Trap DCs

[ArkoHighStar]

The reality that plagues Turbine's repeated attempts to guide play in certain directions is that players have freedom in the game. If Turbine makes something too hard, the players will find a different, aberrant, but easier path. Stealthy Repo is a pain in the butt so lots of us just run it on elite for favor at high levels. The difficulty of The Dragon raid led to the pull and /death strategy. The lack of damage from traps as compared to the time delay of finding and disabling them led to widespread zerging.

I would submit that the 'correct' level of DC's/damage from traps is not some theoretical 'right' level of challenge. It's the level at which the ease of solving the problem in a non-aberrant way exceeds the ease of aberrating by enough margin to make it the preferred solution for most parties. If it is faster and cheaper to recruit a reasonably competent, level appropriate, trap-capable toon and give him or her the time to get the trap down, that is the right difficulty. Clearly that is not the case now.

Damage on disableable traps is more or less ok now.
agreed, traps should hurt enough that you have to think about wanting a rogue or not, and whether you would rather expend resources(buffing, healin) or give a spot to someone who can make the problem go away
Damage on non-disableable traps is much too high now.
agreed, this is the one case where having a rogue can't help you so having a trap that simply kills everyone makes no sense
DC's on traps are much too high.
on normal it is fine, hard is debateable, elite is just way too high for anyone without dumping everything into reflex save


I submit to you, Turbine, that anytime players are resorting to aberrant, perverse methodologies, there is something wrong with the balance of the game (not the players, as it sometimes seems you believe). Likewise, it seems to me that the various threads on this subject have been extraordinarily thoughtful and polite. It would be a positive sign of respect from you to respond in some fashion to the thoughts, comments and concerns expressed by your community.

To a certain extent I agree, but Turbine will never be able to keep up as we outnumber them, so all they can do is react based on our actions

Best,

Aladon

see comments above

[Aladon]

Can someone please post teh DC to save on the trap on elite?

And then the expected save of a level appropriate rogue (which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up)?

Then we can finally have an intelligent discussion.

If a completely maxxed out trapsmith only fails on a level appropriate elite trap on a 1-4 or so, then I think its fine, as a more typical build would fail on a 1-10 or so.

Basically, by being a rogue, taht would mean a 50/50 shot, on elite, of being able to ignore the trap and not find ways around it. And it means a greater than 50% chance of failure for a non-rogue. That doesn't bother me a bit.

If you fail, you just take your rez and run through. Next time, hopefully you'll figure out a more intelligent way to get past the trap rather than just running through it.

Thats just my opinion. I'd also be fine if a "typical" rogue, on elite, at level appropriate, only failed on like a 1-5 or so. What I think would be poor design is for traps to be ignorable by rogues, de facto, which would mean that non-rogues would be looking at better than 50/50 survival rates or so on elite. That to me is why traps are generally ignored now.

On elite, traps have to be dealt with, and that means figuring out how to dismantle them without triggering them. That's part of their challenge. ....

This is a great example of my post just above. That -might- be a reasonable criterion. The test is if, in reality, parties were following this 'recruit a good trapsmith and wait while he or she does the traps' strategy. If, as I suspect is the case, parties are not following this path but rather finding other ways around the new rules, then it is not a reasonable criterion.

Likewise, it's not even clear if that strategy works. It seems level appropriate, good trapsmiths will probably stuggle to cope with certain trap designs. Watching competent rogues die in traps regularly is bad for the game at so many levels.

Also, personally I do not accept the "which I would suggest would be 3-4 levels over the normal level of quest given that elite is now ramped up" argument. The stated difficulty level of Hard and Elite are one level higher per difficulty. This governs the XP and loot. If a 7th level quest on elite now requires an 11th level party, the entire structure of the game should be adjusted accordingly. If not, making this de facto true is just annoying.

Finally, we seem to have reached a point (as mentioned above) where the mobs are cake but the traps are horribly hard. This should this be a pretty good sign of a vicious imbalance in design. More importantly, what's more fun: killing mobs or watching another player (try to) take down traps? Big melee or dying, running and rezzing on the other side, hmmm?

As in my prior post, the key to the right difficulty level is where it's fun for the most number of players most of the time. Aberations are rarely fun and only then for folks with that frame of mind.

Best,

Aladon

[ArkoHighStar]

I don't have any major issues with this, but I think that we should be including other high reflex characters in this discussion as well. If Bards, Rangers, and eventually Monks, are failing a majority if their trap saves, even on elite, I think we have gone too far. It devalues high reflex saves for a class. And if they're failing, what about all the low reflex save classes. I don't think not having a rogue should guarantee a party wipe, even on Elite. I think that on Normal, even with little or no gear or enhancements, a level appropriate rogue with decent Dex, should fail on a 1. Other high reflex save classes should fail a little more often. On elite, I think it's fair to assume a higher dex, a few enhancements and some moderate gear should be assumed in determining the difficulty and that rogue should save of a 4 or so. Someone who really maxes out reflex saves should pretty much fail on a 1. But I don't think trap difficulties should be an automatic fail for everyone but a rogue though.

One of the problems when trying to fine tune the game based on DCs, is that they are a lot of ways to meet a challenge. It's really a very imprecise tool. A lot of the classes favored for splash rogue bulids also get high reflex saves, namely Rangers and Bards. If you try to make life hard for them, you really make life hard for everyone because there really isn't that much difference in their capabilities. Paladins with rogue splashes chan also hit the needed saves, but they have other problems concerning MAD and skill points. The Splash that would be impacted the most by increased trap DCs is the Wizard/ Rogue. A lot of these characters stick with 1 level of rogue to avoid losing caster levels. The low reflex save progression of the Wizard, along with a tendency to dump dex on some characters and the lack of evasion on the rogue 1 builds, would make even a slight increase in DC's an issue. Yes, they do get some buffs like resists, False Life and Nightshield, but it could be difficult to adjust and they are less effective against mechanical traps. But I don't really want to see them have to re-roll. If they decide to keep boosted DCs, we may have to find a way to include Arcane Trickster. The actual PrC requires 3 levels of rogue(without other PrCs being available) and the addition of a high Reflex save progression could keep these characters viable as a trapsmith in elite, at the cost of caster levels.

I'm not opposed to a modest increase, but I think the likely results of this change need to be thought out a little more fully and balanced a little better. But most of all, I wish the devs were talking to us about this a little more. As people mentioned in the old threads on AC an attack bonuses, you only have a spread of 20 before it becomes nearly automatic failure vs. nearly automatic success. At level 20, the difference between good saves and poor saves is 6, a 12 vs. a 6. We need to be careful how wide we make the gap when equipment and abilities are added.

I would counter by saying that reflex saves are used for more than just traps, but only rogues and barbarians get trap sense, so traps should be balanced based on favoring a class that has full trap sense capabilities. At lvl 15 a rogue has 5 extra points in trap sense with feats and a possible 4 extra from enhancements. That is a 5-9 point advantage over any high dex character with equal dex(regardless of how high or low). At the very least the trap dc's should take that 5 points into consideration.

On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

[EinarMal]

On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

This is not possible in a D20 system. That means that any non-Rogue pretty much as to roll a 18-20 to be able to save against the trap. This is not balanced with everything else on elite, why should traps be an exception? This same arguement, and I believe how it use to work, could be made for mob AC, mob damage done per swing etc...

What you seem to be saying is that you need about a 50 reflex save to save on a 1. That means that a really good reflex save of 30 (good against mob spells and anything else) is useless for traps on elite, might as well be a fighter with a reflex save of 10.

It makes no sense that the traps in an elite dungeon are more out of proportion with everything else. How about giving Rogues better abilities and not making trap DC the reason to keep them around? That will not work in the long run, for the few quests that require running through traps a trap monkey might get invited, but for the other 95% of quests they will not because they gimp their build to do one small part of the game.

Traps are just another challenge in a dungeon just like a red named mob. One should not be out of the normal reasonable level challenge and the other not. So, I guess all mobs on elite should have 55 AC so only those "really focused" on high to-hit like 50 str Barbarians can hit them (that is only fair right?)

[miceelf88]

I don't know that anyone is expecting the devs to keep up with all of this. But at some point even an acknowledgement that this is controversial would be a start.

We don't even know if they were intended to be THIS out of whack at this point. (I know they intended to up the difficulties and damage somewhat, but reflex 30 on level 1 elite? suggests that implementation might have been a problem).

We don't know if they will even consider revisiting this. If this is intended. If they're already reconsidering it. We don't know nothin.

Is this thing on?

[krud]

I'm going to take an issue with a few of the bonuses being tossed around here. A 30 dex was considered low. For VON, how high a level are we talking about? Yes, a twinked drow or a 32pt halfling or elf can do it fairly easily, but it's not so easy for other races and 28 pt. buillds. Do we really want to limit the races that can be rogues in elite so narrowly(except for Paladin splashes)? Let's look at what a 28 pt human can achieve for Dex at 12th level:
18 start
3 levels
3 rogue enhancements
1 human enhancement
5 Dex item

Total: 30
That is the max value excluding tomes. WF, dwarves, or half-orcs(when we get them) would max out at 29. A twelth level could have reached 1750 but it would be a pretty good feat, not to mention the fact that he would have had to face everything on elite to get there in the first place. You could use a +1 tome, but most people I know do not have a ready supply of tomes and are reluctant to use a tome if they plan on taking their favor tome in their prime stat.

Also, consider the cost for the above build. That 28 pt. human now has 12 points left to distribute. If you want Intelligence for traps and skills and Con for hit points you might end up with a build like this:
Str 8
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Chr 8

I would never want to play a character with so many dumped stats, especially a Rogue. Then consider the enhancement costs. That +4 to dex requires 14 APs, 3.5 levels worth. If you want to include the Trap Sense enhancements, add another 10 APs for a total of 24, 6 levels worth of APs. Half of your APs. If you want focus on traps, you'll need some of the disabling enhancements, Way of the Mechanic(and it's prereqs.) There aren't many APs left for anything else after that.

I'd also like to add that while it's perfectly fine to include Uncanny Dodge in the calculations, it is a relatively short term boost and it is limited to a few times a day.
.

It's not necessary to min/max as much as you say. Drop dex to 16 and you get 6 build points to shuffle around however you like. Just playing around on the character planner i made a generic 28pt human 12 rog. Max ranks in every important rogue skill with plenty of extra skill points to allocate. AP can be shuffled for a more focused build. Way of the mechanic is not necessary. Combat is not sacrificed, not the greatest, but not incapable of fighting. Even without a major trapsmithing focus with enhancements and feats, he is still plenty capable of getting thru elite content at level 12. Hardly gimped, and minimally twinked. Halfling, elf or drow gets even better.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.80
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 12 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 16
Will: 4

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 12) (with +4/5item)
Strength             12                    12   (16)
Dexterity            16                    23   (28)
Constitution         14                    14   (18)
Intelligence         12                    12   (16)
Wisdom               10                    10   (14)
Charisma             10                    10   (14)

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 12)
Balance               7                    17
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device        5                    18
Haggle                4                     7
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  7                    21
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  5                    10
Listen                0                     2
Move Silently         7                    21
Open Lock             7                    22
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                5                    18
Spot                  4                    17
Swim                  1                     1
Tumble                n/a                   7
Use Magic Device      4                    18

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip

Level 2 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense

Level 4 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Dexterity I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Search II
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III

what can we expect?

+38 reflex save, unbuffed:
base +8
dex +9
trap sense (feat) +4
trap sense (enh) +3
imp uncanny dodge +4
HV save boost +4
lightning reflexes +2
resist item +4 (trapblast goggles)

trapsmithing w/+11 gear, unbuffed
spot 30
search 35
DD 42 with +5 lockpicks
OL 44 " "

[llevenbaxx]

On elite I don't think anyone should be able to save on a 1, unless you are completely trap minded, meaning you have high dex, all 9 points of trap sense you have turned on improved uncanny dodge and have a decent reflex save item, less prepared rogues should fail on a 5-7 and those without the basic trap sense feats should fail on a 8-10(basically much ofthe difference coming from the basic feats). The guarantees that the investment in rogue levels means something, because taking 2 levels of rogue and having high dex should equal a lvl 15 rogue. Its like saying I can take 1 lvls of barbarian and have access to greater rage, or 2 lvls of wizard, and be able to cast lvl 8 spells

I guess I would be ok with that if they had a class in the game called "Trapsmith". Barbarians use there rage on everything, same for wizards and their spells. I completely disagree that a rogue should have to completely sell out on trap everything to be able to do the elite stuff reliably(only talking save DC really). It is a small part of the game, if you are going to expect rogues to gimp themselves to be a 100% reliable trapsmith, they arent going to find any love for the rest of the content when it comes to grouping. Imo, traps are supposed to be a perk of having a rogue along, not "****, we need an all out trapsmith for this part". They are a unique class which you cant really compare to the more structured classes.

Traps are not the end all be all of the game. They are a small part of what a rogue does, even on elite settings. I think Turbine needs to reclue in on this fact.

[Wildseed]

As a non-rogue person (traps being the end all and be all is not me) I have many chars with a splash of rogue. I have a 10fighter/3 pally/3rogue. I refuse to invest any feats into roguing, even if I were a straight rogue. I think the requirement of a feat totally negates the 'fun' factor for me and don't think it should be a "requirement" for anything like a trap (that's right cabal trap is the only one I can't get on my rogues) I also have an up and coming 14ranger/2rogue(3/2 right now), and 15wizard/1rogue (12/1 right now)(in preparation for arcane trickster. Although i do realize when it's in the game I might have to reroll her and do more rogue. I want to see the implementation before I decide though) I also have a 15 cleric/1 rogue (right now is 3/1 though she's in planning stage) I don't think traps are the be all and end all for me that's why all of my chars have a rogue splash and aren't a full rogue. Now a friend of mine has a rogue build i might try out that's a full rogue but if not built right, rogues are squishy and can't take the heat which is why I splash with other things. If I've invested the points into being a rogue I don't expect to be a full rogue but I do expect to be able to do some roguish things. The game is mistaken anyway, from its implementation ... all classes should be able to learn disarm I learned it in pnp the few weeks I played. They didn't allow that, fine then let me play MY rogue and that's what she is My rogue how I want to play her. Don't tell me how to play her. Trap DCs are out of whack can't stand in the trap or even go through it with high dex/reflex that is wrong. Please fix it.

[ArkoHighStar]

I guess I would be ok with that if they had a class in the game called "Trapsmith". Barbarians use there rage on everything, same for wizards and their spells. I completely disagree that a rogue should have to completely sell out on trap everything to be able to do the elite stuff reliably(only talking save DC really). It is a small part of the game, if you are going to expect rogues to gimp themselves to be a 100% reliable trapsmith, they arent going to find any love for the rest of the content when it comes to grouping. Imo, traps are supposed to be a perk of having a rogue along, not "****, we need an all out trapsmith for this part". They are a unique class which you cant really compare to the more structured classes.

Traps are not the end all be all of the game. They are a small part of what a rogue does, even on elite settings. I think Turbine needs to reclue in on this fact.

but they don't the 5 points from trap sense is free, I never said they should have to dump everything else, I am simply saying that 5 points should matter on elite, the rest is up to the persion making the build, but given equal race and stats a lvl 15 rogue should always come out ahead against an mc rogue or just someone high saves.

Rangers do not get any reflex save bonuses to traps
Fighter same
Clerics same
Bards same
wizards same
sorcerers same
Paladins get an overall bonus to all saves based on charisma bonus
Barbarians have both trap sense and improved uncanny dodge so given everthing else ebing equal they should equal a rogue spent no enhancements

That being said only someone with at least 2 paladin lvls or mostly barabarian should have an equal trap reflex save given equal race and stats. This in no way means that a strength based dwarven rogue with only say 14 base dex might be outclassed by a 24 base dex halfing 14 ranger/2 rogue who has taken all the race based save enhancements.This is expected, but even with that great disparity in stats, the ranger has a 7 dex bonus, and the rogue has a 2, but tack on the free feats and he equals the ranger with a 10 less dex.

This is the value in investing in rogue levels for traps and we are only talking about traps, and while rogues are more than trapsmiths, the feats scale with level and the gap grows to 5 points at lvl 15, therefore as I said given equal race and stats and no enhancements the rogue should come out 5 points ahead and the trap dc's should reward that.

Traps may be only one part if the game but they are there and the best class to survive them is the rogue, if you are not going to support that as a feature then why bother having traps in the game at all, or never make traps where you have to get past it or be in it, or lower the dc's so that everyone saves.

[Seneca_Windforge]

This is not possible in a D20 system. That means that any non-Rogue pretty much as to roll a 18-20 to be able to save against the trap. This is not balanced with everything else on elite, why should traps be an exception? This same arguement, and I believe how it use to work, could be made for mob AC, mob damage done per swing etc...

What you seem to be saying is that you need about a 50 reflex save to save on a 1. That means that a really good reflex save of 30 (good against mob spells and anything else) is useless for traps on elite, might as well be a fighter with a reflex save of 10.

It makes no sense that the traps in an elite dungeon are more out of proportion with everything else. How about giving Rogues better abilities and not making trap DC the reason to keep them around? That will not work in the long run, for the few quests that require running through traps a trap monkey might get invited, but for the other 95% of quests they will not because they gimp their build to do one small part of the game.

Traps are just another challenge in a dungeon just like a red named mob. One should not be out of the normal reasonable level challenge and the other not. So, I guess all mobs on elite should have 55 AC so only those "really focused" on high to-hit like 50 str Barbarians can hit them (that is only fair right?)

QFT.

This is basically what I've been wanting to say for a while now.

[shores11]

I really like the direction that the game is going in concerning rogues. In order to get a true "trapsmith" rogue you have to have high levels of evasion which in turn cuts down your damage. Those players that want an all inclusive character that can do everything just is not D&D. D&D characters are designed by nature to depend on each other to accomplish a succesful quest. Thank you developers for finally listening to the pure rogues of the game.

By the way my pure class rogue has no problem whatsoever with the traps in VoN 3 or VoN 5 on elite with disabling or with the trap DC.

Harper Moonblade
Kyber

[Seneca_Windforge]

I really like the direction that the game is going in concerning rogues. In order to get a true "trapsmith" rogue you have to have high levels of evasion which in turn cuts down your damage. Those players that want an all inclusive character that can do everything just is not D&D. D&D characters are designed by nature to depend on each other to accomplish a succesful quest. Thank you developers for finally listening to the pure rogues of the game.

By the way my pure class rogue has no problem whatsoever with the traps in VoN 3 or VoN 5 on elite with disabling or with the trap DC.

Harper Moonblade
Kyber

So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

[ArkoHighStar]

As a non-rogue person (traps being the end all and be all is not me) I have many chars with a splash of rogue. I have a 10fighter/3 pally/3rogue. I refuse to invest any feats into roguing, even if I were a straight rogue. I think the requirement of a feat totally negates the 'fun' factor for me and don't think it should be a "requirement" for anything like a trap (that's right cabal trap is the only one I can't get on my rogues) I also have an up and coming 14ranger/2rogue(3/2 right now), and 15wizard/1rogue (12/1 right now)(in preparation for arcane trickster. Although i do realize when it's in the game I might have to reroll her and do more rogue. I want to see the implementation before I decide though) I also have a 15 cleric/1 rogue (right now is 3/1 though she's in planning stage) I don't think traps are the be all and end all for me that's why all of my chars have a rogue splash and aren't a full rogue. Now a friend of mine has a rogue build i might try out that's a full rogue but if not built right, rogues are squishy and can't take the heat which is why I splash with other things. If I've invested the points into being a rogue I don't expect to be a full rogue but I do expect to be able to do some roguish things. The game is mistaken anyway, from its implementation ... all classes should be able to learn disarm I learned it in pnp the few weeks I played. They didn't allow that, fine then let me play MY rogue and that's what she is My rogue how I want to play her. Don't tell me how to play her. Trap DCs are out of whack can't stand in the trap or even go through it with high dex/reflex that is wrong. Please fix it.

what you have invested in is disable device, open lock and evasion. This should not buy you anything other than the ability to disable a trap box and take no damage if you make your reflex save. You should gain no advantage or be on par with a rogue of the same race and same stats(except maybe the pally mc if you have 20 charisma) and no enhancements taken. On normal and hard anyone with a good dex and decent items should get through most of the time, but on elite there should be a reward for sticking with rogue levels, the reward is the feat trap sense, and it should make the same trap much easier for the rogue than a non rogue or mc.

[Wildseed]

but they don't the 5 points from trap sense is free, I never said they should have to dump everything else, I am simply saying that 5 points should matter on elite, the rest is up to the persion making the build, but given equal race and stats a lvl 15 rogue should always come out ahead against an mc rogue or just someone high saves.

Rangers do not get any reflex save bonuses to traps
Fighter same
Clerics same
Bards same
wizards same
sorcerers same
Paladins get an overall bonus to all saves based on charisma bonus
Barbarians have both trap sense and improved uncanny dodge so given everthing else ebing equal they should equal a rogue spent no enhancements

That being said only someone with at least 2 paladin lvls or mostly barabarian should have an equal trap reflex save given equal race and stats. This in no way means that a strength based dwarven rogue with only say 14 base dex might be outclassed by a 24 base dex halfing 14 ranger/2 rogue who has taken all the race based save enhancements.This is expected, but even with that great disparity in stats, the ranger has a 7 dex bonus, and the rogue has a 2, but tack on the free feats and he equals the ranger with a 10 less dex.

This is the value in investing in rogue levels for traps and we are only talking about traps, and while rogues are more than trapsmiths, the feats scale with level and the gap grows to 5 points at lvl 15, therefore as I said given equal race and stats and no enhancements the rogue should come out 5 points ahead and the trap dc's should reward that.

Traps may be only one part if the game but they are there and the best class to survive them is the rogue, if you are not going to support that as a feature then why bother having traps in the game at all, or never make traps where you have to get past it or be in it, or lower the dc's so that everyone saves.

First of all, feats aren't free... Every feat taken must be weighed with what could have been. that lightning reflex could've been dodge, or TWF, or ITWF, or STWF or ... well you get the point. Feats are only nothing maybe to a fighter because they get so many. On a rogue they are finite and to me I think they could be better spent elsewhere, does that make my version of a rogue less than the rogue that took it, yes. should I have to take the feat to get through a trap I have to disarm. NO. I shouldn't have to, it should not be based on who took the most feats. Now if you're talking about saving on a 1 yes, I agree ... if you're talking saving on a 10 or something well I should be able to on elite. Yes traps should be dangerous, however do we really want the die in the trap rez on the other side thing again? I believe I recall having to do this before until they fixed it.

[ArkoHighStar]

So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

my point is that rogues do not have to invest a lot, as far as DD and OL rogues with even a 12 int have easily enough to keep those maxxed. Even a rogue with 14 dex base dex at lvl 15 has the equivalent of any other class having a base 24 dex(except pallys) without spending anything

[ArkoHighStar]

First of all, feats aren't free... Every feat taken must be weighed with what could have been. that lightning reflex could've been dodge, or TWF, or ITWF, or STWF or ... well you get the point. Feats are only nothing maybe to a fighter because they get so many. On a rogue they are finite and to me I think they could be better spent elsewhere, does that make my version of a rogue less than the rogue that took it, yes. should I have to take the feat to get through a trap I have to disarm. NO. I shouldn't have to, it should not be based on who took the most feats. Now if you're talking about saving on a 1 yes, I agree ... if you're talking saving on a 10 or something well I should be able to on elite. Yes traps should be dangerous, however do we really want the die in the trap rez on the other side thing again? I believe I recall having to do this before until they fixed it.

class feats are free if you take the levels

trap sense is a freely granted class feat per the compendium starting at lvl 3

Trap Sense
Rogues receive a +1 bonus to saves against traps. This bonus increases by +1 every three rogue levels thereafter.

[Seneca_Windforge]

my point is that rogues do not have to invest a lot, as far as DD and OL rogues with even a 12 int have easily enough to keep those maxxed. Even a rogue with 14 dex base dex at lvl 15 has the equivalent of any other class having a base 24 dex(except pallys) without spending anything

And yet he'll probably get butchered by the elite traps unless his dexterity is higher.

[ArkoHighStar]

And yet he'll probably get butchered by the elite traps unless his dexterity is higher.

and so would the 24 dex ranger because they are equal in the end given the feat bonuses the rogue has, but a 24 base dex rogue will happily make most of his saves and collect their stones

edit: Right now I think everyone agrees the dc's are out of whack for everyone and Turbine shoud lower them, the question is should they be lowered to where the rogue 5 point advantage doesn't mean anything or should they be just hig enough that a full rogue has little trouble but a mc rogue or someone with just high dex is going to have some issues. I am for the second option.

[Wildseed]

class feats are free if you take the levels

trap sense is a freely granted class feat per the compendium starting at lvl 3

I am not talking about trap sense. I am talking about lightning reflexes and some of the "NOT" free feats.

[krud]

So you'd rather people take a rogue along because they *have* to, rather than because they *want* to?

I'd rather rogues get some good abilities, not have to invest heavily in trap removal skills (which is a tertiary ability for them anyway), and be invited because a group sees them as a valuable class.

Funny how people are complaining about being "required" to bring along a certain class in order to do a quest. How many groups do you see tackling level appropriate elite quests without a cleric? Not very often. What about battle clerics? They can be considered the healers version of an MCrogue. Would everyone be comfortable if the majority of clerics were "battle" clerics? I doubt it. Now that a rogue brings something valuable to a party people are up in arms.

It's elite. It should be a challenge. A DC 40-45 trap for a lvl 10-12 rogue is not a problem, even without a huge feat/AP investment. It is for some of the wannabe rogues. I see nothing wrong here.