32 point build veteran award

[KristovK]

Ok..someone who deletes and rolls a new character whenever they hit 10th is complaining about the grind to hit a certain Favor requirement...is anyone else laughing at this or is it just me?

Seriously...how many times have you done WW now Spill? STK...Delera's...Tangleroot...Stormcleave...Inform ation is Key...the Wavecrest? And you complain that doing quests you've never seen or done is a grind?

Sorry, but that right there makes your argument seem rather...silly.

Back when the 1750 Favor required running just about every single quest in the game on elite, it could be a grind, true enough, that's when I hit it myself. Now, I've got characters I started a month ago who are at 1000+ favor at level 10 and a few of those haven't even entered GH yet. No grinding involved for the Favor, just playing the quests between 1 and 10, often on elite the first and only time I've run them. In the process I've gotten extra backpack space, extra bank space, buffs from P and J, time warp trinket and returning ammo and cheaper Silver Flame costs for healing. And there's still a lot of 1-10th level quests I haven't done yet on those characters, which will increase my Favor another few hundred points. Once I start doing Restless Isles and GH, I'll have my 1750 without having to had actually grind anything beyond the fact that I'm redoing quests I've done as a player many times already..on different characters.

Sorry, but Favor rewards are for the people who actually put the time INTO THE GAME, not into their subscription, to earn those rewards. Casual players can attain them just as easy as any powergamer, not as quickly maybe, but just as easily. And lets face it, Favor rewards are pretty pointless to someone to constantly deletes and rolls new characters, with the exception of being able to make 32pt characters, which would still be pretty pointless as you'd just be deleting those characters anyway.

[TheGreatEye]

Sorry, but Favor rewards are for the people who actually put the time INTO THE GAME, not into their subscription, to earn those rewards.

Ok, I play permadeath. I do put time into the game, and yet I cant see every making 1750 with any one character. How does offfering it as a veteran reward to long term players affect you? Or is permadeath not a valid playstyle?

[Nealgus]

I agree that Vet rewards are a valid method to reward people for helping keep a game alive. Why not make a vet reward for a 2 or 3 year reward. It could be something to this effect:

Option 1: Unlock 32pt build (Valuable to the casual gamer who just does not have the time or energy to get 1750.)
Option 2: Gain an additional character slot (Valuable to power gamers who already have 9 chars, and the 1750 favor.)

You only get one choice.

Leave the reward of unlocking the 32pt build and the +2 tome at 1750 in game.

Problem solved. The casual gammer does not need a 10th char slot and the power gamer does not need to unlock 1750. Both have an acceptable reward for paying money each mont and having diffrent play styles.

[Zenako]

Consider that a large portion of the rationale for the total favor reward was to encourage players to see all or most of the quests in the game and to move them away from running the same handful of quests over and over and over and then complaining how they were hopelessly bored running those same quests over and over and over and over.

So to encourge players to spend time in and experience other quests in the game, the developers needed to create a carrot to dangle at the end of that stick that would be worth the effort. They decided on three things. One was a CHARACTER Reward of a +2 tome of choice to that character (which is equal or better than 4 build points in most cases). The other two were Player rewards, and extra character slot, and resetting the character build option from 28 build points to 32 build points for new characters. At the time it came out, hitting 1750 was not an easy thing to do. Hitting 1750 now is a whole world of effort easier than it was back then. It can almost happen without focusing on it.

What the OP was requesting was some sort of Player Reward for just being. We already have some player rewards in game from certain types of account sign ups (bound 5% striding boots to start with for example), but those all tend to be item based. If you come up with just resetting some existing award based on accomplishement to now be given for just being, that gets a response as you have seen. What would be more viable would be some sort of perk or reward that is not the same as existing awards. If they gave out the 30 point builds after N months of being active, that would be possible, but I still would expect to see numerous gripes about being treated as second class members since they are still not 32 point builds. Turbine still gets grief for the change. Perhaps to award character Longevity they could award a +1 bound tome of choice after the CHARacter has been in play for 12 months or something like that. Perhaps a +2 tome after 24 months and a +3 after 36 months for example. Call it the DIEHARD awards. Mimics some of the reward, lets you turn that longplayed but still not high level toon into something better. With it being bound it has minimal impact on the tome economy as well. (now alt alholics will complain since none of their rotating panel of toons might live long enough to qualify, but then most of those players probably do not need more books...)

[TheGreatEye]

I agree that Vet rewards are a valid method to reward people for helping keep a game alive. Why not make a vet reward for a 2 or 3 year reward. It could be something to this effect:

Option 1: Unlock 32pt build (Valuable to the casual gamer who just does not have the time or energy to get 1750.)
Option 2: Gain an additional character slot (Valuable to power gamers who already have 9 chars, and the 1750 favor.)

You only get one choice.

Leave the reward of unlocking the 32pt build and the +2 tome at 1750 in game.

Problem solved. The casual gammer does not need a 10th char slot and the power gamer does not need to unlock 1750. Both have an acceptable reward for paying money each mont and having diffrent play styles.

I think this sounds reasonable. Leave it in game so that the people that want to attain it faster, can. And give people who attained it in game, another option or options for other rewards at that reward interval.

[KristovK]

Ok, I play permadeath. I do put time into the game, and yet I cant see every making 1750 with any one character. How does offfering it as a veteran reward to long term players affect you? Or is permadeath not a valid playstyle?

Valid playstyle...well...that's actually a totally different subject, but since you bring it up...

Can you show me where, exactly, in the DDO character generator or when I'm levelling up, or hells ANYWHERE in the DDO interface at all, that I have a permadeath option? Or a RP option..or a Casual option? Anywhere? Anyone?

Right...see...the dev's designed the game to be played as it's designed..you make a character, you play it, if you happen to die, you use a res shrine or a res spell or simply release out of the quest, get healed up, and go back to killing/getting killed. There is no permadeath option, no RP option, no Casual option, there is no optional playstyle setting at all.

So, to answer your question, it's not a valid playstyle simply because the game doesn't support it. Feel free to continue playing that way if that's what you enjoy, but since you are imposing self created limits on a game that doesn't support those limits, don't complain about not being able to reap the rewards of playing the game as it's intended to be played when you refuse to play that way.

It's no different from Spill's playstyle, he doesn't take characters beyond 10th level, so why should he enjoy the rewards that come from playing the game as it's intended when he refuses to play it so?

[TheGreatEye]

Consider that a large portion of the rationale for the total favor reward was to encourage players to see all or most of the quests in the game and to move them away from running the same handful of quests over and over and over and then complaining how they were hopelessly bored running those same quests over and over and over and over.

Did a dev actually state this? Please post a link please if so. Back before the level cap was raised, you DID have to run the same quests over and over to attain 1750. Not sure where you are going with this.

[RazorrX]

The favor system is what it is. I understand why some people want the 32pt build without grinding, but I think it is too late to do that, as too many have done the grind to get theirs and it would rob them of that effort. I understand why Drow needed to be unlocked, and I understand why 32pt need to be unlocked (I do think the favor gap between the two is rather . . . large.)

That said, I have yet to unlock 32pt build. My main is almost there now. 16th level and 1680ish favor right now. I should be able to get it by the end of the weekend if I can get on long enough. My guild was laughing when I made the comment a few days ago that I finally got enough House D favor for the returning arrows. Yep, I had been buying 2k of the +3s for a while now, hence the no back pack space issue.

So as someone who has worked a LONG time and is finally about to unlock . . . I feel like I have earned it. I do not want it to be just given away later.

Just my input.

[Zenako]

Did a dev actually state this? Please post a link please if so. Back before the level cap was raised, you DID have to run the same quests over and over to attain 1750. Not sure where you are going with this.

Pretty hard to do since posts of that vintage vanished into the ether some time ago during a forum wipe. And if you mean Normal , Hard and Elite for doing over and over, yah sure, but a lot of people only do that if they are the pathfinders. Once anyone has it on elite most runs tend to be at that setting from then on. The quest rep overkill was for EXP and loot pretty much only. SC and TS to the death....sigh.

[DelScorcho]

I'd suggest a short term change in play styles until you reach your favor goal. I call it Perma-zerg. The rules:

(1) complete each quest in the minimum amount of time, disregarding any optional quest;
(2) Don't disable traps. That is what clerics are for.
(3) Don't kill anything that you don't have to, unless it will follow you and become a general nuissance.
(4) Don't wait to fill out the party. Start running the mission and look to fill the party on the run.
(5) When you die (and you will), don't wait for a rez. Recall, re-house P buff, and reenter.
(6) Guildies are a great source of unpaid level. When they log in, blind invite them even if not level appropriate.

You can get to 1750 within like 2 weeks.

[TheGreatEye]

Valid playstyle...well...that's actually a totally different subject, but since you bring it up...

Can you show me where, exactly, in the DDO character generator or when I'm levelling up, or hells ANYWHERE in the DDO interface at all, that I have a permadeath option? Or a RP option..or a Casual option? Anywhere? Anyone?

Right...see...the dev's designed the game to be played as it's designed..you make a character, you play it, if you happen to die, you use a res shrine or a res spell or simply release out of the quest, get healed up, and go back to killing/getting killed. There is no permadeath option, no RP option, no Casual option, there is no optional playstyle setting at all.

So, to answer your question, it's not a valid playstyle simply because the game doesn't support it. Feel free to continue playing that way if that's what you enjoy, but since you are imposing self created limits on a game that doesn't support those limits, don't complain about not being able to reap the rewards of playing the game as it's intended to be played when you refuse to play that way.

It's no different from Spill's playstyle, he doesn't take characters beyond 10th level, so why should he enjoy the rewards that come from playing the game as it's intended when he refuses to play it so?

Much like PnP, I think that DDO is left open to play how you like. What you stated is clearly your opinion and not that of Turbine. I am sure they dont feel the way you do as they enjoy recieving my money just as much as they enjoy recieving yours.

Please show me anything official from Turbine that the game is only to be played one way.

[TheGreatEye]

The favor system is what it is. I understand why some people want the 32pt build without grinding, but I think it is too late to do that, as too many have done the grind to get theirs and it would rob them of that effort. I understand why Drow needed to be unlocked, and I understand why 32pt need to be unlocked (I do think the favor gap between the two is rather . . . large.)

That said, I have yet to unlock 32pt build. My main is almost there now. 16th level and 1680ish favor right now. I should be able to get it by the end of the weekend if I can get on long enough. My guild was laughing when I made the comment a few days ago that I finally got enough House D favor for the returning arrows. Yep, I had been buying 2k of the +3s for a while now, hence the no back pack space issue.

So as someone who has worked a LONG time and is finally about to unlock . . . I feel like I have earned it. I do not want it to be just given away later.

Just my input.

Well if you do unlock, the proposal would be that you would get to chose another reward for said veteran reward. You would be still ahead of the person that chose the 32 pt build at that reward interval.

[Dracorat]

Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense for the 1750 favor bar to count based on completion of the whole account toward the 32 point builds.

Aaaand... Have a character specific 1750 bar that gets you a +2 tome.

[Nott]

Much like PnP, I think that DDO is left open to play how you like. What you stated is clearly your opinion and not that of Turbine. I am sure they dont feel the way you do as they enjoy recieving my money just as much as they enjoy recieving yours.

Please show me anything official from Turbine that the game is only to be played one way.

I think the point was that there are different views of what is valid. Permadeath is certainly not an invalid way to play, and I'm sure it's more challenging than what the rest of us are playing... however, it's your choice to play that way, not a requirement of the game. The game currently has a requirement to attain 32 point builds; if your personal playstyle makes that difficult or impossible to attain, it's not the fault of the game. Just because someone has a playstyle that doesn't allow them everything the game has to offer does not mean that the game needs to change; it can't accommodate -every- playstyle.

[Stealthbr]

Spill, if you don't like grinding, starting getting used to using your 28pt. builds. If you do feel like working to achieve the 1750 goal, try running new quests as they can also net you a great amount of favor. Running quests on elite also grant you a great amount of favor.

[TheGreatEye]

I think the point was that there are different views of what is valid. Permadeath is certainly not an invalid way to play, and I'm sure it's more challenging than what the rest of us are playing... however, it's your choice to play that way, not a requirement of the game. The game currently has a requirement to attain 32 point builds; if your personal playstyle makes that difficult or impossible to attain, it's not the fault of the game. Just because someone has a playstyle that doesn't allow them everything the game has to offer does not mean that the game needs to change; it can't accommodate -every- playstyle.

Not asking for buttons for every playstyle. What's at issue, for me at least, is rewarding players equitably for time played. The game would not have to be rewritten to do so. There have been a number of suggestions in this thread that seem reasonable for offering rewards to long time subscribers. Not asking to take anything away from the people who earned it in game. In fact I think they should be offered something extra at that reward level. People of alternate playstyles would be happy (increasing the chances they stay subscribed to DDO) and the folks who attained it ingame can still be more ubah than us.

[Brynn]

bad example

WOW = GRIND MILL

You couldn't be more wrong and let me explain.

EQ is a grind. There were no objectives to work towards. No quests. You killed for the sake of killing to level. You had no choice. You sat in the same location killing the exact same spawn over and over again to gain xp. If you were looking for a specific drop...you sat killing the EXACT same mob for DAYS....DAYS! That is a grind. How about crafting. I can't tell you how many 1000s of plat I wasted crafting plat rings, necklaces, bracers and NEVER got a single point! What about when you failed at 225 skill? Not only did you NOT gain a single point, you lost ALL the mats too!! That is a grind.

SWG is a grind. You ran around filling your harvesters with power and credits all night. Then you collected the raw materials. Then you clicked about 700 buttons to build 1 thing to MAYBE gain 1 point. How about the Jedi grind? Are you kidding me? The worst possible grind of all time.

In Warcraft you never have to sit somewhere killing the same thing over and over to advance. You quest your way up. You get gear and xp by finishing quests. There is a "point" to your gathering or killing. There is an objective. A story unfolds. You learn more about the lore, etc. It is a small distinction but a crucial one. You want to talk about grinding, play the above two games and you will understand grinding. What Warcraft does is not even close to grinding.

Now, back to the OP request. He made the point that the 1750 favor is a grind. And it is. Through the course of your adventures, you should be able to easily reach 1750 by doing the quests on normal mode. The fact that you have to go back and re-do the EXACT same quests JUST to get enough favor is what makes this specific achievement a grind. I think his point is that the devs have been touting this as a game that breaks the "grind mold". Nothing more nothing less.

He has a valid request. Almost ALL MMOs on the market today tie something like extra points to term of play as a reward. Rewarding people for grinding is an old model and almost never used in MMOs nowadays. Even old MMOs have changed their vet rewards (or just started a program) to reward long time players...not long time grinders. I think that is all he is asking.

[Dracorat]

Just because the grind has different form doesn't mean WoW isn't a grind.

Go get me those 4 Primal Mights I need for that recipe. Or how about those three Nethers.

Oh, for each piece of gear. What? You're going to do the same content for hours on end over and over to get it?

Yes I can't fail on creating your item, but that's small beans compared to the fact that it's still a grind to get the mats together.

[krud]

more and more this game reflects the WoW mentality of grind. I still rememer the orignial dev promise of "no grind"

Where is the grind? Do all the quests once and you are very close to 1750 favor. It is NOT A GRIND when asked to do each quest once. In fact, that is completely opposite of what a grind is (i.e. endlessly repeating the same thing over and over). You want turbine to change because you delete/reroll/stop playing your characters once they reach 10th level. That's your problem, not turbine's. The favor game is not a grind even for a casual player if they play the game as it's designed.

[KristovK]

Much like PnP, I think that DDO is left open to play how you like. What you stated is clearly your opinion and not that of Turbine. I am sure they dont feel the way you do as they enjoy recieving my money just as much as they enjoy recieving yours.

Please show me anything official from Turbine that the game is only to be played one way.

You are free to think whatever you want, same as you are free to use a playstyle in DDO that doesn't fit the game design. Neither makes you correct however.

DDO doesn't lend itself to permadeath, shrines to restore health/mana and res at, the ability to release from any quest when you die, these are clear indications that the game isn't designed for permadeath, otherwise there'd be options to disable those options while you play, making res shrines and release on death not availible to your character who's chosen those options. Those don't exist though, there is no option to disable those outside of a player's own personal choice to not use them. Therefore the game design clearly doesn't support permadeath, as after 2 years it's still not an option, despite permadeath guilds having been around since the game went live.

As for anything official from Turbine as to how the game is to be played...it's rather self evident how the game is designed to be played. It's a Monty Haul world that promotes powergaming as the defacto standard, and anyone who denies that is either lying to themselves or hasn't actually played beyond the Smuggler's Harbor. Dying is actually less of an issue than it originally was, with the removal of the death xp penalty, which further shows that permadeath is NOT something DDO was designed for.

As for rewards for having played the game X amount of time, well, if you play the game as it was designed to be played, you GET those rewards, high level characters with lots of loot and favor which allows the unlocking of 32 pt builds and a +2 tome of your choice for the character who hit that 1750 Favor. And the best part is, you don't have to play the game for 2 years to attain that, it can be done in less than a month if you so desire. Simply playing the game as it is designed will garner the rewards regardless of how much or how little you play, it's built into the system. Playing in some other fashion than the design of the game, well, those rewards will be difficult if not impossible to attain. That's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with the player and their choices in how they play.