Discussion: Improving S&B

[Borror0]

By that logic he is/was spec'd for S&B and slowly became spec'd for TWF as he leveled up.

I wouldn't say spec, but... capable? Like AD said, S&B doesn't require much investment. That's one of it's strength.

[...] then was I not indeed S&B spec'd?

You were a S&B fighter at that moment, yes. Spec'd? Not really. You were spec'd for TWF, but were currently better at S&B.

That's quite normal at lowe levels like earlier explained. But, to answer the question, you are S&B if using a shield. That means Heavy, list or tower. (Ok, Buckler too.)

So, I guess my point is that there are indeed reasons to be both S&B "spec'd" as well as something else, in my case TWF, at least up to a certain point. Especially since being S&B spec'd is practically automatic.

No. There ain't.

Sure, using a Shield is very rewarding at earlier levels. Up to level 6, everyone should be using a shield if they want to be 'the best'. However, once you get at cap or near cap, tell me what reasons there are to be S&B? What do you gain? More AC? We both know that is not the case. More DPS? Yeah right! Evasion? Nah. There are currently no reason to grab a shield and fight.

That's the problem and my point.

I say there is no evidence that S&B existed except as a Interim Style until a Fighter could could afford and/or qualify for TWF or THF.

My friend, Blazer, often kid about the fact that we don't receive a shield in our starter gear saying it proves the bias toward DPS spec'd builds.

However, your logic is flawed it requires to assume that the lack of evidences disproves.

But what, specifically in DDO, not PnP, not Fantasy Literature, but the DDO Game Mechanincs, ever suggested that there was a pathway for the S&B?

Its existence? Its domination at previous caps? The fact that its existence as an as viable alternative is desirable?

[...] now is really the time for folks to submit ideas.

Agreed!

[BurnerD]

I didn't read every post so maybe this has been stated...

My opinion is that it is not necessarily AC that is the problem. I do think that melee characters wearing heavy armor should get a DR advantage through an enhancement line that should stack with other forms of DR. The advantage of havy armor should be to absorb more damage.

I also agree shields could use some improvement. A shield with a stackable % to miss bonus (like blur) would be a nice touch. How about shields with DR clickies (limited use stoneskin clicky)?

"Armor Class" the term is obsolete imo. Defense should be broken down into something like:
Evasiveness and Damage Reduction (I'm sure better terms could be used).

Give more DR capability to heavy armor / shield melees and it will balance with high AC TWF's.

thoughts?

[eonfreon]

LOL, Borro, you must be as tired as I am. Because now you arguing semantics about something I'm in full agreement with.

Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
So, I guess my point is that there are indeed reasons to be both S&B "spec'd" as well as something else, in my case TWF,at least up to a certain point. Especially since being S&B spec'd is practically automatic.

No. There ain't.

Sure, using a Shield is very rewarding at earlier levels. Up to level 6, everyone should be using a shield if they want to be 'the best'. However, once you get at cap or near cap, tell me what reasons there are to be S&B? What do you gain? More AC? We both know that is not the case. More DPS? Yeah right! Evasion? Nah. There are currently no reason to grab a shield and fight.

"Up to a certain point" (at least to me) = "Using a Shield is very rewarding at earlier levels. Up to level 6, everyone should be using a shield if they want to be 'the best'."
And that "certain point" is long before "once you get at cap or near cap".
Therefore past that "certain point", "There are currently no reason to grab a shield and fight."
.

As for the rest, pretty decent points, and anyway whether I feel there truly is or isn't a precedent is really not relevant so I will drop that matter entirely.

The fact of the matter is, unless the Dev's step up and specifically say "No, S&B is not and has never been intended to be a viable Fighting Style beyond Low Levels", that S&B DOES NEED HELP to be a viable option and not just a throwaway concept done by Newbs (not Noobs) who don't know any better until they can reroll a TWF/THF, or a stepping stone to another Fighting Style.

[eonfreon]

I didn't read every post so maybe this has been stated...

My opinion is that it is not necessarily AC that is the problem. I do think that melee characters wearing heavy armor should get a DR advantage through an enhancement line that should stack with other forms of DR. The advantage of havy armor should be to absorb more damage.

I also agree shields could use some improvement. A shield with a stackable % to miss bonus (like blur) would be a nice touch. How about shields with DR clickies (limited use stoneskin clicky)?

"Armor Class" the term is obsolete imo. Defense should be broken down into something like:
Evasiveness and Damage Reduction (I'm sure better terms could be used).

Give more DR capability to heavy armor / shield melees and it will balance with high AC TWF's.

thoughts?

A bit in line with what I'm thinking.

I was thinking of Feats, but Items could work too.

I still think I prefer Feats to Items, simply because Feats would require choices:
Do I specialize as TWF, THF, S&B?
Do I have the Strength to make Stunning Blow useful?
Do I need Power Attack?
Combat Expertise?
Etc...

Bonuses on items are great but then they are more dependent on finding/buying them.
Certainly Gear can duplicate Feats and both could be available, but I'd be wary at how powerful to make those items.

If an Evasion Ring (just an extreme example) drops how do you balance that with the Evasion Classes and all those who sacrificed Hit Points or Spells or Feats or what have you by splashing Evasion Classes?
Do you maybe make it a clickie (like the Shield StoneSkin Clickie idea)?
If so how many charges is too many, too little?

How about Gear that rather than Replaces/Duplicates a Feat, it enhanced a Feat with a tiny chance of duplicating it.
Like Stunning and Impact (?) Weapons, if I recall correctly. A +amount to a person's Stunning Blow DC and a seperate 4(?)% chance to activate on it's own?

I like the ideas though.

[Turial]

Changes I would test out if I was a dev:

1. Increase mob species diversity in the new quests.
2. Alter icy rainments to be a +4 insight bonus to AC.
3. Alter the Towershield/bracers set bonus to be +3 dodge rather then +3 insight.
4. Have the monk AC bonus work as a % of monk levels. Level 1 monk keeps their full wis bonus to AC unless they multiclass, A 1x/1monk split would reduce the effective AC bonus by half, rounded up.
5. For towershields: test out giving them a concealment miss chance to players that use them. Somethings like x% base with an increase to that base for every +1 enhancement to the shield (this would require going back and giving some named loot effective + enhancements to determine the additional miss chance).
6. Remove favored defense.
7. Remove the tempest AC boost or add it to a higher tier of tempest.
8. Don't give dwarven defender a dodge ac bonus if it can be taken by non-fighter dwarves make it something similar to a stance that increases the bonus of the armor that the player has on.
9. Change it so that mobs don't have a static to-hit value but instead get something similar to ours so that a larger range of AC becomes useful (i.e. last x number of attacks should be where the normal attack is now, CON- mobs get more attacks but at a lower damage [hopefully]). Example: elite orthons in the shround currently hit a 57 AC on a roll of 7 or higher. This means +50 to-hit...under this system that would change to +40 +45 +50 or something similar depending on how many attacks mobs get.

[Gennerik]

I understand that a Paladin does not translate directly to Sword-and-Board, but why hasn't it been brought up? It seems that everyone keeps throwing around that your average Sword-and-Board character is a Fighter with more feats than they know what to do with. But what about the Paladin, who only has 6 feats (7 if Human). Sword-and-Board is a good choice when faced with a limited number of feats. You figure with Toughness, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, and Power Attack, you've already used up over half your feats. Add in to that the required Ability Scores and things get really tight to be a jack-of-all-combat.

And Turial, I like ideas 1-5, and for #5, perhaps all shields could simply have their Blocking DR also translate to a miss chance.

[Aesop]

Perhaps another way to look at things may be appropriate as well. Do we just want to go one way with shields or do we want options about how to go with shields... and Damage Mitgation in general.

What are some of the ways we mitigate damage in the game?

AC: if they can't hit you they can't hurt you (monk Splashed Rangers are king here)
DR: if they hit you they can't do a lot of damage to you (Blocking and Passive)
Avoidance: They can't hit you if you were never there (Dusk, Blur and Displacement)

We had a suggestion for a "Deflection Chance" for shields as one of the possibilities for a way to help S&B builds, this would be a 4th category really


So instead of putting all our eggs in one basket how about a couple eggs in each to help address the issues and make S&B a more viable option.

I mean I'm still liking a lot of my ideas and a bunch of other peoples ideas as well... (oof course I like my ideas ... they are mine and I'm just a little egotistical that way... I wouldn't post them unless I thought they had merit )


AC
To address the Light Fighter vrs Heavy Fighter issue we need ways of bumping up the Heavy Fighter or ways to bump down the Light Fighter. I'm loathe to really nerf the Light Fighter honestly... so I'm gonna try to bump up the Heavy Fighter.

Alchemical Rituals

Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking: Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields


Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Shields (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)(could also allow it to increase the Max Dex Bonus fromTower Shields)

another option here is to have this apply a mutliple tiered effect as well and have it cover a few diferent ideas at the same time.

Example:

Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. Increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1. Increases the DR while Blocking by 5.

This actaully sounds a little too powerful as I've written it (to me anyway) Perahps a minimum BAB for a Prerequisite would be in order or something else along those lines... however we must be careful not to make it too expensive.


These suggestions would improve S&B AC by 3 (posibly 4 for Tower Shield folk) at the cost of material components and a Feat... whether that is worth it or not or whether we need significantly more ... is something that needs to bantered about a bit

Another thing to consider is the Armor Mastery Enhancements. I think a slight change here would be better for fighters. Make the Armor Mastery Line only 2 tiers and create a Separate line called Armor Optimization that instead of increasing the Max Dex Bonus increases the Armor Bonus.

Fighter Armor Optimization I
2AP
+1 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)
FIghter Armor Optimization II
4AP
+2 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)


Fighter Armor Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus
Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus


Fighter Shield Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+2 Blocking DR any Shield

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+4 Blocking DR with any Shield




DR

One of Borror0's complaints about this is that it has become stale... I sorta understand where he is coming from but we should not ignore it either. Like I said a multifaceted and multi tiered approach is (I think) our best bet for a good system.

My first thought on this is to get rid of (or at least change) Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery. The Expense for the benefit is too high. It is the main Reason I put the +5 Blocking DR in Shield Specialization above. Blocking is a limited use ability that has its place, but that place needs to have an addition to it.

If we keep Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery then their DR bonus should apply as a Passive DR while using a Shield. Perhaps have this stack with some other dforms of DR... though we should tread lightly there.

Perhaps another way to go about this is to just remove the Feats and add other Feat to grant DR. Another Feat in the Players Handbook 2 is

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor

I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie: Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-


This may not sound like a lot of DR but over the course of a quest could add up significantly. But perhaps this one is too weak and a little more is needed as well

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 1/-with light armor DR 2/- with Medium Armor and DR 3/- with Heavy Armor +1 to Light Armors +2 to Medium Armor and a +3 to Heavy Armor (all after Material considerations) as well as a +1 Maximum Dexterity Bonus.


Though We don't really want to punish the light armor builds so perhaps some sort of compromise is needed there ... to be discussed I suppose.


Avoidance and Deflection

I'll address these together since they are closely linked.

Avoidance in this case falls under Concealment really where Deflection is more like a Parry. This is the most radical of the ideas that I've seen float across the forums for this subject... In a way its like double dipping but at the same time I do like the premise.

Essentially it applies an additional miss chance to attacks that hit the subjects AC beyond concealment. Sorta a last chance block if you will. Now there are a couple ways this could be applied. First you could have it negate the attckin total... Kinda powerful. Second you could have it deflect the power of the shot taking away a percentage (say 50%) or third you could have it apply the defenders Blocking DR.

I think for balance purposes applying the Blocking DR may be the best bet. However how often this applies is a trick. I think that having a rate of success based on the AC of the Shield (or whatever) may be a decent way to address this.

Why not just make it relative to the shield bonus and give Tower Shields a Bonus for Cover and Bucklers a penalty? 2% per point of Shield AC with the buckler counting as 1 lower and Tower Shields as 2 higher

so a +5 Buckler is 10%
and a +5 Tower Shield 22%

Now combine that with a few of the other ideas put forward in this post like the Alchemical Ritual modification and Shield Specialization Feat

and a +5 Alchemically Treated Buckler comes out as 14% and the Tower Shield as 30%

btw a top tier maxed out(+5 Ritual and Feat) Hvy Shield would yield 22%... not too bad considering. No real need for the Pally to get the Feat unless he really feels he needs to for his build.


Now add on to that the following two Feat that I heavily modified from the Players Handbook and I think we have a strong potential

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make AoO while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to be an additional 1% per Shield Bonus to Shield Deflection. So that top tiered Alchemically Enhanced Tower Shield goes from 20% Deflection rate to 45% and the Heavy Shield from 22% to 33%.


Shield Ward
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple

Now we don't have Touch Attacks in DDO... but we have Rays that we have little defense against. I think havingthis apply the Deflection rate against Rays would be a way to make this a highly desireable ability.

Damage
Now damage mitigation isn't the only issue with S&B fighting ... we also have a low damage whcih doesn't make the style very well liked.

A suggestion I made was giving S&B Passive Shield Bash sorta like the THF glancing blows and to improve th Feat Improved Shield Bash to improve that function. I'd say these Shield Bashes wouldn't be AOE like glancning blow but instead would apply to the target being attacked and would apply more direct damage.

I'm out of time right now though so I must away... please tear it apart and I'll try to have an open mind when reading the critiques... try being the operative word

Aesop

[Aesop]

Changes I would test out if I was a dev:

1. Increase mob species diversity in the new quests.

Absolutely

2. Alter icy rainments to be a +4 insight bonus to AC.

Like it Love it want more of it

3. Alter the Towershield/bracers set bonus to be +3 dodge rather then +3 insight.

NOt a fan of the Dodge Bonuses on items but I see why you'd want that... I'm on board

4. Have the monk AC bonus work as a % of monk levels. Level 1 monk keeps their full wis bonus to AC unless they multiclass, A 1x/1monk split would reduce the effective AC bonus by half, rounded up.

Make it more simple. Make it match the Monk level ... deep MC may have full or near full benefit but splash builds would not... ie 6 level of Monk = max of 22Wis (+6 Wis Bonus) to AC 1 Monk 1 Wis Bonus to AC


5. For towershields: test out giving them a concealment miss chance to players that use them. Somethings like x% base with an increase to that base for every +1 enhancement to the shield (this would require going back and giving some named loot effective + enhancements to determine the additional miss chance).

I have a thing on that in my list above

6. Remove favored defense.

No real opinion here... It kinda makes sense to me to exist I think

7. Remove the tempest AC boost or add it to a higher tier of tempest.

I'm more for a tone down on this and to make it work the way its supposed to

make tempest +1 AC lower Attack penalties by 1 and increase RoA by 5%

Tempest 2 would be +2AC lower Penalty again and RoA 10%


8. Don't give dwarven defender a dodge ac bonus if it can be taken by non-fighter dwarves make it something similar to a stance that increases the bonus of the armor that the player has on.

Not sure here either


9. Change it so that mobs don't have a static to-hit value but instead get something similar to ours so that a larger range of AC becomes useful (i.e. last x number of attacks should be where the normal attack is now, CON- mobs get more attacks but at a lower damage [hopefully]). Example: elite orthons in the shround currently hit a 57 AC on a roll of 7 or higher. This means +50 to-hit...under this system that would change to +40 +45 +50 or something similar depending on how many attacks mobs get.

I'm liking this idea as well. A range of useful ac is better than all or nothing

Aesop

[Turial]

....
And Turial, I like ideas 1-5, and for #5, perhaps all shields could simply have their Blocking DR also translate to a miss chance.

Only reason I am tieing it into tower shields is because tower shields at one point did provide cover to the user. Having blocking DR translate to a miss chance would make it so that my ranger would gain just as much from throwing up the hound heavy shield as a S&B character would useing the hound tower shield and I don't think that it would be fair to the S&B.

[Turial]

Aesop

Item 1, think mob diversity like stormcleave mixed with gylans vs threnal. The first would be a good example of mob diversity where the second is a poor mixture. Coal chamber would have been a good example if all of the mobs weren't fiend blooded.

Item 3, Not a fan either but because we have 2 of them with longstanding precedence, any new dodge bonuses should fall in those two slots, bracers and ring. Having it on the set bonus also makes it so that non-S&B dedicated characters are much less likely to gain the AC from it which makes S&B slightly more advantageous for AC.

Item 4 would work using the same method they use to calculate the SP gain a sorc multiclass gets from SP items.

Item 9 this has 2 reasons for why it should exist. 1. Allows for a range of AC's to be effective against some attacks. In my example a 50 AC would give you a 50/50 chance of avoiding the first attack while the other 2 would almost always hit. 2. It encourages people to move about to try and dodge the more likely to hit attacks which makes feats like spring attack more useful as they would negate the attack penalty rather then just as a step to getting something like tempest .

[Cold_Stele]

Wrong. That is not the cause at all.

The change you describe applies equivalently to all fighting styles: TWF, THF, and S&B. They all get a big bonus that means their final iterative attack will probably hit, instead of probably miss.

You give two other excellent reasons.

To say that the PnP version of GTWF adding an attack that will miss compared to DDO where it adds extra attacks that hit as having nothing to do with it is inaccurate though.

Sure in PnP all the later attacks in any fighting style miss which is what makes the styles more equal. All the later attacks hiting in DDO contributes to the inequality, along with the other very valid reasons you point out.

In PnP a TWF might only actually hit with 1 of his extra 3 attacks, he's at -2/-7/-12/-17 with the main hand, possibly even -4/-9/-14/-19 without OTWF. In DDO he will hit with all of his extra attacks(often with PA on). You yourself point out people don't take GTWF in PnP as it misses so I fail to see why you don't think this has a bearing on why DDO TWF is more powerful than it's PnP counterpart.

[Cold_Stele]

Moving on though...

The reason why this post along with Borro's other balance ones are doomed to failure though is simple -

1. There are a lot of people with very good TWF toons.

2. They hate seeing posts like this in case it means a nerf for them.

3. They'll argues that black is white and that there isn't any imbalance just to derail it. Just lok at all those pages of nonsense we had over a couple of points in AC.

I believe the mother of all derail threads may be the one I started about what was needed for the other melee classes to balance Crit Rage. It went for over 50 pages with Barbs denying there was even a problem and that Ftrs and Pallies were just as good as them.

[Alcides]

Moving on though...

The reason why this post along with Borro's is doomed to failure is very simple -

1. There are a lot of people with very good TWF toons.

2. They hate seeing posts like this in case it means for nerf for them.

3. They'll argues that black is white and that there isn't any imbalance just to derail it.

I believe the mother of all derail threads may be the one I started about what was needed for the other melee classes to balance Crit Rage. It went for over 50 pages with Barbs denying there was even a problem.

Fighters and Paladins should get more AC than any other class using S&B. A Divine Shield Enhancement, Shield of Warding Spell would be more than adequate for Paladins. As far as fighters go, giving them a straight bonus to AC is probably not out of the question now days.

Crit Rage I, II are stupid enhancements. I'm going to use a PnP argument against it. Don't bother with counter arguments stating this isn't PnP because they will be ignored. The only 2 WoTC classes that grant increased Critical Range beyond Improved Critical or Keen in PnP that I know of are the Weapon Master and Psionic Weapon Master PrCs. Fighters should have been granted a Weapon Master version. Barbarians should be given something along the lines of a Frenzied Berserker enhancement line instead.

[Aspenor]

How about instead of proposing nerfs (capping Wis bonus to AC on a monk splash? nothing less than a nerf. same as barb crit rage 2, the devs need to bring other characters up and not bring a small group of characters down in power) we propose ideas to bring S&B up in power?

Grant a cover bonus for using a shield. No cover bonus for bucklers, 5% cover for a light shield, 10% cover for a heavy shield, and 20% cover for a tower shield, stacking with items that grant concealment.

Translate the armor bonus to AC from wearing actual armor into a passive DR mechanic that stacks with other forms of DR.

I would propose, for example a fighter wearing a +5 mithral full plate gains +13 AC from his armor. Divide this number by 2, round down, and grant a +6 passive stacking DR/- for wearing a +5 full plate.

A second example for my proposal, wearing a +5 mithral chain shirt grants +9 AC from the armor and enhancement bonus. Divide this number by 2, round down, and grant a character wearing mithral chain a passive 4 DR/- for wearing armor.

This mechanic should even work for barbarians, both fleshie and warforged. A dwarf barbarian wearing a +5 mithral breastplate should receive stacking DR 5/-. A warforged wearing a +5 docent and adamantine body should receive stacking DR 6/- for his armor benefits. Mithral body would receive DR 5/- assuming a +5 docent.

I think that this would be a mechanic that everyone can agree on, and would balance armored characters with unarmored TWF.

[maddmatt70]

How about instead of proposing nerfs (capping Wis bonus to AC on a monk splash? nothing less than a nerf. same as barb crit rage 2, the devs need to bring other characters up and not bring a small group of characters down in power) we propose ideas to bring S&B up in power?

Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs. Crowd Cheers...

[oogly54]

Fighters and Paladins should get more AC than any other class using S&B. A Divine Shield Enhancement, Shield of Warding Spell would be more than adequate for Paladins. As far as fighters go, giving them a straight bonus to AC is probably not out of the question now days.

Crit Rage I, II are stupid enhancements. I'm going to use a PnP argument against it. Don't bother with counter arguments stating this isn't PnP because they will be ignored. The only 2 WoTC classes that grant increased Critical Range beyond Improved Critical or Keen in PnP that I know of are the Weapon Master and Psionic Weapon Master PrCs. Fighters should have been granted a Weapon Master version. Barbarians should be given something along the lines of a Frenzied Berserker enhancement line instead.

There IS a barbarian Critical Rage FEAT in the masters of the wild book. (I think that is the brbarian prestige class book, if not it is the barbarian book of the same type) Anyway, it is a feat, which barians do not get many of, making it an enhancment is a huge advantage. Also it is ONE specific weapon per feat. To give ALL weapons from an enhancment line is crazy, oh, and it is only ONE better, not two.

Back to OP questions. I like a lot of the ideas here. There is no way a non shield wearing, robe wearing, whatever should have better armor class than a Full Plate Mail, tower shield holding tank. When somoene is whirling and twirling in order to be able to attack 10 times in 10 seconds (standard round), how likly are they paying attention to not getting hit themselves and using that same dex to have the mobs 6-10 attacks miss? Why did the DEVs not see this as a problem makes me really question there knowledge of DnD. There needs to be a cap of dex bonus to AC. There needs to be a cap on WIS bonus to AC based on levels of monk. There needs to be a cap on dodge bonus to AC. Cry nerf, but if you dont see the problem, you yourself need help.

[Aspenor]

Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs Nerfs. Crowd Cheers...

Indeed.

I remember the many calls of "ZOMG NERF CASTERZZ!!! Why would anybody bring anything other than 2 clerics and 4 sorcerers into any quest?"

Now we have most high level parties back to running 1 or 2 casters in a 12 person party. This was not due to the many NERFS that were proposed, but instead the developers (intelligently, I might add) developed content that effectively reduced the power level of arcane casters against the monsters primarily fought.

In this case, bring others up, but do not bring monsters up, and do not NERF characters that many people have come to love as their favorite.

[Aspenor]

There IS a barbarian Critical Rage FEAT in the masters of the wild book. (I think that is the brbarian prestige class book, if not it is the barbarian book of the same type) Anyway, it is a feat, which barians do not get many of, making it an enhancment is a huge advantage. Also it is ONE specific weapon per feat. To give ALL weapons from an enhancment line is crazy, oh, and it is only ONE better, not two.

Back to OP questions. I like a lot of the ideas here. There is no way a non shield wearing, robe wearing, whatever should have better armor class than a Full Plate Mail, tower shield holding tank. When somoene is whirling and twirling in order to be able to attack 10 times in 10 seconds (standard round), how likly are they paying attention to not getting hit themselves and using that same dex to have the mobs 6-10 attacks miss? Why did the DEVs not see this as a problem makes me really question there knowledge of DnD. There needs to be a cap of dex bonus to AC. There needs to be a cap on WIS bonus to AC based on levels of monk. There needs to be a cap on dodge bonus to AC. Cry nerf, but if you dont see the problem, you yourself need help.

As previously stated, there are ways to effectively balance this issue WITHOUT nerfs. Everything you have proposed is a NERF, nothing less.

And you might want to be careful with those personal insults at the end of your post. You get infraction points on these forums for insulting the intelligence of a person whose opinion differs from your own.

[maddmatt70]

Indeed.

I remember the many calls of "ZOMG NERF CASTERZZ!!! Why would anybody bring anything other than 2 clerics and 4 sorcerers into any quest?"

Now we have most high level parties back to running 1 or 2 casters in a 12 person party. This was not due to the many NERFS that were proposed, but instead the developers (intelligently, I might add) developed content that effectively reduced the power level of arcane casters against the monsters primarily fought.

In this case, bring others up, but do not bring monsters up, and do not NERF characters that many people have come to love as their favorite.

I agree. Casters and Clerics were not nerfed but rather less was added to them when the cap went up to 16 and the mob and end boss selection were less caster friendly (spell resistance and high save mobs for the most part and mob bosses with spell mantles on them). Clerics did not get very good 8th level spells to choose from (flame strike and firestorm both suck in ddo unfortunately). No superior potency 7 or greater potency 8 for that matter were added reducing the caster's new spells effectiveness.

Turbine can do the same thing with thf, sword and board, and twf that it did regarding casters and clerics. Just add less with twf when the cap goes up and more for thf and S&B and make mobs that other weapon fighting styles are more effective against. Higher DR mobs that transmuters don't work on for instance to help thf out and mobs with more frequent attacks but less damaging attacks that character dr with shields would help out more on. Unique weapons that you can only get one of like the Holy Avenger for paladins, etc.

This whole thread is kind of silly because mod9 is almost certainly already planned out and development is in the process right now. Mod10 is more the target date for influence for forum threads like this, but I for one would rather the devs work on Druids and Half-orcs then S&B, but I guess that is just me.

[Dexxaan]

Moving on though...

The reason why this post along with Borro's other balance ones are doomed to failure though is simple -

1. There are a lot of people with very good TWF toons.

2. They hate seeing posts like this in case it means a nerf for them.

3. They'll argues that black is white and that there isn't any imbalance just to derail it. Just lok at all those pages of nonsense we had over a couple of points in AC.

I believe the mother of all derail threads may be the one I started about what was needed for the other melee classes to balance Crit Rage. It went for over 50 pages with Barbs denying there was even a problem and that Ftrs and Pallies were just as good as them.

Classic forum Life. And unfortunately true.

And you might want to be careful with those personal insults at the end of your post. You get infraction points on these forums for insulting the intelligence of a person whose opinion differs from your own.

Of course some people are more "sensitive" than others. Insulting someone´s intelligence is excessively easy and sometimes needed in order to not allow empty rhetoric to fill the gap between where you are and where you need to be headed.