Trap DCs

[ArkoHighStar]

What do you all feel that the elite trap save DCs should be figuring in. Is it assumed that every rogue out there is going to be UMD specced and be carrying around every buff scroll in the game? Or should they be based around what the rogue class feats, enhancements and equipment add up to?

My very first character at launch was(eventually) an Elf wiz9/rog1, I used my spells to get me past most traps and up my saves and checks. These days it seems the traps are figuring everything a pure rogue character has to offer plus every buff in the game ta boot. Is this what elite should be? Or do you all think it should be based off only the things the rogue class has to offer. Would really like to know what you all think on this. I know a rogue with UMD has access to most of the buffs but UMD is a choice not a necessity, keep in mind.

The 9 points from trap sense and improved uncanny dodge are free to every rogue at lvl 15, everything else is build choice, so should elite force you to build a max dex halfing rogue with the lightning reflex feat, no it shouldn't. That 9 points should be the factor that makes elite easier for pure rogues, how much easier after the 9 points is dependant on the build.

As far as damage goes, some build like wizzy/rogues can mitigate damage with spells, while rogues have improved evasion, those builds that can't mitigate damage must rely on others to buff them up. But a fully buffed rogue will always take less damage

[Inkblack]

It's been a long time since I did this without running through the traps, but I'm pretty sure you can disable the boxes in a way that you don't have to run through but 1 or 2 of the blade traps, and never have to disable while standing in one. That's without using the "edge out until you're just barely around the corner but not making saves" trick if you want to do them one side at a time.

Start on the right side, find and disable one box, then switch to the left. Alternate sides while proceeding a bit further each time. If you can't see the box when you search it, it is on the back side of the pillar (like the first one on the right side).

If you do the back and forth method, you can use electricity protection pots to keep the electricity damage to a minimum if you mistime your run through the trap and then fail the save.

Ink

[Turial]

+9 from 15 rogue lvls
+12 from 34 dex
+4 from trap blast goggles
+3 from trap sense feats
+2 head of good fortune
+1 haste
+1 parrying weapon
+4 trap sense enhancements
+4 improved uncanny dodge
+4 GH
+2 Lightning reflexes feat

46 (high point in rogue trap saves I think)

Whats the high point for a multi rogue (depends on classes in the end but generally)?

[samagee]

Kay... so I go into VON 5 on hard (not elite)... just to test out these traps...

My trapsmith is a drow bard/rogue... 12/3... but pretty dedicated to the roguely arts... I started with an 18 Int and I have Disable, Spot, and Search all maxed out (Open Lock nearly maxed), along with Rogue I Spot and Search enhancements, and Drow II Spot and Search enhancements...

So I'm fairly serious about my role as the trapsmith....

My Dex is 24 (+7)
My Reflex saves are +8 from bard, +3 from Rogue = +11
I get +1 Trap Sense from 3rd level of Rogue
I have +3 Resistance Item
I have +4 Greater Heroism
I have +2 Head of Good Fortune
I have +1 from parrying weapon
I have +1 from Haste

Total Reflex save: 30

After several deaths running through the hallway with the lightning traps and the spinning blades, I have narrowed down the DCs... I failed on a 9 and saved on a 12... so figure around a 40 DC for a level 10 quest on hard....

Now, I plan on re-arranging my enhancements after I make 16th level... I'll probably be able to gain two points of Dex... I'll spend an Action Point for Trap Sense I.... I'll scour the Auction House for a +5 resistance item.... and maybe I'll get to the point where I only need a 6 or higher to save... which in that room... probably means death... Failing 1 out of 3 rolls for 80-100 points of damage a shot means I'm worthless as a rogue in that quest... even at 16th level with the best gear possible.

Now for those of you who say, "Well hey!, you're not a pure rogue!"... Let's take a hypothetical 11th level rogue into this room... (Pretty reasonable for a 11th level pure rogue to try VON 5 on hard don't you think?)

30 Dex (28 more likely, but let's be generous) +10
7 Reflex saves from 11 levels of Rogue
+3 Trap Sense from 11 levels of Rogue
+4 Trap Blast Goggles
+4 GH
+1 parrying weapon
+1 Haste
+3 Trap Sense enhancements

Total Reflex save: 33

Again, failing on a 6, maybe a 7 or lower... 80-100 points of damage per missed save.... Yeah, that rogue (who is FOCUSED on being on a trapsmith) won't be of much use in there.... You have to make a dozen saves while disarming those traps... Maybe with a dedicated healer... Maybe using up all of your Improved Uncanny Dodges (11th level rogue gets 3 or 4 of those for 20 seconds each?)

And that 30 Dex is almost required... Forget ever making a strength based rogue who can do traps... Cookie-cutter class suddenly...

I'm usually a big cheerleader for the devs... I believe the traps that you have to run through (or stand in!!) are too hard... please review your DCs...

Roll up a test 11th level Rogue, take him into VON5, and see if you feel like a master of traps... The one time you get to shine in full public view... and you die 2-3 times.... yeah that gives you a good reputation, and makes you feel proud of your character.

You forgetting improv uncanny dodge as well.

[Emili]

You are mistaking disabling a trap with surviving it. Sure a trapsmith can keep his disable device as high as a pure rogue, but as I said previously given equal dex and race, and feat selection they will always be trailing behind a full lvl 15 rogue by 9-12 points, and that should matter, because on normal, both should be doing fine, but as you climb into elite those 9 points should make the difference. On elite a rogue should not have to sacrifice everything to make it though, a M/C splash rogue should, they should have to spend feats to get reflex save bonuses high enough to even come close to a full rogue who has equal dex.

With the exception of what you splash with... obviously a 3 pally rogue in the splash is going to push reflex saves higher yet beyond a pure rogue moving the + to reflex from uncanny to it's standing reflex save.

There are a three things which bother me about this whole ordeal.

1. Forces me to scrutinize who I invite to my elite runs, forcing me to play with less people or to lower the challenge to myself, I in particular always go for an elite run on everything unless it cannot be opened among the group. I like to be able to take anyone wishing to come and not be discriminating.
2. Some quests leave no alternatives to the case... I mean making any particular class an absolute must is a bloody against the spirit of DnD. Again this shares a lot in common with point one.
3. Some people who built splash rogues must reroll - this only frustrates people and some may leave due to the level and loot grinding required to attain current levels.

Now... lastly this is inconsistant. Maybe the dev's should have put in max stat runes too on elite (34 STR, 34 WIS, 36 DEX.... )? I mean maybe on elite the should have made it so melee cannot hit any mob unless they sport +49 to-hit or maybe casters should not land thier spells unless they have the Max DC possible? How many people would complain then? This is totally inconsistant with how the game should be. We should not be required to build beyond a little more over the average in base build on any toon and still have some cabability of getting a successful run - even on elite.

I say this as the other day in dragon ... the pure rogue could not pull down the trap in the north hall - he kept failing. Now really this was only one box he was to get because when you get one then the reast come down easily. People were telling me he sux and to boot him... they were getting frustrated waiting. I ended up using my fighter and my mario skills and resing some people on the right then coming back and shrining to recharge my ring of ancestors and doing the same for the left section. So there you have it trap solved without use of a rogue to do it.... pain in the bum and highly doubt the dev's had this in mind for von 5.

So comming back to this... of the 12 people in the party, how many people do you think will remember that particular rogue and do you think they'll ask him to group again?

[samagee]

Why is Turbine taking the *little* resources it has for DDO, and spending them re-visiting stuff like Trap DCs?

This is a waste of time... move on to new content please.

Because the gimps in the game were multiclassing and not adding real rogues to the party list.

[ArkoHighStar]

With the exception of what you splash with... obviously a 3 pally rogue in the splash is going to push reflex saves higher yet beyond a pure rogue moving the + to reflex from uncanny to it's standing reflex save.

There are a three things which bother me about this whole ordeal.

1. Forces me to scrutinize who I invite to my elite runs, forcing me to play with less people or to lower the challenge to myself, I in particular always go for an elite run on everything unless it cannot be opened among the group. I like to be able to take anyone wishing to come and not be discriminating.
2. Some quests leave no alternatives to the case... I mean making any particular class an absolute must is a bloody against the spirit of DnD. Again this shares a lot in common with point one.
3. Some people who built splash rogues must reroll - this only frustrates people and some may leave due to the level and loot grinding required to attain current levels.

Now... lastly this is inconsistant. Maybe the dev's should have put in ma stat runes too? I mean maybe on elite the should have made it so melee cannot hit any mob unless they sport +49 to-hit or maybe casters should not land thier spells unless they have the Max DC possible? How many people would complain then? This is totally inconsistant with how the game should be. We should not be required to build beyond a little over average in base build on any toon and still have some cabability of getting a successful run.

I say this as the other day in dragon ... the pure rogue could not pull down the trap in the north hall - he kept failing. Now really this was only one box he was to get because when you get one then the reast come down easily. People were telling me to boot him... they were getting frustrated waiting. I ended up raging and buffing, hasting and carrying stones of just enough people to handle the north section down the right section hall using my mario skills and resing them there then coming back and shrining to recharge my ring of ancestors and doing the same for the left section. I do not believe this was some strategy the dev's had in mind for von 5.

but a 3 pally/12 rogue is not a splash rogue it is a rogue with a splash of pally for extra saves.
there is a big difference in a 12bard/3 rogue to a 12 rogue/3 pally and that difference is 9 levels of rogue, and splashing pally does not automatically mean you are going to get huge extra numbers, that build has to include a decent charisma for the charisma bonus to mean something.
I think everyone agrees right now on elite the dc is just too high for anyone and needs to be adjusted

[Emili]

but a 3 pally/12 rogue is not a splash rogue it is a rogue with a splash of pally for extra saves.
there is a big difference in a 12bard/3 rogue to a 12 rogue/3 pally and that difference is 9 levels of rogue, and splashing pally does not automatically mean you are going to get huge extra numbers, that build has to include a decent charisma for the charisma bonus to mean something.
I think everyone agrees right now on elite the dc is just too high for anyone and needs to be adjusted

And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

[ArkoHighStar]

And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

Your pure pally can't disable the trap so it doesn't really matter, and a 11 pally /4 rogue will still fall behind by at least 3 without enhancements and 6 with. Nobody would argue that a non rogue can get very high saves, but the price is much higher for the those precious save points, a mostly pure class rogue will given equal stats and race, beat out a splash rogue by a variable amount(depending on what you are splashing with), the more rogue you add the closer they are, then again the more rogue you add the bigger the splash. The thing is with the exception of the Pally charaisma bonuses and barbarian trap bonuses every other class that you spalsh with rogue has to invest in something to bridge the gao that a rogue gets for free

The simple fact is splashing pally on a rogue is much more effective than splashing rogue on a pally, as the first 3 levels of pally give the best bonuses, whereas the bonuses for rogues increase as you invest in more rogue lvls, culminating in improved evasion being available at lvl 10. People used to say improved evasion was overkill, now it is not. Improved uncanny dodge may be a timed boost but it is a very powerful boost and lasts just long enough for it to matter

[Tallyn]

And... a 11 pally/4 Rogue can reach near same reflex too... I'm pretty sure as my pure pally is a 31.

My 14 Rogue/2 Paladin hits +40 Reflex and I usually dont wear a resistance item. If I am really worried I use a +4 resist ring and pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for a +48 Reflex. Could get it higher, but I dont usually fail them at that point.

[honkuimushi]

I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.

This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.

Just a final note. I was running some of the House J undead quests for favor last night. The levels on Normal were from 9 to 11. The monsters were not that much of a problem, the traps were. Most of the traps in these quests required you to go through the trap to get to the box. The vast majority are mechanical traps, so energy buffs don't work. I was failing on a 41 and taking 150 to 200 damage per hit. Several of these traps hit you twice in less than a second. That wasn't fun, it's just frustrating.

[Emili]

This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.

I was going to mention this as it remindes me of those times also ... I had seen so many people rerolling rogues or completely abandon the class in lue of the headache and grind and roll something different up.

[ArkoHighStar]

I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.

This is beginning to remind me of the time when they jacked up the requirements for Search and Spot. At that time, races that had a racial bonus and enhancements for those skills gained a huge advantage compared to other races. In this case it's Pally splashed and races with Dex bonuses and enhancements. At that time you had some people saying that this was great for rogues and some people saying it was terrible. In my experience it tended to eliminate all but drow and elven rogues, caused a lot of re-rolls of existing rogues, and made people less likely to recruit rogues because it was harder to find a reliable rogue. Rogues can do a lot more than traps, but failing to find a box was a good way to destroy a reputation. And, after seeing a few rogues fail to find boxes in certain quests, the rogues were competing with the benefits of adding another melee class, caster, bard or cleric solely on their combat ability. With this change, I'm beginning to see similar problems. Even the rogue can't be relied on to get to a trap box, so the strategy I'm seeing on elite is to just buff, haste, and run through any trap that requires the rogue to risk getting caught in the trap. With rezzes as necessarry. Also similar is the long wait in the face of several inquiries on the forums(including from some very respected posters) for the devs to make any sort of statement on their intent and where things are going.

Just a final note. I was running some of the House J undead quests for favor last night. The levels on Normal were from 9 to 11. The monsters were not that much of a problem, the traps were. Most of the traps in these quests required you to go through the trap to get to the box. The vast majority are mechanical traps, so energy buffs don't work. I was failing on a 41 and taking 150 to 200 damage per hit. Several of these traps hit you twice in less than a second. That wasn't fun, it's just frustrating.

remember we are not talking about normal, we are talking about elite. It should challenge a well specced rogue, at even 28 the rogue still comes out ahead. I think most agree right now elite is out whack for everyone, the question is if Turbine rolls it back, how much should they roll it back. In my opinion it should be a point at which the well specced rogue properly buffed can get through rolling a 6 or better, then again a full high level rogue will also have improved evasion which would make the failures hurt less.

Multiclass splash rogues should be at a disadvantage on elite and the reason is simple 2 levels of rogue does not buy you any of the bonuses to reflex saves that investing in more rogues levels gives you, when designing the levels of dc's for traps, designers should, and are taking into consideration the bonuses that rogues enjoy, as they are the only class that can disable traps.

On normal a full rogue should be saving almost all the time. On elite we should be considering things like improved uncanny dodge, as it should force a player to bring out his entire arsenal of tricks, including buffs, items etc.

[honkuimushi]

remember we are not talking about normal, we are talking about elite. It should challenge a well specced rogue, at even 28 the rogue still comes out ahead. I think most agree right now elite is out whack for everyone, the question is if Turbine rolls it back, how much should they roll it back. In my opinion it should be a point at which the well specced rogue properly buffed can get through rolling a 6 or better, then again a full high level rogue will also have improved evasion which would make the failures hurt less.

Multiclass splash rogues should be at a disadvantage on elite and the reason is simple 2 levels of rogue does not buy you any of the bonuses to reflex saves that investing in more rogues levels gives you, when designing the levels of dc's for traps, designers should, and are taking into consideration the bonuses that rogues enjoy, as they are the only class that can disable traps.

On normal a full rogue should be saving almost all the time. On elite we should be considering things like improved uncanny dodge, as it should force a player to bring out his entire arsenal of tricks, including buffs, items etc.

I don't have any major issues with this, but I think that we should be including other high reflex characters in this discussion as well. If Bards, Rangers, and eventually Monks, are failing a majority if their trap saves, even on elite, I think we have gone too far. It devalues high reflex saves for a class. And if they're failing, what about all the low reflex save classes. I don't think not having a rogue should guarantee a party wipe, even on Elite. I think that on Normal, even with little or no gear or enhancements, a level appropriate rogue with decent Dex, should fail on a 1. Other high reflex save classes should fail a little more often. On elite, I think it's fair to assume a higher dex, a few enhancements and some moderate gear should be assumed in determining the difficulty and that rogue should save of a 4 or so. Someone who really maxes out reflex saves should pretty much fail on a 1. But I don't think trap difficulties should be an automatic fail for everyone but a rogue though.

One of the problems when trying to fine tune the game based on DCs, is that they are a lot of ways to meet a challenge. It's really a very imprecise tool. A lot of the classes favored for splash rogue bulids also get high reflex saves, namely Rangers and Bards. If you try to make life hard for them, you really make life hard for everyone because there really isn't that much difference in their capabilities. Paladins with rogue splashes chan also hit the needed saves, but they have other problems concerning MAD and skill points. The Splash that would be impacted the most by increased trap DCs is the Wizard/ Rogue. A lot of these characters stick with 1 level of rogue to avoid losing caster levels. The low reflex save progression of the Wizard, along with a tendency to dump dex on some characters and the lack of evasion on the rogue 1 builds, would make even a slight increase in DC's an issue. Yes, they do get some buffs like resists, False Life and Nightshield, but it could be difficult to adjust and they are less effective against mechanical traps. But I don't really want to see them have to re-roll. If they decide to keep boosted DCs, we may have to find a way to include Arcane Trickster. The actual PrC requires 3 levels of rogue(without other PrCs being available) and the addition of a high Reflex save progression could keep these characters viable as a trapsmith in elite, at the cost of caster levels.

I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better. But most of all, I wish the devs were talking to us about this a little more. As people mentioned in the old threads on AC an attack bonuses, you only have a spread of 20 before it becomes nearly automatic failure vs. nearly automatic success. At level 20, the difference between good saves and poor saves is 6, a 12 vs. a 6. We need to be careful how wide we make the gap when equipment and abilities are added.

[Issip]

I have 2 rogues, both multiclass mutts. The highest level of rogue I have for either of them is 5. Neither have any issues disabling any trap in the game with the exception of the third trap for the bonus chest in Raibow in the Dark on Elite. I may take more damage from traps, I may fail saves and die, but I figure if I'm disabling traps with my rogue there is usually a cleric around who can res me, but this has not been a problem for me. Sounds like Von5 Elite might kill my rogue as I clear the North hall if I don't pay attention to where I'm going and just expect to make all my saves. I'm playing the worlds smallest violin for myself as I type this - who cares? I intended my rogues to be capable of opening any lock or disarming any trap and they are, and with a woppin 3-5 levels of rogue mixed into their fighter/ranger levels.

I am glad they made the traps more painful and see no legitimate issue with the changes.

[kruggar]

was so sad other day i entered von on elite with my wizard 14/rogue 2..

was blasted by the traps in a second.

i have +31 reflex save wich i thinked was enought for those elite traps (BIG mistake)

now im back to same point i was before the update, why give the int to reflex feat if u cant use it on a multiclass wizard/rogue.

ok a rogue with huge int can use it, but i think its kinda useless for me for now..

[Pellegro]

Can someone please post teh DC to save on the trap on elite?

And then the expected save of a level appropriate rogue (which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up)?

Then we can finally have an intelligent discussion.

If a completely maxxed out trapsmith only fails on a level appropriate elite trap on a 1-4 or so, then I think its fine, as a more typical build would fail on a 1-10 or so.

Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.

If you fail, you just take your rez and run through. Next time, hopefully you'll figure out a more intelligent way to get past the trap rather than just running through it.

Thats just my opinion. I'd also be fine if a "typical" rogue, on elite, at level appropriate, only failed on like a 1-5 or so. What I think would be poor design is for traps to be ignorable by rogues, de facto, which would mean that non-rogues would be looking at better than 50/50 survival rates or so on elite. That to me is why traps are generally ignored now.

On elite, traps have to be dealt with, and that means figuring out how to dismantle them without triggering them. That's part of their challenge. ....

[Angelus_dead]

Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.

It surely would NOT mean that.

Normally traps will force you to roll saving throws 2-3 times to make it past one trap. The rogue doesn't have a 50% chance... he's got a 12.5%

[llevenbaxx]

now im back to same point i was before the update, why give the int to reflex feat if u cant use it on a multiclass wizard/rogue.

..

Lol yeah that was a kind of a shot for me too. Why the hell bother putting the feat in if you are going to make it nearly useless in the very same update? While I notice I save alot more from spells from enemy casters, thats not a good enough reason for me to bother using a valuable feat slot, I dont get caught in many AOE spells.

I do wish the Devs would pipe up about this also, at least that way I could delete my wiz/rog and start another character. Give us more slots too.

[Aladon]

I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better.

The reality that plagues Turbine's repeated attempts to guide play in certain directions is that players have freedom in the game. If Turbine makes something too hard, the players will find a different, aberrant, but easier path. Stealthy Repo is a pain in the butt so lots of us just run it on elite for favor at high levels. The difficulty of The Dragon raid led to the pull and /death strategy. The lack of damage from traps as compared to the time delay of finding and disabling them led to widespread zerging.

I would submit that the 'correct' level of DC's/damage from traps is not some theoretical 'right' level of challenge. It's the level at which the ease of solving the problem in a non-aberrant way exceeds the ease of aberrating by enough margin to make it the preferred solution for most parties. If it is faster and cheaper to recruit a reasonably competent, level appropriate, trap-capable toon and give him or her the time to get the trap down, that is the right difficulty. Clearly that is not the case now.

Damage on disableable traps is more or less ok now.

Damage on non-disableable traps is much too high now.

DC's on traps are much too high.

I submit to you, Turbine, that anytime players are resorting to aberrant, perverse methodologies, there is something wrong with the balance of the game (not the players, as it sometimes seems you believe). Likewise, it seems to me that the various threads on this subject have been extraordinarily thoughtful and polite. It would be a positive sign of respect from you to respond in some fashion to the thoughts, comments and concerns expressed by your community.

Best,

Aladon