with a +5 tome (probably high for some, but I wanted the CHA), 16 str, and 14 con. Final build looked like 16 15 14 8 8 15.

That paladin will do everything he needs to do as a divine caster and as a DPS character. He also has 400+ hp without even really trying.

Or something simpler...rogues.
I wand to sneak, I want to do trap, I want to survive traps!!!
I want to UMD, and diplo....and of course do damage.
I want to assassinate.
I chose a Drow 10/16/10/16/10/16(mising some points somewhere I think)
took all the damage enhancments I could, faster sneaking line....and even though she is underequiped she seldom gets agro, gets rid of it fast when she does, and does fabulous SA damage. Plus is decent on traps and ref save.
I've been very happy with her, and honestly can't figure out how I could have made her better.
More con? I'd rather have more Wisdom actually. (although a better fort save would be nice...darn stone scorpians in rainbow)
Tired of getting greater commanded when they didn't even see me, and Wis would help my spot skill.
Even with the 16 char (and a +6 cha item standard equip) I still feel like my UMD is too low.
Honestly, those people who claim auto success on heal scrolls are lying IMO.
16 (and +6) Int as I still fail trying to assassinate subterrain beholders.
High 20s dex(can't remember exactly) and I still fail trap saves.

Well, I'll show you my rogue. I had taken this earlier today. I'm not saying it's the uberest rogue in the game, and it was really my first attempt. You could probably do a lot better with some class splashing... but I wanted to go pure for personal reasons.

She's got a couple of personally cast buffs on her... and that's my basic combat package. Including the DR 10/ clickies that aren't showing up. When in heavy combat (like 4 and 5 of shroud, she'll have an additional +2 str, and +4 con from double madstone putting her over 400 HP)



Edit Well, that picture isn't working. But it's just my human pure 16 rogue... current stats are 34 24 30 22 14 16, saves were 24 27 16, to hit (with PA on) +31 for both hands, Current HP 402/Edit

Now... obviously she has some flaws that other rogues might be better at. Some of the more dex based will have 4-5 points higher on reflex. And while I can get her UMD up to about 39 with a shroud item, it does take GH and shroud item to get there.

Now her starting stats were very similar to the paladin. 16 15 15 14 8 8.

It all comes down to knowing which stats you can modify after creation, and which stats you need to address right then.

And I can tell you... with a 34 str, dual greensteel khopeshes, and maxed out Sneak Attack damage and power attack.. Hamartia will lay stuff out.

[bobbryan2]

Basically... my main point is it's far easier to shore up a weak wisdom, charisma or int than it is to shore up a weak constitution.

[Thorzian]

its a sound idea as long as one point is recognized.. that low hp build needs high hp builds to hide behind... and better not ever roll a 1. a full party of characters built with this mentality, unless using extremely sound tactics(and thus slower than normal), is doomed to fail

[krud]

[Twerpp]

Considering that it's a Dex-based rogue, yes. Undeads, constructs and elementals means you've got nearly no DPS otherwise.

It also means Fortification takes away from your DPS, a lot.

If tanking because a viable strategy with Module 9, it will be ridiculously easy for a rogue to never grab aggro. If the main tank is a fighter with the Stalwart Defender set and the rogue has Stubble Backstabbing IV, the Tharne Set and the Assassin set, the rogue will generate 38.4% threat while the fighter will be at 230% threat.

For the rogue to steal aggro from the fighter, the rogue would have to deal six times the damage of the fighter. Like that would happen!

Haha man that info is gonna make the situation even funnier when it happens!

[bobbryan2]

If Bruce ****inson says he needs more Con, I say we give it to him!