Discussion: Improving S&B

[eonfreon]

Hi. Tower shields disable evasion. Bye.

Oh, ok.
So a S&B only exists with a Tower Shield.
Gotcha.
My bad, I assumed S&B could also mean Sword and Shield.
I thought Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery applied to all shields.
My apologies.
Obviously, I should have realized that in hindsight. S&B = Sword and Board, obviously "Board" means a Huge Shield.
Thank you for helping me out and in such a pleasant manner too.

[Borror0]

You asked why would you do both, if you had the stats to be both S&B and TWF.
To which I replied; because you have the FEATS if you're a 16th Level Fighter.

Yes, but why would you use S&B at all? It's sub-par in every way! That was my point!!

And not, S&B is not shield blocking. Sword and Board... Shield blocking. Two different words. There is a reason to it.

[...] why do you believe a S&B is a Specialist Fighting Style (or should be), rather than, as I believe, a replacement Fighting Style for someone who either does not have the gear or stats to be TWF, or as a Defensive DR Blocking Style as it currently is?

Why it's not a replacement?

First, because it wasn't. To believe S&B now is a replacement, you've got to assume that Turbine changed their definition of the fighting style and you've got to tell yourself that "It's obvious that Turbine told themselves that S&B should stop being used as a decent way to fight and rather be used by those who lack the gear or stats to be TWF." as well as thinking that "It's obvious that Turbine really wants to reduce the number of possible viable builds in-game as they really want to get less out of their investments to a point where they have invested developing time in reducing the build options into making S&B less attractive to play (rather than in developing them). This is the reason they have now made S&B really unattractive to spec for as they now believe it should be seldom used. Less options FTW!" I doubt that you are thinking that because of how unlikely it is that Turbine would make such irrational conclusions! If you are thinking that, well you're most likely wrong.

Then, because it's desirable to have more fighting styles in-game. The more options there are, the better it is. Ask around and you will see that character customization is one of the stronger selling points of this game. People love it. That is the biggest strength of 3,5 D&D and it is also something that players enjoy. Being able to choose between TwF, ThF and S&B is a good thing. It's way better than choosing between TWF and THF... and having S&B if you lack "gear or stats to be TWF".

Lastly, because THF does a better job at being good without requiring spec'ing into it.

[Borror0]

Yes, it's incredibly tough to splash 2 levels of Rogue or 2 Levels of Monk.

Nah, more like it's costing you an extra 3 AC.

[Angelus_dead]

Lastly, because THF does a better job at being good without requiring spec'ing into it.

It's funny though, the effective difference between someone with GTHF and no THF feats is much greater than between someone with ISB and no shield fields (aside from Tower Prof). That's because the DR and bashing bonuses of the shield feats only rarely become a factor in combat, while the extra damage of GTHF is frequently helpful.

[Borror0]

It's funny though, the effective difference between someone with GTHF and no THF feats is much greater than between someone with ISB and no shield fields (aside from Tower Prof). That's because the DR and bashing bonuses of the shield feats only rarely become a factor in combat, while the extra damage of GTHF is frequently helpful.

That's very true, but let's not forget that THF is less gear dependant than S&B (no Chattering ring, Mith FP, etc.) and also less stat dependant as it requires less Dex and less Int.

Int being such a dumb stat usually, THF is the best while not spec'd properly for it. All it asks, is an high Str which is something quite common.

[eonfreon]

Why it's not a replacement?

First, because it wasn't. To believe S&B now is a replacement, you've got to assume that Turbine changed their definition of the fighting style and you've got to tell yourself that "It's obvious that Turbine told themselves that S&B should stop being used as a decent way to fight and rather be used by those who lack the gear or stats to be TWF." as well as thinking that "It's obvious that Turbine really wants to reduce the number of possible viable builds in-game as they really want to get less out of their investments to a point where they are going to invest developing time reducing the build options into making it less attractive to play. As a result, they have now made S&B really unattractive to spec for as they now believe it should be seldom used." I very doubt that you are thinking that, because of how unlikely it is that Turbine would make such irrational conclusions!

Then, because it's desirable to have more fighting styles in-game. The more options there are, the better it is. Ask around and you will see that character customization is one of the stronger selling points of this game. People love it. That is the biggest strength of 3,5 D&D and it is also something that players enjoy. Being able to choose between TwF, ThF and S&B is a good thing. It's way better than choosing between TWF and THF... and having S&B if you lack "gear or stats to be TWF".

Lastly, because THF does a better job at being good without requiring spec'ing into it.

Okay, I'll buy that.
But please point to me and show what has changed? Other than the game progressing to higher levels?
Is it the Unholy Monk Tempest Ranger Combo?
I've heard it said that S&B was King up until 10th level when 10 was the cap.
Is it not still King up until 10th?
Has S&B attack speed been slowed down?
Yes, I know Tempest Rangers are 10% better than Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian TWF and has 2 points of AC more.
So is that the problem?
When I was leveling my Ranger/Fighter I used my shield a lot because I would intimidate and the +7 to my AC was a huge boon since I pulled ALL the aggro, allowing the TWF Ranger/Rogue to get backstabbing with impunity or the Wizard to throw down a FireWall without fear of having to run like a headless chicken.
And I know I'm a darn good player, but I'm not so much better than everyone else, and yet I kept up with kills, just from swinging my vanilla +whatever Dwarf Axe.
After a certain level I didn't feel the need for my Shield because my Gear and Speed increased so much.
The only times I used the shield was when the Group was in over their heads, and I gave up my KillCount for the good of the Group, picked my Shield back up, and hit intimidate. I wasn't blocking, I was swinging.
Does that not count as S&B because it wasn't a Tower Shield?
Because I went for AC instead of DR? No wait, Blocking isn't S&B- since S&B uses the shield for AC not Blocking- since I didn't have enough fighter levels for Tower Shield Enhancements isn't a Heavy Steel Shield the equivalent?
I seriously didn't know that if that's not the case.

[Borror0]

What do you mean?

Mithril Breastplate has a 10 Armor bonus and is the light armor with the highest Armor Bonus.
Mithril Fullplate has a 13 Armor but is a medium armor.

Evasion only works in light or no armor.
(Actually the loss can go up to 4 if you're using dragonscale armor.)

[eonfreon]

Nah, more like it's costing you an extra 3 AC.

What do you mean?

[eonfreon]

LOL.
Don't think I've ever seen so many Ninja Posts.

[Borror0]

But please point to me and show what has changed?

While TWF and THF always had better DPS output, S&B always was the best at AC until very recently.

However, we were already assisting to the slow death of S&B. At the earliest levels, the DPS gap between S&B and THF is very small. So small, actually, that anyone using TWF or THF is using it for personal reasons (ie "I feel like it." or "I want to get used to my squishiness.") rather than for effectiveness. Also, at early levels it is quite easy to get decent AC. The encounters are not balanced for twinked out characters and the "good gear" is not that harder to find. Shortly put, you don't need to specialized for AC.

As you gain in levels, you gain more Str, more DPS feat and more to-hit. All of a sudden, stances that decreases your to-hit like CE and PA becomes viable, which they rarely were at earlier levels as you kept on missing over and over again! The DPS gap of DPS between someone spec for it and someone who is not has became greater. S&B is slowly falling behind. Then, around the Gianthold era, S&B fell clearly behind. The need for specialization had became much greater and the DPS gap had became also much greater.

As you know, we're in a very DPS-centric game. DPS is important. It's what gets you through a quest. While staying alive is cool, it's not much good if you can't kill the final boss. So, for as long as the cleric can keep you alive and that you're cheaper alive than dead, all goes fine. For that reason, a character sacrificing too much for survivability and handicapping his DPS by a too great amount is often considerate sub-par.

When Icy Rainment, monk AC bonus and Tempest I were added along with two-weapon fighting getting more swings in the "same" amount of time, it was the last nail in S&B's coffin. A fighting style that already needed some loving (as recognized by Eladrin a long while ago), was attacked in the only field it still excelled! All of sudden, another fighting style that sacrificed less DPS to become more survivable appeared!

That is what has changed.

[Angelus_dead]

Okay, I'll buy that.
But please point to me and show what has changed? Other than the game progressing to higher levels?

The number of attacks for TWF was increased. GTWF did not used to give you 2x the number of attacks per cycle. Now it does.

I've heard it said that S&B was King up until 10th level when 10 was the cap.
Is it not still King up until 10th?

There are a few reasons for that:
1. DDO's TWF feats are delayed behind BAB increases for iterative attacks, so it takes more levels to reach the point where TWF is a good idea.
2. Before around level 10 you don't have Heavy Fortification and Heal spells. (That relates to the difference between offensive and defensive styles, and the membership of TWF and S&B swap between those categories as you level)
3. The best TWF AC items can't be worn at such low levels.
4. There are limited numbers of good feats in DDO. At below level 10, training TWF feats can take a noticable chunk out of your feat slots. Past level 10 you run out of other good things to spend feats on.

[Angelus_dead]

While TWF and THF always had better DPS output, S&B always was the best at AC until very recently.

Fun fact: Prior to module 3, S&B had better DPS than TWF.

Oh, and you had to choose your offhand weapon by opening the inventory and dragging the icon with the mouse...

[Borror0]

Fun fact: Prior to module 3, S&B had better DPS than TWF.

hehe, I wasn't around. Good to know though. Logical also, the real DPS starts at GTWF and TWF is only 'worth it' with ITWF

Did they also improve TWF in that Module?

[Angelus_dead]

Did they also improve TWF in that Module?

There have been at least 2 separate changes improving TWF, but I don't quite remember when. I suppose one was mod 6, and the other (lesser) one was earlier.

[eonfreon]

Mithril Breastplate has a 10 Armor bonus and is the light armor with the highest Armor Bonus.
Mithril Fullplate has a 13 Armor but is a medium armor.

Evasion only works in light or no armor.
(Actually the loss can go up to 4 if you're using dragonscale armor.)

Well yes I know, but:
MFP has a Dex Max of 3.
MBP has a Dex Max of 5.

A Non-Dwarf, Dex Based Fighter with Armor Mastery III would have:
MFP: 19 (+6 Dex Bonus Allowed) 22 Dex
MBP: 18 (+8 Dex Bonus Allowed) 26 Dex or 17 if he only got as high as 24 Dex and would save one Enhancement and Consequently 6 AP and is far more common than 26 Dex Fighters.
17 Starting Dex +6 Item +1 Rogue (two levels of Rogue for Evasion = Rogue Dex I unlocked)= 24
17 Dex +6 Item +1 Rogue + 2 Tome = 26

If Dwarf Dex Fighter with both Armor Mastery III and Dwarf Armor Mastery III
MFP: 22 (+9 Dex Bonus Allowed) And you would need a 28 Dex
Pretty tough to get but not impossible: 18 Dex +6 Item +1 Rogue +3 Tome
MBP: 22 (+12 Dex Bonus Allowed) And you would need a 32 Dex
Nearly impossible for a Dwarf:
18 Dex +6 Item +4 Level Ups +1 Rogue and either a +3 Tome or a Tier III Green Steel Weapon for +3 Dex.

And even the loss of 3 AC for Evasion would be a viable choice depending on the circumstances.

[Borror0]

I suppose one was mod 6, and the other (lesser) one was earlier.

They improved GTWF in Module 6 ("Greater two weapon fighting now enables an extra left hand attack hook while standing, making it more consistent with mobile attacks.").

The other, I guess, is Module 3. ("Dual-wielding has been improved.")

[Borror0]

Well yes I know, but:
MFP has a Dex Max of 3.
MBP has a Dex Max of 5.

Yes, but getting to 22 Dex is much easier than getting to 26.

Not only that, but getting to 26 Dexterity cuts Tower Shield and leads to a decrease of AC by two, as Angelus dead has previously mentioned! (Or 3 if you used dragonplate armor.) Now, you could lower the AC to 1 (or two if you used dragonplate armor) by going with 24 Dex, but that is still an AC loss.

Not to mention that 24 Dex is quite expensive to get. It requires 16 base Dex, a +2 tome and choosing rogue over monk.

And even the loss of 3 AC for Evasion would be a viable choice depending on the circumstances

True, but TWF doesn't have to face that loss.

[eonfreon]

The number of attacks for TWF was increased. GTWF did not used to give you 2x the number of attacks per cycle. Now it does.

So you're saying that they went back and increased TWF speed across the board?
Or did TWF overtake S&B as the levels increased?
If the latter, then can't it be argued that that is simply a consequence of the leveling process?
That's what it seems you are saying below about about S&B being better up until Level 10 for the following reasons:

There are a few reasons for that:
1. DDO's TWF feats are delayed behind BAB increases for iterative attacks, so it takes more levels to reach the point where TWF is a good idea.
2. Before around level 10 you don't have Heavy Fortification and Heal spells. (That relates to the difference between offensive and defensive styles, and the membership of TWF and S&B swap between those categories as you level)
3. The best TWF AC items can't be worn at such low levels.
4. There are limited numbers of good feats in DDO. At below level 10, training TWF feats can take a noticable chunk out of your feat slots. Past level 10 you run out of other good things to spend feats on.

Now if you're saying that TWF was increased because of the increase in GTWF, then I begin to see your point about what has BEEN changed.
If you're saying that TWF was inferior up until level 10 because TWF didn't have access to GTWF until level 11, then
it wasn't changed, so much as evolved as the level cap progressed.

If the former than I can see why that can be seen as unfair.
If it was changed, when was it changed?
Nevermind, I see it was answered already.

[Angelus_dead]

If the latter, then can't it be argued that that is simply a consequence of the leveling process?

Sure, but that's meaningless, because being a consequence of leveling doesn't prove that something is good game design. The leveling effect itself is an aspect of the game design, which may be good or bad.

Now if you're saying that TWF was increased because of the increase in GTWF, then I begin to see your point about what has BEEN changed.

The history of things that changed is not really my point. What matters is how things work now. The past has some value when it can illluminate what the intentions are for the game design, which is a good comparison for what the current results actually are, but it's never been a key point of this thread.

[QuantumFX]

So you're saying that they went back and increased TWF speed across the board?

No, what he's saying is that the number of attacks in a single attack sequence was dramatically increased. (and no this has before the tempest speed boost.) The attack ratio between main hand to off hand went from 1.5 to 1.86. In P&P it's 1.75. However, this ratio also including the extra attack that Turbine gave exeryone.