Discussion: Improving S&B

[Borror0]

Be one with your hate. The Dark Side is the only way...

Honestly, Asp, do I need to explain you the consequences of item inflation?

[Aspenor]

Honestly, Asp, do I need to explain you the consequences of item inflation?

It is far too late for that, padawan....

[Borror0]

May I remind you of the Divine Shield Feat [...] and the Shield of Warding [...] spell.

So? It's not because they exist in PnP that we should import them.

I guess you could count barbs (although they are better served as DPS melee).

No, you can't include barbs because their whole concept is sacrificing AC for damage.

As for fighters, they are about choices. They are not better at S&B, THF or TWF. They got all three options opened to them.

Not to mention if I'm being defensive I should have AC through the roof. DDO should be the quintessential power of D&D, anything less is unnacceptable.

Not sure if I really understand what you mean here...

[Alcides]

So? It's not because they exist in PnP that we should import them.

No, you can't include barbs because their whole concept is sacrificing AC for damage.

As for fighters, they are about choices. They are not better at S&B, THF or TWF. They got all three options opened to them.

Not sure if I really understand what you mean here...

No those two abilities are important because they contribute to palaflation, which counteracts barbflation and rangflation. All of which will provide to the betterment of the mudflation of DDO.

Barbs being defensive tanks depends on your view of DR...

Again DDO should be the quintessential power game. No nerfs is good nerfs...

[Kaldais]

No. The higher stats are almost entirely compensated for by the higher dex bonus allowed by heavy armor.

If you want to focus the blame on only one thing, it's magic items, and primarily Magic items which increase AC but which are incompatible with heavy armor / tower shields. In two words: Icy Rainments.

(Of course there are other causes too, but that's the most prominent)

I disagree. Math shows a majority of AC gained over S&B by simply looking at 2 equipment slots, Armor and Bracer, is caused by stats. I'm not even using the case of possible 40 dex here. Then you add in monk splash... another stat related AC bonus.

34 dex = +12
+8 Bracers of Armor = +8 base
Icy = +4 dodge
= 24

+5 MFP = +13 base
16 dex = +3
Chaos guard = +2 dodge
= 18

[Alcides]

I disagree. Math shows a majority of AC gained over S&B by simply looking at 2 equipment slots, Armor and Bracer, is caused by stats. I'm not even using the case of possible 40 dex here. Then you add in monk splash... another stat related AC bonus.

34 dex = +12
+8 Bracers of Armor = +8 base
Icy = +4 dodge
= 24

+5 MFP = +13 base
16 dex = +3
Chaos guard = +2 dodge
= 18

Don't forget to throw in 5+ AC for monk wisdom vs a +5 Mithral Tower/Heavy Shield :P

[Kaldais]

Don't forget to throw in 5+ AC for monk wisdom vs a +5 Mithral Tower/Heavy Shield :P

Only 5+? a 24 wis easily obtainable = +7 ac
Not even adding in TW defense is already 4AC over the AC obtained by using a +5 mithral tower shield. That stat dependant discrepancy will only increase as +5 stat tomes becomes available as will as epic stat bonus items and feats.

[Turial]

Applying some of my suggestions a bit back we see the following changes:

Dex Based
10 Base
+14 Dexterity
+8 Armor
+1 Two-Weapon Defense
+5 Dodge (Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
+4 Insight (Icy Rainment)
+5 Deflection
+5 Combat Expertise (+2 tempest ranger)
52 Unbuffed AC (ranger 54)
+3 Barkskin (ranger +5)
+1 Dodge (Haste)
+4 Shield (Shield wand) (eliminate stacking for the tempest bonus with shield wands)
60 AC self-buffed (ranger 64)


Tank Fighter/Paladin
10 Base
+13 Armor +5 MFP
+9 Shield +5 Hound Tower
+6 Dex (Armor Mastery and Tower Shield Mastery enhancements)
+5 Deflection
+5 Combat Expertise
+9 Dodge (Dodge Feat, Shield Ritual, Armor Ritual, Bracers Set Bonus, Chattering Ring)
+4 Insight (Shroud Item)
+2 Aura
63 Unbuffed
+3 Barkskin
+1 Dodge (Haste)
67 Self-buffed

Capping the wisdom bonus to AC from monk levels to a % based on monk levels (similar to how sorcerer levels give extra SP) would limit the ranger/monk to getting 1-2 more AC from a monk splash. Also the elimination of Favored Defense would eliminate another +3 AC boost from one side.

[Aspenor]

or we could NOT nerf, and come up with ideas that follow the current developer position of buffing others and not taking from the few.

[ArkoHighStar]

No. The higher stats are almost entirely compensated for by the higher dex bonus allowed by heavy armor.

If you want to focus the blame on only one thing, it's magic items, and primarily Magic items which increase AC but which are incompatible with heavy armor / tower shields. In two words: Icy Rainments.

(Of course there are other causes too, but that's the most prominent)

Agreed Icy vestments basically made full plate useless as you could easily replicate its +13 AC bonus with +8 armor bracers, and the alchemical dodge bonus, You basically have +5 MFP with virtually unlimited max dex bonus, giving the average dex tempest build

+8 AC from bracers
+4 dodge from icy vestments
+1 eldritch bonus
+2 tempest bonus
11 dex bonus (32 dex)
26 armor bonus wearing no armor

A fighter wearing +5MFP with a +5MTS and fighter armor mastery 3 and tower shield mastery 2 will hit

+13 base ac from MFP
+9 from tower shield
+6 dex (dwarves can get a +7 if they have 24 dex get armory mastery to a combo of 4 and tower shield mastery to 3)
28 armor bonus (dwarf 29)

so your average dex build with 6 lvls of ranger with no armor has 2 less AC than a full plate wearing tower shield carrying fighter who has gimped his strength in order to max AC, on top of that he can actually deal out damage at a much hgher rate.

This does not even take into consideration a splash of monk or paladin to the ranger build where you could easily add another +4 AC putting the dex build over the fighter in achievable AC. And because we no longer fight a variety of monsters favored enemy if chosen correctly is pretty much always on and you can add another +3 AC if desired

[Turial]

or we could NOT nerf, and come up with ideas that follow the current developer position of buffing others and not taking from the few.

Like +10 armor? To boost Armored AC up to where it is the same investment and reward as unarmored AC would take a bit.

[Aspenor]

Like +10 armor? To boost Armored AC up to where it is the same investment and reward as unarmored AC would take a bit.

Indeed, quite a bit, and luckily I made this because I knew it would get buried in this discussion.

[Turial]

I assume that the DR mechanic would ignore things like mage armor spells and armored bracers when calculating DR for a character?

[Aspenor]

I assume that the DR mechanic would ignore things like mage armor spells and armored bracers when calculating DR for a character?

absolutely.

[oogly54]

Adding DR improvments does not address the obvious issue with a robe wearing two handed ranger having more AC than a Full Plate wearing, tower shield holding tank. There should be no way the ranger could have as much AC. There should be a cap on DEX to AC and a Cap based on monk levels as to how much WIS you can use for AC. Dodge bonus should have a cap as well.

I would put a max of 10 for each. So it is still possible to have a very high AC with 10 WIS AC, 10 DEX AC, and 10 Dodge, but you would gimp yourself in other stats to do so.

[Borror0]

No those two abilities are important because they contribute to palaflation, which counteracts barbflation and rangflation.

Yup but palaflation, rangflation and barbflation are all bad things for the game. Bad thing + bad thing + bad thing = More bad things.

Bad things != Good things.

[maddmatt70]

Explain me that logic. I can easily why rangers get bow/TWF focused abilities, but they are the only ones.

I have always disagreed with rangers getting bow strength and other classes not getting access to it - this is not D&D like. I should not have to splash ranger on my bow shooting fighter or bow shooting rogue.

[maddmatt70]

No. The higher stats are almost entirely compensated for by the higher dex bonus allowed by heavy armor.

If you want to focus the blame on only one thing, it's magic items, and primarily Magic items which increase AC but which are incompatible with heavy armor / tower shields. In two words: Icy Rainments.

Agreed the Icy Rainments are the largest issue. 4 less ac would make a big impact or 4 greater ac for armored characters conversely.

[Borror0]

I have always disagreed with rangers getting bow strength and other classes not getting access to it - this is not D&D like. I should not have to splash ranger on my bow shooting fighter or bow shooting rogue.

Agreed. Like all ranger combat abilities that are focused on TWF or ranged combat, they should be available as a normal feat as well.

But that's a totally different topic.

[Alcides]

Yup but palaflation, rangflation and barbflation are all bad things for the game. Bad thing + bad thing + bad thing = More bad things.

Bad things != Good things.

Since Nerf bats are limp and fallop, I suggest we find another means to quench your insatiable appetite to achieve a more satisfactory outcome that is mutually beneficial to everyone