Trap DCs

[Hvymetal]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?

I'll admit that not every PnP party needs a 'Rogue', but then again the party may not even run into any traps depending on the campaign setting.

DDO follows PnP somewhat closely, and a Rogue is a mainstay of the party. I don't agree with the DC saves being risen to what they are, but a Fighter or Wizard with one or two levels of rogue should not be as good at every trap as a pure. There needs to be some incentive to stay pure, and this is what many classes are lacking.

Staying pure yes, but having to devote a great portion of your resources in feats and AP's (not to mention search) if you plan to run elite content is not the way to do it in my opinion, pigeon holing Rogues into being pure trap-monkies is bad for the class as I see it.

[ViVid7th]

Staying pure yes, but having to devote a great portion of your resources in feats and AP's (not to mention search) if you plan to run elite content is not the way to do it in my opinion, pigeon holing Rogues into being pure trap-monkies is bad for the class as I see it.

Agreed, but currently there is little else for the class as a whole. Many of the social skills don't have the same impact as in PnP and many of the useful skills are missing from the skill list. Going for a 20 int on a rogue is a waste currently, because there isn't that many useful skills.

+skill items and tools lower the blow, Skill boosts help allot, but a rogue should be the class sought to deal with traps AS WELL as hold their own.

[Angelus_dead]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?

Absolutely positively not.

Not only are there other classes who can find and disable traps (including some CLERICs for crying out loud), D&D traps also can generally be "disabled" by Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, or (temporarily) Dispel Magic. Even a +1 Adamantine Returning Throwing Axe will work.

[ViVid7th]

Absolutely positively not.

Not only are there other classes who can find and disable traps (including some CLERICs for crying out loud), D&D traps also can generally be "disabled" by Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, or (temporarily) Dispel Magic. Even a +1 Adamantine Returning Throwing Axe will work.

Trapfinding

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Find Traps
Divination
Level: Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level

You gain intuitive insight into the workings of traps. You can use the Search skill to detect traps just as a rogue can. In addition, you gain an insight bonus equal to one-half your caster level (maximum +10) on Search checks made to find traps while the spell is in effect.

Note that find traps grants no ability to disable the traps that you may find.

I'm sorry, I guess that I read that wrong. I also guess that the rogue isn't the only class that gets Disable Device as a class skill. Using something to trigger the trap only works if it is a one shot trap, or if you have some way and the materials to block that trap.

Preparing with spells such as protection from energy works against some magical traps (like a fireball trap), but using Dispell Magic and Greater Dispell Magic normally has less than a 50% chance at success, due to it going off of the caster level of the creator. Even then, if you have more than one target to hit with Dispell, it won't work (Only lasts 1d4 rounds, only targeted). These tactics will rarely work against those found in a dragon's lair, or other strong casters with nothing but time on their hands (Elves, Liches, etc.).

Some traps can be dodged or disabled by other classes in a proper setting and with preparations, but these are either a resource drain, have limited uses, are only able to be applied in certain situations, or assume the trap won't reset itself once triggered. Not every trap is triggered by a pressure plate or trip wire. And unless you find it you won't be able to prepare for it. I still don't see an alternative to a rogue in the long run for PnP.

[Aladon]

I do not think anyone here is really getting my points at all...

A trap in DnD is nothing more than an obstacle. It's the same as any mob. In PnP we do not require any one class for a party and their are more ways to deal with a trap then having someone scoot their bum over there and toy with a little box. I mean seriously I can build a barb/rogue too and get improved uncanny dodge as you've stataed (PnP DnD wise)... but what you're all failing to see is you're trying to make some arguement for justifying uncanny dodge and improved evasion to the point of where it's a near requirement in some quests. You seem to want a poper challenge for the pure rogue who's spec'd to deal with this yet eliminate most the others... with that said the axe should swing both ways. Lets give the melee and casters a proper challenge in here too. Maybe they should have never changed the switches and runes at the doors? Maybe they should have put them as a 30 str 30 int instead of the 25 str 20 wis they have now?

I suppose if you feel this need to stress such importance on elite for these obstacles I should turn arround and "right-tune" the dungeon. By adjusting these trap obstacles to what they are now. It's my viewpoint they should do the same with the rest of the obstacles to make the dugeon truely balanced...

As such they should adjust the trash mob AC, HP and Saves in elite Von 5 to match. Bring the mob up to where you need a full BaB 11 plus full (str/dex mod +10) plus feat and buff to even hit the Mob so an ac minimum 40 on all mob. Increase the mob's hp by 10 swings worth of so - +800hp. That attunes the dungeon to proper balance mob for real melee challenge now... mob and traps are equal now and is just the start. Let us look into mob saves to make heighten and spell focus's challenges next, Let us strive to making every class ability and every feat a near requirement. We're just getting started to make a propperly balanced dungeon for elite content. Let's take every single quest and guarentee that on elite every full blown class is required and is challenged in it on elite. Every party will require a melee, caster, cleric, rogue, ranger and bard(to fill in some gaps) and the standard on elite should be within +5 from max capability (plus buffs) of any toon in thier respectable area of expertise.

Thank You.

QFT

This is about as good an argument as we'll ever get for why Turbine's current trap tweak is messed up.

And this argument even grants that a maxed rogue can handle these traps at quest level, which is far from clear.

Likewise, it ignores non-disableable traps.

Finally, there is always a small minority for whom DO isn't fun unless it's incredibly painful. For the vast majority of us, it doesn't work like that. So even if you guys are theoretically right (which you aren't), this does nothing but hurt the game in the long run.

Best,

Aladon

[Emili]

As I said before, an unbuffed, well specced, level appropiate rogue, or above average rogue with full buffs should be able to handle the hardest elite trap with some room to spare. An average rogue with a little AP or feat investment or partially buffed should expect some chance at failing a save on the hardest level appropriate elite trap. Trap DCs should be set accordingly. I haven't been in the harbor to test the new DCs. If someone would post them, rather than saying "my sorc can no longer run thru these traps" we could determine if they are really too high.

added - at low levels everyone with a decent dex should have reflex saves that aren't very different. It isn't until the higher level rogue base save, trap sense feats, uncanny dodge, and (usually) increased dex kick in do we see them outstretch others (like melee classes do when it comes to melee). The main point in this thread is how much more on top of that does a rogue need to be in order to guarantee success on the hardest elite traps?

from another thread...

The save on the goodblades elite blade trap is 30. The save on the Gwylan's fire trap on HARD is 36. The high level elite saves are apparently mid to high 40s.

Your guy doesn't cut it. Put in some pally, be a halfling with the ref save enhancements. Then we can talk. Maybe.

and while I've not verified goodblades personally, I also know that Garrison's has least one 34... so lets's step back a second, since you wish to create a challenge for the rogue via Reflex DC, maybe we should also challenge thier DD and Open locks too? Should we require these rogues to not only make the reflex but also buff to a 72 disable device to prove how important it is to have a pure rogue for elite high level quests? Maybe DD of 43 for Garisons to go along with the DC34 reflex for that trap too?

I am not attepting to be condescending here just rational about the situation as a whole... DnD does not require any class nor does it stress such weight on the stats so much so to be unreasonable across classes. DDO is on the verge of doing so. The rational that well you must take a pure rogue in any particular quest just because it's elite is just plain silly. If you read one of my earlier posts in this thread you'd find I waited for a pure 9th level rogue to take down the traps in the von 5 north hall. He died repeatedly... not sure if it was his build or was just a unlucky stream of 1's but after 15-20 minutes of my time - even after showing him the safe spot to disable the 1st box - you get that one then the rest come easy - the party was frustrated with him, I was beginning to get frustrated with him- He cost me time and the party's time as people had to leave. SOOOO, I took things into my own hands... the party litterally wanted me to ask him to leave or bott him. I buffed up and ran across the traps (twitching) and res'd just enough people on the other side to get the quest moving again. If you really intend rogues to have to go thru a screening process for groups so let it be. Just do not come crying when someone eventually coments - there are no traps in this quest so your rogue stays out of this one on elite because they'd be better served by some other class than a high reflex rogue since you've no obstacle to contend with in some other quest <- the shoe on the other foot.

I had to listen to a friend whine last night also. She was running STK elite... lvl's 5-7. Party completely buffed. Albeit a 6th level rogue could not run accross the fires to disable the traps... the barb in group did. Then he even managed to kill the mino, come back raged and managed to retieve the rogue's stone. The rogue res'd at the shrine... went back to take down the boxes and "KABOOM!" he blew it up on a roll of 1... thus the entire party was stuck, because they could not get the other four members thru safely... I told her if the barb had an adamantine or transmutting weapon to fight the boss and the rogue could help in way of wand whipping they might be able to finish it. The group though gave up and disbanded as some peolpe had real life to contend with. Utterly a complete waste of thier time.

[Angelus_dead]

I still don't see an alternative to a rogue in the long run for PnP.

Yes, you don't see it. That's because you're ignorant about what the possibilities of PnP D&D are.

[Emili]

Yes, you don't see it. That's because you're ignorant about what the possibilities of PnP D&D are.

A for instance is to spring the trap via a 10' pole or rope... then figure out an alternative way across via wits... ie. one person can carry a rope across clinging to an ledge on the west side of the hall (while making balance checks) above the pit of acid once accross tie it off and toss the other end back to the rest of the party, or use a nearby table or rusty grate across jamming the swinging spikes. What really surprises me is that people do not realize PnP goes beyond the scope of what DDO does... your party has skills but the largest skills in PnP are imagination and wit.

[krud]

Let's see what is acheivable for 28pt lvl10 rogues (with good gear and no raid loot or tomes):

The gimp-me-to-the-max so I can only do traps build.
Max possible dex = 27 dex (28 human, 31 for elf/half/drow) -> 18 base (20 for elf/half/drow), 2 dex raises, 3 dex enhancement (4 human, 5 elf/half/drow), +4 item
14,12,10 (or 12,12,12) in three other base 8 stats.
lightning reflex feat
all AP invested in dex enhancements, trapfinding skills, way of the mechanic, trap sense, etc.
max ranks in spot,search, dd, ol

31 reflex save = +7 base, +8 dex, +2 lightning reflex feat, +3 trap sense feat (automatic), +3 Improved trap sense III, +4 uncanny dodge, +4 item.
35 human, +3 HV boost, +1 dex
34 halfling, +1 luck bonus, +2 dex
33 elf/drow, +2 dex

Average rogue build.
average dex = 24 dex (28 for elf/half/drow) -> 16 base (18 for elf/half/drow), 2 dex raises, 2 dex enhancement (4 elf/half/drow), +4 item.
14 in three other base 8 stats.
6 AP in dex enhancements (12 elf/half/drow)
16 out of 40 AP invested in trap related skills, trap senseII, skill boosts.
max ranks in spot,search, dd, ol

27 reflex save = +7 base, +7 dex, +3 trap sense feat (automatic), +2 Improved trap sense II, +4 uncanny dodge, +4 item.
30 human, +3 HV boost
30 halfling, +1 luck bonus, +2 dex
29 elf/drow, +2 dex

You gain 4 or 5 on your reflex save by gimping your rogue to the max. All that can be made up with GH and haste, while still leaving ~half of your AP for combat enhancements, and all available feats for something else. So, for an average, level 10 rogue a 29 unbuffed reflex save is the median for all races. With only 2 buffs its already a 34. Maybe you can get a few more points if pally is close by or you got a bard in group, but i won't count those.

From this I would venture that the hardest trap in a level 10 quest on elite should have at most a DC 40, with the run of the mill traps more than a few points lower. Hard and normal should drop by a few points each. How high do you think DCs should be given the above numbers?

[wiglin]

This is my opinion, poeple need to stop looking at symbols by the person name and start looking at what the character does all together. Forcing someone to build a character a certain way to accomplish elite setttings is not in the spirit of dnd. 3.5 allows multiclassing is is part of the rules. Turbine needs to get rid of the symbols and replace them with jobs. (Healer, DPS, Tank. Trapsmith....etc) I do not care what your symbol is and making the game so that you have to create a gimped character to complete a quest on elite is not good business.

At this point I say no to inviting a rogue and if the quest is elite with a crazy trap I will run a different quest. I do not want some rogue that is able to disable elite traps and yet pike the rest of the quest taking up a spot. It was bad enough that they start putting in DC's that not every race can even get, but making the dc to save against a trap is horrible game mechanics. This will only hurt pure rogue builds, because now you will have poeple building these disable everything on elite and then get frustrated and quit the game after no one wants a gimped character in their party.

I like the idea of making traps very deadly, make it so you will take tons of damage and die if it is not disarmed, but allow those that want to be able to disarm the trap do so without gimping themselves for the other 90&#37; of the game. The save for trap DC's on elite needs to be obtainable without focusing every possible feat, stat, enhancement into reflex save.

I just returned to the game after being gone for 90+ days. I am glad I do not play rogues or I think I would just quit again...lol

[honkuimushi]

I'm sorry, I guess that I read that wrong. I also guess that the rogue isn't the only class that gets Disable Device as a class skill. Using something to trigger the trap only works if it is a one shot trap, or if you have some way and the materials to block that trap.

A lot of this was changes with splat books. The Artificer from the ECS also gets Trapfinding and DD as do the Scout from Complete Adventurer and the Beguiler from the PHB II. I think some PrCs do as well.

A note on DCs-- I did The Enemy Within on elite a few days ago. It's a level 11 quest on normal. There are several double blade traps with the box in between. It may be possible to time them, but living in Japan, it would be impossible for me and difficult for anyone else, I think. I failed on a 41 and took about 160 damage. I don't remember the DC on the spinners in the floor, but I had a 30 Reflex save and I failed 2 saves in a about a second and took 150 and 190 damage from the blades. I believe you have to stand in those blades to get the box, but you might be able to get them from the top. We just tried to avoid them. I reccomend
checking out that quest and the Keeper's Sanctuary to check the DCs. Both have a lot of blade traps you have to pass through to disable in order to finish the quest. If rogues can't get these dow reliably or people can't run through them and survive, I can't see anyone doing them.

[Angelus_dead]

I reccomend
checking out that quest and the Keeper's Sanctuary to check the DCs. Both have a lot of blade traps you have to pass through to disable in order to finish the quest. If rogues can't get these dow reliably or people can't run through them and survive, I can't see anyone doing them.

Oh, people can do them. But simply, reflex saves won't contribute to completing the quest. They'll assume the traps do 100% damage nearly every time they trigger on you, and simply add that into the healing budget.

[Vormaerin]

yup. Full or nearly full rogues can still do these quests if they put some thought into their reflex saves, just like they do with DD and Search. You can get WAY more than enough reflex save if you go hog wild on the subject.

Its things like this that explain why rogues get Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion. The Elite traps at the high end are not really the problem. Its more the values of the low to middle level quests, where rogues really haven't gotten to the Improved Evasion and several levels of Trap Sense, etc...

[llevenbaxx]

and so would the 24 dex ranger because they are equal in the end given the feat bonuses the rogue has, but a 24 base dex rogue will happily make most of his saves and collect their stones

edit: Right now I think everyone agrees the dc's are out of whack for everyone and Turbine shoud lower them, the question is should they be lowered to where the rogue 5 point advantage doesn't mean anything or should they be just hig enough that a full rogue has little trouble but a mc rogue or someone with just high dex is going to have some issues. I am for the second option.

I like the idea of class feats being figured into the trap DCs. I dont see any reason that +5 wouldnt be figured into elite trap DCs. Should they also figure the rogue is carrying greater hero, recitation and every other applicable buff scroll in the game on his character? The game used to seem to allow for example my wiz12/rog3 to buff up with greater hero, stonskin, jump etc to get by/over/around a trap. This is always what D&D3.5 was to me, using your character make-up to find different ways around challenges. Not, "sorry, no imp evaision or ref save +50, no trap smith". I dont think we are to this point quite yet but it does certainly seem we are heading there. That aint a D&D game, thats simply taking out the creativity of character building.

IMO the saves for the traps should be figured around the base class, not the base class plus every possible buff in the game. I guess with that, I do feel a pure rogue should be able to tap dance through traps if he is moderately specced to do so and on his own power at that. They will be doing them w/o any buffs from my casters to be sure.

Really jus bumping in hopes that a dev might take not and give some insight as to the direction this whole thing is going to continue so I know if I can free up some slots in the end.

[krud]

IMO the saves for the traps should be figured around the base class, not the base class plus every possible buff in the game. I guess with that, I do feel a pure rogue should be able to tap dance through traps if he is moderately specced to do so and on his own power at that. They will be doing them w/o any buffs from my casters to be sure.

How many times do elite parties go into a big fight without the relevant buffs? Not very often, and when they do it usually is trouble. The same thinking should be applied here. A pure rogue with average stats and moderate trap specs should expect at least some chance for failure, 20&#37; or less. With a little buffage factored in (such as GH) he should be ok, fully buffed and he's got room to spare. A splash-rogue will need full buffage to have a chance at "dancing thru the traps". I would add that this should be the standard for only the most difficult traps, not every trap.

The problem here is the ever widening gap between pure and splash as we get closer to lvl20. The same thing happens with splash melee/caster types vs pure melee, except the disparity between those two is often observed at the mid levels. People know what's ahead for the MC melee/caster already and can make build decisions accordingly. At level 20 and the gap between pure and MC rogue is gonna get even wider. Splash rogues are gonna need even more buffage to do well. Think about it, that one or two levels of rogue is not going to get you a much better reflex save than any other class out there. Unless you invested in dex, or reflex save boosting feats, you're going to be only slightly better than a pure wizard or fighter. If you want to balance around that, then the rogue feats and enhancements become pointless.

[ORCRiST]

Yes, please change this Devs. The majority of my characters are rogues, including my main. Rogues are almost all I play, and know how to build them.

I'm am all for making the traps more deadly on hard and elite, as they should, but its no reason to mess with the save DC's.

Last night a guildy and I ran "The Scoundrel's Run" in 3-Barrel Cove. On normal, its a level 7 adventure - we did it on Elite, so 9th. I'm a 10.3 level rogue (w/ two levels of ranger) and my guildy was on his 11th level pure ranger. We both have reflex saves on the south side of 25.

There are two LONG tunnels covered with un-disarmable fire traps. These traps and corridors HAVE to be negotiated to finish the quest. On one of the two corridors (the first one you must cross), there are about 12+ flame traps in a row. Any roll on the dice less than 10 meant 80+ points of damage, multiple hits in less than a second, and thats WITH a fire resistance of 22. Needless to say, we died not even half way through the corridor and decided to do something else.

I would like to know if you people just arbitrarily make changes on a whim, without the slightest concern or study on how sweeping changes like this effect your player base?

I think its safe to say the Devs 'hate' the rogue class, as there's quite alot of evidence to support the claim:

First there was the Human Versatility nerf, coupled with the "Lets just CRANK UP the Search, Spot, and Disable DC's!" idea, followed by some small amount of sanity so now JUST Search and Spot will be cranked. Oh, BTW, your elemental weapons won't apply their sneak attack damage correctly, and now (surprise!) you get three new feats with the new mod! Oh, er, sorry... only ONE of those actually works atm. Hey, we fixed them again, heres a free feat respec token, oh... OUR BAD... the feats STILL dont work...

Anyone at Turbine with a clue?

Anyone?

Bueller?

[llevenbaxx]

The problem here is the ever widening gap between pure and splash as we get closer to lvl20. The same thing happens with splash melee/caster types vs pure melee, except the disparity between those two is often observed at the mid levels. People know what's ahead for the MC melee/caster already and can make build decisions accordingly. At level 20 and the gap between pure and MC rogue is gonna get even wider. Splash rogues are gonna need even more buffage to do well. Think about it, that one or two levels of rogue is not going to get you a much better reflex save than any other class out there. Unless you invested in dex, or reflex save boosting feats, you're going to be only slightly better than a pure wizard or fighter. If you want to balance around that, then the rogue feats and enhancements become pointless.

Thats kinda what I was trying to get at. They create this enhancement system that is, at least, starting to numerically eliminate certain builds from achieveing goals. I guess that is my problem with the enhancement system when it comes down to it. I hear "enhancement" and think oh a nice modifier if im a little light in a particular area. Now they are getting to a point where they are big enough unrecoverable loses, that (for ex.) a caster rogue cant use his spells to to make up the ground becase they are already figured in there. Where are my MC enhancements that help me span that difference the enhancement system creates? I know my buffs arent going to cut it anymore. If it was a simple matter of overcoming +5 to trap save DCs and not having imp evaision that would be no problem. The enhancement system makes it so much more though, as outlined in various posts in this thread.

...and in the WDA: Rogue trap sense enhancement will provide a +2 instead of the current +1 it gives to trap saves. Way to drive your enhancement created gap further for trapsmithing....Everyone reroll pureclass, save yourself the time and aggrivation. Direction now clear. Elite trapsmith = pure rogue, all other variations WILL be numerically eliminate via our crappy enhancement system.

[krud]

Thats kinda what I was trying to get at. They create this enhancement system that is, at least, starting to numerically eliminate certain builds from achieveing goals. I guess that is my problem with the enhancement system when it comes down to it. I hear "enhancement" and think oh a nice modifier if im a little light in a particular area. Now they are getting to a point where they are big enough unrecoverable loses, that (for ex.) a caster rogue cant use his spells to to make up the ground becase they are already figured in there. Where are my MC enhancements that help me span that difference the enhancement system creates? I know my buffs arent going to cut it anymore. If it was a simple matter of overcoming +5 to trap save DCs and not having imp evaision that would be no problem. The enhancement system makes it so much more though, as outlined in various posts in this thread.

...and in the WDA: Rogue trap sense enhancement will provide a +2 instead of the current +1 it gives to trap saves. Way to drive your enhancement created gap further for trapsmithing....Everyone reroll pureclass, save yourself the time and aggrivation. Direction now clear. Elite trapsmith = pure rogue, all other variations WILL be numerically eliminate via our crappy enhancement system.

It's not the enhancement system that is driving it, it's the automatic feats and base save scores that provide much of the difference. Trap sense enhancements are +4 for 10AP, which is a big investment, too much to expect for the average rogue. Most rogue builds, however, should be able to afford a modest investment of 3AP to get +2. The dex enhacements will only add another +1 to the reflex save (+2 if you have a dex race). Now look at the automatic feats. The trap sense feat adds +1 at levels 3,6,9,12 and 15. Improved uncanny dodge adds another +4 at lvl4 and +6 at lvl8. Also, a rogue will usually (not always) add to dex with their attribute raises, another +2. On top of all that, the base save for a level 10 rogue is +7 vs +3 for everyone else, except a ranger and a bard. It is inevitable that a pure rogue will generate higher save bonuses in traps, even without enhancements. I'm not up on the latest PnP stuff, but do pure rogues also get these same feats in PnP?
edit - i did not see the WDA trap sense post. If true, i don't think it is the way to go. All the splash rogues will demand a full respec.

Here are more mumbers to consider:
As shown previously, an average 28pt level 10 pure rogue gets a +29 reflex save when using UD. Minimally self buffed with a haste pot, heroism pot, and a parrying item it's +33. In a level 10 elite raid group you should be able to find a mage to cast GH and a cleric with recitation for another +4, total +37. A well-specced, fully buffed rogue can hit +40. Based on these values the trap DC should be anywhere from 35-40, depending on how hard or easy you think traps need to be. However, even if you adjust accordingly, the difference between a pure rogue and a splash MC is only going to get worse, and by level 20 we will end up with the same discussion all over again.
edit - i just got Imp uncanny dodge on my MCrogue, and though it says +4 reflex save in the description, the actual bonus is +6 (same as AC bonus). this adds another 2 to all the above totals.
As the splash melee/casters found out around level 7 or 8, the one level of fighter isn't going to cut it on elite unless they started investing feats and enhancements in melee. Same is happening here with the splash rogues. Full rogues with reasonable stats and buffed up, have a legitimate complaint if they still consistently fail trap saves.

[llevenbaxx]

It's not the enhancement system that is driving it, it's the automatic feats and base save scores that provide much of the difference. Trap sense enhancements are +4 for 10AP, which is a big investment, too much to expect for the average rogue. Most rogue builds, however, should be able to afford a modest investment of 3AP to get +2. The dex enhacements will only add another +1 to the reflex save (+2 if you have a dex race). Now look at the automatic feats. The trap sense feat adds +1 at levels 3,6,9,12 and 15. Improved uncanny dodge adds another +4 at lvl4 and +6 at lvl8. Also, a rogue will usually (not always) add to dex with their attribute raises, another +2. On top of all that, the base save for a level 10 rogue is +7 vs +3 for everyone else, except a ranger and a bard. It is inevitable that a pure rogue will generate higher save bonuses in traps, even without enhancements. I'm not up on the latest PnP stuff, but do pure rogues also get these same feats in PnP?
edit - i did not see the WDA trap sense post. If true, i don't think it is the way to go. All the splash rogues will demand a full respec.

Here are more mumbers to consider:
As shown previously, an average 28pt level 10 pure rogue gets a +29 reflex save when using UD. Minimally self buffed with a haste pot, heroism pot, and a parrying item it's +33. In a level 10 elite raid group you should be able to find a mage to cast GH and a cleric with recitation for another +4, total +37. A well-specced, fully buffed rogue can hit +40. Based on these values the trap DC should be anywhere from 35-40, depending on how hard or easy you think traps need to be. However, even if you adjust accordingly, the difference between a pure rogue and a splash MC is only going to get worse, and by level 20 we will end up with the same discussion all over again.
edit - i just got Imp uncanny dodge on my MCrogue, and though it says +4 reflex save in the description, the actual bonus is +6 (same as AC bonus). this adds another 2 to all the above totals.
As the splash melee/casters found out around level 7 or 8, the one level of fighter isn't going to cut it on elite unless they started investing feats and enhancements in melee. Same is happening here with the splash rogues. Full rogues with reasonable stats and buffed up, have a legitimate complaint if they still consistently fail trap saves.

All the buffs I too can cast myself, from spell list or UMD. I will be getting UD next level and only the AC bonus improves in Imp UD, so I will have all of that. I will have four levels of rogue so I will get at least +3 of that +7 base save. My int is 34 which is comparable to most rogues. That leaves trapsense which is why I believe they picked that particular class feat to double in enhancements "system". Thats it, trapsense. We'll take that +5 and jack it up to say.. hmmm +13 sounds good. On a D20, thats big business, any way you want to slice it.. 5 not so much a death sentence.

[krud]

All the buffs I too can cast myself, from spell list or UMD. I will be getting UD next level and only the AC bonus improves in Imp UD, so I will have all of that. I will have four levels of rogue so I will get at least +3 of that +7 base save. My int is 34 which is comparable to most rogues. That leaves trapsense which is why I believe they picked that particular class feat to double in enhancements "system". Thats it, trapsense. We'll take that +5 and jack it up to say.. hmmm +13 sounds good. On a D20, thats big business, any way you want to slice it.. 5 not so much a death sentence.

You are taking the reasonable approach to the problem of an MC rogue, same as I did with mine. In order to do-it-all it WILL require some kind of feat or other investment (more rogue levels) to function in high level elite content. Some splash rogues do not see it that way. They want it all, yet even without enhancements in game it will not be possible for them by level 20 (unless they bring DCs ridiculously way down).

I just did the dragon elite with my MCrogue (when he was 8ftr/7rog) and the big electric/spinning trap was bugged (in a favorable way), so I didn't get to see how bad it is. The one shot traps were not too much of a problem (except the one I didn't prepare for), and my reflex save is slightly less than average compared to a lvl10 rogue. If the main trap was working properly i'd probably have been toast if the elite DC is really 45 as many say it is. I showed approximately twenty saving throws in my combat log (granted I bacame less carefull when i saw it was bugged). Immediately went out and got Improved trap sense II and respeced a skill focus into lightning reflexes. Fully buffed, with a pally close by, I may be able to survive now, but just barely. I can't complain since I focused on combat traits first, traps second. I don't think they should lower DCs to accomodate my build. From the numbers I crunched for a pure rogue I think the DC for this trap on elite is not way out of wack. Perhaps a few points too high, considering you make up to a dozen or more saves while working on it, 40e-35h-30n is not unreasonable if they do decide to lower it.

btw - Imp uncanny dodge does give a +6 reflex bonus in my stat window whenever i activate it (same as the AC bonus). Either the description is off, or the sta window is reporting it wrong.