Trap DCs

[ArkoHighStar]

I am not talking about trap sense. I am talking about lightning reflexes and some of the "NOT" free feats.

if a mc rogue wants to get closer to the saves achievable by full rogues then yes they should have to use up some feats, full rogues with a fairly high dex should not have to as the trap sense feats should put them over the top into the realm of saving a majority of the time, however a rogue who maxes out dex and trap sense enhancements and on top of that takes lightning reflexes should save on anything but a 1-3 when sporting gh and improved uncanny dodge

[Angelus_dead]

however a rogue who maxes out dex and trap sense enhancements and on top of that takes lightning reflexes should save on anything but a 1-3 when sporting gh and improved uncanny dodge

No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.

[krud]

No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.

or in other words, "an MC splash rogue should be able to save as much as a real rogue."

How many elite quests do you go into unbuffed? They become real challenges when buffs get removed, even for melee. Needing buffs to have a 90+% chance of success at certain elite traps is not extreme by any measure. Would you expect any caster who MC 2 or more levels in a melee class to be able to PK elite mobs as well as a full caster, or swing a sword as well as the 14ftr next to him?

[ArkoHighStar]

No. A rogue who devotes that many feats and enhancements should save on 1-3 even when his Greater Heroism is dispelled and he gets hit with curse, symbol of pain, or other debuffs.

as long as the ranger/rogue f in the same condition fails on a 10-13

[Pellegro]

I'm still waiting for someone to post the DCs of these supposedly too difficult traps.

I checked a lvl 7 quest - Gwylans. The DCs were 38 if I recall, on elite.

While you may not like it, elite is not +2. (As an aside, nor should it be .. apoint I'd gladly take up in another thread).

A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.

That means that (a) if you fail to properly avoid the trap using your commonsense or mess up and trigger it, then (b) you've still got a better that 50/50 shot at living.

Highly specialized rogues, or even highly buffed rogues, will do much better than 50/50, even at level 10-11.

Avoiding the traps has nothing to do with manual dexterity either. It involves timing and playing smart.

I see no problem, but if someone would post these supposedly impossible DCs I'd love to be able to compare the numbers of the only class in game who should be able to have any chance of ignoring an elite trap (i.e. full class rogue), and what their chances are of surviving.

Nobody complains that Mobs will kill them if they aren't dispatched by appropriate characters .... Traps are now like elite mobs. You've got to plan to deal with them.

[Scholar]

I'mI checked a lvl 7 quest - Gwylans. The DCs were 38 if I recall, on elite.

While you may not like it, elite is not +2. (As an aside, nor should it be .. apoint I'd gladly take up in another thread).

A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.

Why are you using a 10th or 11th level rogue as a comparison for a level SEVEN quest?? It's just as bad as using a level 11 rogue for the dragon raid. There were NO level 11's when it was created. You were supposed to be able to complete it, on elite, with a team of characters of no higher then 10th level. Wonder how many of you have your home DM tell you you failed on a 19 every time you run into a trap in his campaign, and are not the rogue. Bet that would go over real well.

[ArkoHighStar]

Why are you using a 10th or 11th level rogue as a comparison for a level SEVEN quest?? It's just as bad as using a level 11 rogue for the dragon raid. There were NO level 11's when it was created. You were supposed to be able to complete it, on elite, with a team of characters of no higher then 10th level. Wonder how many of you have your home DM tell you you failed on a 19 every time you run into a trap in his campaign, and are not the rogue. Bet that would go over real well.

It is lvl 9 on elite, and his belief is that elite is really more than +2 so a lvl 10-11 rogue is the right lvl for that to be doable, personally I thiknk a lvl 9 rogue on gwylans elite should have a much better chance than 50/50 he should be failing on a 6 or lower giving non rogues with the same stats and race a 50/50 chance which seems much more in line.

[Seneca_Windforge]

Funny how people are complaining about being "required" to bring along a certain class in order to do a quest. How many groups do you see tackling level appropriate elite quests without a cleric? Not very often. What about battle clerics? They can be considered the healers version of an MCrogue. Would everyone be comfortable if the majority of clerics were "battle" clerics? I doubt it. Now that a rogue brings something valuable to a party people are up in arms.

It's elite. It should be a challenge. A DC 40-45 trap for a lvl 10-12 rogue is not a problem, even without a huge feat/AP investment. It is for some of the wannabe rogues. I see nothing wrong here.

So my level 11 dwarven rogue9/ranger2 is a "wannabe rogue"? Buffed up with Greater Heroism, I'm probably not too much higher than +26-27 reflex versus traps, not including Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, yes -- a DC 40-45 trap for a level 11ish rogue IS a problem unless you jack up your trap reflex save by spending APs and feats.

My rogue brings plenty of things to the table -- he's a tough fighter than can dish out AND take a considerable amount of damage! Rogues are NOT only about traps. They can bring valuable things to the party that have nothing to do with trap removal...but now, they're pretty much going to be pigeonholed into that role.

Oh, and I love battle clerics, by the way. And no, I don't always take a cleric with me into elite content.

[Angelus_dead]

A level 10 or 11 rogue should be able to handle the 38 DC of the trap more than half the time.

You seem to have an illusion that a 50% chance is a good success rate.

Nobody complains that Mobs will kill them if they aren't dispatched by appropriate characters .... Traps are now like elite mobs. You've got to plan to deal with them.

Of course nobody complains, because it doesn't happen.
Any level 14 character can walk into a level 4 quest on elite and kill all the mobs himself with almost no risk. But very many characters of level 14 or even 16 will die in the traps- not only mages and clerics, but even rangers as well.

Putting a quest on elite adds +4 CR to the monsters, and +10 CR to the trap damage/saves.

[krud]

So my level 11 dwarven rogue9/ranger2 is a "wannabe rogue"? Buffed up with Greater Heroism, I'm probably not too much higher than +26-27 reflex versus traps, not including Improved Uncanny Dodge. So, yes -- a DC 40-45 trap for a level 11ish rogue IS a problem unless you jack up your trap reflex save by spending APs and feats.

My rogue brings plenty of things to the table -- he's a tough fighter than can dish out AND take a considerable amount of damage! Rogues are NOT only about traps. They can bring valuable things to the party that have nothing to do with trap removal...but now, they're pretty much going to be pigeonholed into that role.

Oh, and I love battle clerics, by the way. And no, I don't always take a cleric with me into elite content.

You have a slightly less than average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite? Since you went with a non dex race, and focused on combat, your reflex save is a few points behind. It is a trade off. Just like a wiz skimping on int and taking a few levels of MC so he can swing a sword, is gonna make his elite PKs somewhat iffy. All it takes is 3AP to get +2 trap sense. Hardly a huge AP investment. Add UD and you have a reflex save of +33. For a DC 40 trap you fail 30% of the time. For most rogues its 20% or less.

With good gear an unbuffed max specced trap rogue, or an above average fully buffed rogue, should be able to save against elite traps with some room to spare. A fully buffed average rogue should have some chance at failure, and a rogue with below average saves will find it a little iffy. For anyone else with no reflex save running thru elite traps should be problematic. Having one or two traps out there that push the envelope is not extreme. Especially, considering this one is in a raid. How hard can it be to make room in a party of 12 for one halfway decent rogue?

btw - has anyone detrmined the actual DC of this trap?

[Angelus_dead]

You have a below average to average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite?

It's not an issue of "guaranteed success". It's a question of "Can I save on ANYTHING but a natural 20?"

[krud]

It's not an issue of "guaranteed success". It's a question of "Can I save on ANYTHING but a natural 20?"

A little extreme dontcha think? For an average rogue it's more like 80% success or better. For the average non-rogue without a good reflex save it should be trouble. Running straight thru elite traps should hurt those without a good reflex save. Besides, not all elite traps are in the same category as the von5 traps

[Seneca_Windforge]

You have a slightly less than average reflex save for a level 11 rog. Should average be enough to guarantee success on elite? Since you went with a non dex race, and focused on combat, your reflex save is a few points behind. It is a trade off. Just like a wiz skimping on int and taking a few levels of MC so he can swing a sword, is gonna make his elite PKs somewhat iffy. All it takes is 3AP to get +2 trap sense. Hardly a huge AP investment. Add UD and you have a reflex save of +33. For a DC 40 trap you fail 30% of the time. For most rogues its 20% or less.

With good gear an unbuffed max specced trap rogue, or an above average fully buffed rogue, should be able to save against elite traps with some room to spare. A fully buffed average rogue should have some chance at failure, and a rogue with below average saves will find it a little iffy. For anyone else with no reflex save running thru elite traps should be problematic. Having one or two traps out there that push the envelope is not extreme. Especially, considering this one is in a raid. How hard can it be to make room in a party of 12 for one halfway decent rogue?

btw - has anyone detrmined the actual DC of this trap?

Uh...you realize that a "halfway decent" rogue won't cut it, right?

I already have the first level of the trap sense enhancement.

I am +19 by default (9 base, 6 dex, 4 trapblast). Versus traps, I am +23 from trap sense + trap sense enhancement. +27 with Greater Heroism (thankfully I have a Planar Gird...). Improved Uncanny Dodge (which I have only two uses of per rest) gets me to +31.

Is there really a point to putting more points in the trap sense enhancement? I mean, seriously...even with Improved Uncanny Dodge running, the most I could jack it up to would be +34 (for two bursts, it would drop to 30 the rest of the time), and that would be after spending an additional NINE action points. That still leaves me failing 25% of the time on a DC 40 trap, and with the increased damage they do, even my 188 hit points won't last long.

Yeah, I could've been an elf and jacked my dexterity up and left my strength low...but that's exactly the problem here. In order to be a "good" rogue who won't get butchered by traps they may have to run through to disable, people are going to be pigeonholed into the same old maxed-out dexterity/super high Reflex save build every time.

[Seneca_Windforge]

A little extreme dontcha think? For an average rogue it's more like 80% success or better. For the average non-rogue without a good reflex save it should be trouble. Running straight thru elite traps should hurt those without a good reflex save. Besides, not all elite traps are in the same category as the von5 traps

A "good" Reflex save isn't enough; the new elite trap DCs require seriously jacked-up Reflex saves. A ranger or bard who is constantly saving versus enemy spells in a particular quest is now rather screwed if they happen to run into a trap.

[krud]

Uh...you realize that a "halfway decent" rogue won't cut it, right?

I already have the first level of the trap sense enhancement.

I am +19 by default (9 base, 6 dex, 4 trapblast). Versus traps, I am +23 from trap sense + trap sense enhancement. +27 with Greater Heroism (thankfully I have a Planar Gird...). Improved Uncanny Dodge (which I have only two uses of per rest) gets me to +31.

Is there really a point to putting more points in the trap sense enhancement? I mean, seriously...even with Improved Uncanny Dodge running, the most I could jack it up to would be +34 (for two bursts, it would drop to 30 the rest of the time), and that would be after spending an additional NINE action points. That still leaves me failing 25% of the time on a DC 40 trap, and with the increased damage they do, even my 188 hit points won't last long.

Yeah, I could've been an elf and jacked my dexterity up and left my strength low...but that's exactly the problem here. In order to be a "good" rogue who won't get butchered by traps they may have to run through to disable, people are going to be pigeonholed into the same old maxed-out dexterity/super high Reflex save build every time.

Avoiding traps is a dex based skill. You neglected it in a class that typically excels in it. Why should it be made easy?

Should a dwarven str based ranger be able to pick up a bow and hit elite mobs as much as a bow specced dex based ranger? Afterall, he still is a ranger and rangers shoot bows. Should he even be able to hit elite mobs as much as an average, partially specced ranger? To be good at something will require some kind of investment. Dex is necessary to avoid traps. You chose str and comabt feats/enhancments to be able to excel at something else. What is the point of having all those feats and enhancements in game if all that is necessary is to be slightly below average? Your scores will still guarantee a good chance on normal or hard. One elite raid trap gives you a problem and now everthing is too hard?

As far as MC rogues, I have an elf 1rgr/15wiz. I like to shoot bows. Without any feats or enhancements I should be able to hit elite mobs as well as that average partially specced ranger, right? Even buffed to the max I can't always hit some elite mobs every time. On top of that, my spell DC should also be as good as any other wiz out there even though I took a level of ranger. I should be able to skimp on INT for DEX, and be able to land my PKs as well as anyone else. Why should I have to spend AP and feats and buff myself to the max to be able equal an average dex ranger at the expense of my spell casting ability?

[Emili]

I do not think anyone here is really getting my points at all...

A trap in DnD is nothing more than an obstacle. It's the same as any mob. In PnP we do not require any one class for a party and their are more ways to deal with a trap then having someone scoot their bum over there and toy with a little box. I mean seriously I can build a barb/rogue too and get improved uncanny dodge as you've stataed (PnP DnD wise)... but what you're all failing to see is you're trying to make some arguement for justifying uncanny dodge and improved evasion to the point of where it's a near requirement in some quests. You seem to want a poper challenge for the pure rogue who's spec'd to deal with this yet eliminate most the others... with that said the axe should swing both ways. Lets give the melee and casters a proper challenge in here too. Maybe they should have never changed the switches and runes at the doors? Maybe they should have put them as a 30 str 30 int instead of the 25 str 20 wis they have now?

I suppose if you feel this need to stress such importance on elite for these obstacles I should turn arround and "right-tune" the dungeon. By adjusting these trap obstacles to what they are now. It's my viewpoint they should do the same with the rest of the obstacles to make the dugeon truely balanced...

As such they should adjust the trash mob AC, HP and Saves in elite Von 5 to match. Bring the mob up to where you need a full BaB 11 plus full (str/dex mod +10) plus feat and buff to even hit the Mob so an ac minimum 40 on all mob. Increase the mob's hp by 10 swings worth of so - +800hp. That attunes the dungeon to proper balance mob for real melee challenge now... mob and traps are equal now and is just the start. Let us look into mob saves to make heighten and spell focus's challenges next, Let us strive to making every class ability and every feat a near requirement. We're just getting started to make a propperly balanced dungeon for elite content. Let's take every single quest and guarentee that on elite every full blown class is required and is challenged in it on elite. Every party will require a melee, caster, cleric, rogue, ranger and bard(to fill in some gaps) and the standard on elite should be within +5 from max capability (plus buffs) of any toon in thier respectable area of expertise.

Thank You.

[krud]

Not every trap is as high as that one trap in von5. That one is the exception, yet everyone is talking as if it were the norm. Let's not make it out like it is just like every other generic mob in the game. It is the red boss of traps for rogues. There are some bosses that are more easily beat down by melee while casters can only buff, and others that can be turned into an easy challenge with a well specced caster, while the melee just flail away. Many have shown that an average save rogue, with the right buffs should have a good chance at these traps. If a rogue is lacking, without a slew of buffs and some creativity it will be a challenge, no different than a stat damaging dex fighter finding he can't deal enough damage to that red boss. Sometimes you can't be everything, there are trade offs in character builds.

A comparison to PnP doesn't work for traps. A computer is not going to be able to satisfy all the possibilities a party of real people can come up with for dealing with these situations. So we get the trapbox in DDO, and rogues to deal with them. Has anyone considered inviting 2 rogues to the group (OMG! no!), just like everyone brings 2 clerics. An average rogue with appropriate buffs on each side should make quick work of those traps.

[Emili]

Not every trap is as high as that one trap in von5. That one is the exception, yet everyone is talking as if it were the norm. Let's not make it out like it is just like every other generic mob in the game. It is the red boss of traps for rogues. There are some bosses that are more easily beat down by melee while casters can only buff, and others that can be turned into an easy challenge with a well specced caster, while the melee just flail away. If a rogue is lacking, without a slew of buffs and some creativity it will be a challenge, no different than a stat damaging dex fighter finding he can't deal enough damage to that spell immune red boss. Sometimes you can't be everything, there are trade offs in character builds. Many have shown that an average save rogue, with the right buffs should have a good chance at these traps.

A comparison to PnP doesn't work for traps. A computer is not going to be able to satisfy all the possibilities a party of real people can come up with for dealing with these situations. So we get the trapbox in DDO, and rogues to deal with them. Has anyone considered inviting 2 rogues to the group (OMG! no!), just like everyone brings 2 clerics. An average rogue on each side should make quick work of those traps.

No it's not just those traps... it's all of them. Every trap in the game had a save DC raise on elite. Go run the habor quests on elite and test those and tell me if you find them level appropriate on elite.

[krud]

No it's not just those traps... it's all of them. Every trap in the game had a save DC raise on elite. Go run the habor quests on elite and test those and tell me if you find them level appropriate on elite.

As I said before, an unbuffed, well specced, level appropiate rogue, or above average rogue with full buffs should be able to handle the hardest elite trap with some room to spare. An average rogue with a little AP or feat investment or partially buffed should expect some chance at failing a save on the hardest level appropriate elite trap. Trap DCs should be set accordingly. I haven't been in the harbor to test the new DCs. If someone would post them, rather than saying "my sorc can no longer run thru these traps" we could determine if they are really too high.

added - at low levels everyone with a decent dex should have reflex saves that aren't very different. It isn't until the higher level rogue base save, trap sense feats, uncanny dodge, and (usually) increased dex kick in do we see them outstretch others (like melee classes do when it comes to melee). The main point in this thread is how much more on top of that does a rogue need to be in order to guarantee success on the hardest elite traps?

[ViVid7th]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but in PnP don't you need to have a Rogue to disable traps in the first place? Don't you need atleast one level of Rogue to gain the ability to use DD on traps and find traps that are higher than a certain DC, as well as to disable any magical traps?

I'll admit that not every PnP party needs a 'Rogue', but then again the party may not even run into any traps depending on the campaign setting.
[edit] Also, PnP traps were allot more dangerous. Many nasty spells or reactive effects (25 different traps on one door >.<) were common in dungeoneering. [/edit]

DDO follows PnP somewhat closely, and a Rogue is a mainstay of the party. I don't agree with the DC saves being risen to what they are, but a Fighter or Wizard with one or two levels of rogue should not be as good at every trap as a pure. There needs to be some incentive to stay pure, and this is what many classes are lacking.