C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[Codog]

oh youre going to add duck command in the game? that would be cool which key for duck? c?

DOH! Hmmm... How can I save myself here? I roll play it using the /kneel command. Sorry, there won't be a duck command in the game.

Codog

[Malachi_Stormlight2]

oh youre going to add duck command in the game? that would be cool which key for duck? c?

Q for Quack

[Zenako]

DOH! Hmmm... How can I save myself here? I roll play it using the /kneel command. Sorry, there won't be a duck command in the game.

Codog

ummmm, perhaps just looking at the animation while TUMLBING to one side or the other, you kinda duck and roll....

[Mad_Bombardier]

Q for Quack

or A for Aflac.

[Malachi_Stormlight2]

or A for Aflac.

LOL

[Zenako]

There are a handful of ways you could enhance ranged attacks.

1) Change the underlying mechanics to reduce physics misses. (Being investgated).

2) Introduce new feats (based on D&D materials) to give new bonuses to ranged attackers (like the Power Attack/Cleave/GreatCleave/Whirlwind series for melee). D&D has a few high end feats with underlying requirements that require ranged attack dedication to take. Some of those seem like they would be nice additions to consider.

3) Introduce new magic items (bows) with perhaps Class restrictions (Ranger) for example. (Like the Adherants Pendant for Paladins). Perhaps a new Bow called FOE HATER, which doubles Favored Enemy damage for example.

4) New Enhancements which allow current abilities to become more effective. One often mentioned out would be Enhancements that would reduce the cooldown timer for Manyshot. Currently it is 120 seconds. A three step series that drops it 20 seconds a pop for each step and make them a 2/4/6 cost with appropriate level requirements. Right now Manyshot is "ok" for a single battle, but the pace of many quests leads to new encounters LONG before the timer has reset. Groups are often not that interested in waiting an extra minute+ all the time, rendering the boost a much more occasional use. In D&D Barbarian Rage is a lot shorter term effect than it is implemented in DDO, resulting in almost constantly Raged Barbs in many quests, leaving them somewhat overpowered. A lot of the grief about ranged attacks is how it stacks up with other classes and how they have been implemented and work in actual quest play.

[jjflanigan]

Here is something that has always "bothered" me about ranged combat, but I'm not sure how it could easily be resolved due to AI limitations.

When you are fighting a MOB that is currently in "ranged attack mode" if you step around a corner the MOB will keep shooting at you and the projectiles will get stopped either by the visible geometry or the, sometimes, invisible bounds checking on walls and pillars. Once you are in this position, if you face directly towards the MOB you cannot, of course, hit them due to the same wall. However, the PoV angle allowed before you are no longer considered to be not facing the mob is so great (like 60 degrees or so) that you can angle your self away enough so that your projectiles will still fling outwards to the target and avoid the geometry entirely.

This allows a player with a high ranged attack to position themselves so that their auto-attack ranged attacks will be able to fly outwards to the MOB and hit them as normal, while the MOB's projectiles are stopped due to the wall.

Again, this normally requires a large angle due to the geometry blocking projectiles rules, however it is possible in almost every single instance that has ranged attackers. To reproduce, go into any quest that has either a corner or pillars and ranged attackers (Tear of Dhakaan is a great one for testing this). Move out into position to trigger the archers and then duck back behind the wall. At this point inch towards the edge of the wall and then angle yourself out to around 60 degrees (you'll be able to tell when you get there because your projectiles will not get stuck in the wall but they will still fire since you are still "facing" your target).

It's nothing that can't be done using tactics since you can easily jump out to shoot and then hop back behind cover. What differentiates this is that you have free reign to just sit there and plug away at your target(s) without them having any chance to hit you back.

[5footStep]

It is fun to be able to dodge, duck, and roll out of the way of monster missiles. For now we are just changing player missiles. There is an off chance that some of the monsters might be using player missiles (which would be unfortunate and need to get fixed).

I hope this puts your minds a little at ease.

Codog

One thing I have noticed.. as far as dodging monster missles.. uh.... You know they still shoot arrows when they are paralyzed? As much as I know I look totally HAWT dodging my paralyzed foe that is still shooting at me.. while paralyzed..
oh... and uh... man last night I was swimming for the key behind the door in the Shan -To -Kor quest last night, and was continually getting tagged by arrows UNDERWATER from the archers 3 stories above me. LOL! Doh! I sooo want their aim!


now I gonna go back and sleuthe this thread for thrower information.. *hugs her halfling thrower.. mmm Sprue*

[Davrim]

There are a handful of ways you could enhance ranged attacks.


4) New Enhancements which allow current abilities to become more effective. One often mentioned out would be Enhancements that would reduce the cooldown timer for Manyshot. Currently it is 120 seconds. A three step series that drops it 20 seconds a pop for each step and make them a 2/4/6 cost with appropriate level requirements. Right now Manyshot is "ok" for a single battle, but the pace of many quests leads to new encounters LONG before the timer has reset. Groups are often not that interested in waiting an extra minute+ all the time, rendering the boost a much more occasional use. In D&D Barbarian Rage is a lot shorter term effect than it is implemented in DDO, resulting in almost constantly Raged Barbs in many quests, leaving them somewhat overpowered. A lot of the grief about ranged attacks is how it stacks up with other classes and how they have been implemented and work in actual quest play.

Honestly, I have always thought that Many shot should be a stance.

According to SRD:

As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).

As rangers level, they should have the ability to choose how many arrows they want on their shot, at the cost of attack bonus. If they choose to continuously shoot 2-arrows at a -4 attack penalty, their choice. The could make it 3 arrows at -6 or (when cap raises) 4 arrows at -8 to hit. There will always be opponents that will be missed because of this choice.

Just my 2cp.

[Mad_Bombardier]

oh... and uh... man last night I was swimming for the key behind the door in the Shan -To -Kor quest last night, and was continually getting tagged by arrows UNDERWATER from the archers 3 stories above me. LOL! Doh! I sooo want their aim!

What, you don't have the coveted Underwater Action Arrows?

Actually we can target underwater things, too. There's just not many cases where you need it. The trogs in Tangleroot are one example. They are in deep enough water where you can't melee, but you can still shoot them. The other example is the 2 or 3 barrels underwater by the hatch in WW2. You can target them while swimming and climb out or Jump/shoot and break them underwater.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

CODOG, one thing that I think would be greatly helpful for Ranged Combat is to make Precise Shot / Improved Precise Shot a stance. That way a ranged type can choose how he wants to shoot.

Improved Precise Shot can be very nice, and add a bit of extra damage, but it also can grab a *LOT* of aggro in a very short time, and that can be a very BAD thing for most ranged-types. Allow us to choose which we want to use (or neither), as the situation permits. If I have a wall of melee-types clogging up a doorway, I want IPS running, but if it is a more open area, I probably want PS, so I can selectively choose what mobs attention I may get.

Secondly, as many have stated before, the cooldown on Manyshot is WAAAAY too long. 120 seconds can be 4+ encounters in DDO, and like a previous poster stated, the Barbarian can keep raged most of a quest, a Paladin can keep DF up most of a quest, but the Ranged type has 20-second bursts every 2 minutes when he is actually effective.

I also think some ranged-loving is long overdue in the loot tables. I have rolled and deleted a Heavy-Repeater build and a Ranged Build a few times, in great frustration at the scarcity of Repeaters or good bows as static/raid/named loot. I know there have been a few good ones recently, but there are very few "Good" Ranged weapons out there (especially Repeaters) to look forward to.

I think one other factor in a lot of the Ranged-Hate links into the "Moving Mobs Can's be hit by Melee" issue, discussed elsewhere. Once a mob is on the move, it is virtually impossible for the melee types to hit it, since Mod 4. This makes the Ranged guy more hated, as any aggro he pulls will be chasing him, and he, of course, will be on the move to avoid getting clobbered... so then your Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/etc guys are running around like crazy trying to hit the moving mob to either do damage or pull the aggro off you, but it is so hard to hit them, that it is nearly impossible, unless you can setup a shield wall to get a chance to hit them.

A moving monster is supposed to be at -4 AC, but with the current physics, as implemented in Mod 4, that means nothing because you just can't register a hit at all. Without Haste, or Speed Boost or something like that, you can't get alongside or in front of the mob to have a chance to register a hit on it... and that is the only 2 ways I have been able to hit a moving mob with my melee guys... I have to pull alongside or ahead of it.... even if I am directly behind it, litterally on it's heels (with it slowing my running progress due to physical intersection/clipping of my toon and the mob), and I swing my weapon, no hit will be registered 95% of the time (No dice roll, no nothing).

-----------------------------

One other thing to consider, is that if Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload will work on Repeaters for Mod 6, do you realize how nearly impossible it is to build a Repeater-spec guy now? Let's assume a L14 Pure Fighter, and go Human for the Bonus feat:

Things you need on a repeater build:
1) Exotic Weapon: XXXXX Repeating Crossbow
2) Dodge
3) Mobility
4) Point Blank Shot
5) Shot on the Run
6) Improved Critical: Ranged
7) Precise Shot
8) Improved Precise Shot
9) Toughness

Things you really really want on a repeater build:
10) Weapon Focus
11) Weapon Specialization
12) Greater Weapon Focus
13) Greater Weapon Specialization

Now, with mod 6, the other "important things" you want:
14) Rapid Shot
15) Rapid Reload

Now a Level 14 Human Fighter (Pure Fighter) gets 14 Feats... we are at 15 feats you want for this build, and this is limited to only one of the 2 Repeater types... I think that the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Repeating Crossbow should grant both Light and Heavy Repeaters, as they are so difficult to find, and the only characters that are going to take Repeating Crossbows are going to specialize in them and build around them, so why not give them the benefit of both weapon types.

Look at it this way: In PnP, you can take "Exotic Weapon Proficiency" as 1 feat, and you are granted proficiency in *ALL* Exotic Weapons. Now, granted that DDO allows Weapon Focus/Spec & Improved Critical in a Family of Weapons instead of one single weapon, but why that deviation? Ok, I can understand not wanting to give Repeaters, Kopeshes, DA's, Kamas, and Bastard Swords in one feat (we will ignore Shuriken, as they are basically useless)... but please, at least consider lumping Light & Heavy Repeaters into 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat!

[Chance]

I have to say Codog, Your honesty and direct approach with communications are a primary reason for me reactivating my account here with DDO.

I can say I am dismayed with the lvl cap moving so slowly, but really the lack of informative answers and not being in touch with the customers desires are the real factor I left for.

I believe in the game and it's potential, the management of information and decisions has left me scratching my head many times though.

Your willingness to come forward and speak so candidly (even when it isn't exactly what we want to hear) and so personably, have given me hope back.

So I just wanted to applaud you, your overtime efforts and your ability to connect with us as people as well. Your efforts predominantly ( though not to lessen Quarions brilliant polls lately or Eladrins dissertations) gave me the faith in you guys to come back. So it may not mean a lot and I know you hear all the "I quit" rants, but I wanted to say you (all three of you) brought me back to play.

You do good work here.

[Boulderun]

Exotic Weapon prof does not give you all exotic weapons, only the one you choose (like focus and spec). The all-in-one feat is a Neverwinter Nights 1/2 thing.

Improved Precise Shot has another issue that needs consideration. Untargetted shooter-style archery has been brought up a lot here, but IPS does nothing without a target selected (and it's usually really hard to use when you do).

IPS is really the only thing that keeps ranged remotely competitive with melee (manyshot doesn't count because it's a clickie, not passive). If nontargetted archery is supposed to be a valid play style, IPS needs to work with it too.

[nbhs275]

Mod 6 barbarian 14/ ranger 2

Str 50
Dex30

silver longbow 1d10+20 str+6 bard songs+2 weapon +2d6 holy= 31-50(15-20/x3) Crits = 107-144, with 4 arrow manyshot. thats what range combat should be. And will be come level 16.

[NameisToad]

Hey Codog, thanks for the great feedback on what you're doing to help. I saw your request for information and felt a need to share, even though I haven't posted in this thread before.

Sure thing. I'd rather be honest and open and have expectations be set appropriately than to have people disappointed. Let me know more about your bow character. I'm really curious about what feats/enhancements you've chosen. What level(s) have your character achieved and what equipment are you using?

Do you mainly use targetted attack or untargetted? Do you play casually or do you play very often? I'd like to be able to echo to my the lead systems designer what a person quitting a ranged character has to say about what made them stop playing aside from the "it's not fun".

I created a Drow Rogue named Welsh on Riedra about a year ago, I think. He had max dex and two levels of Ranger, but he was really a rogue, in skills and in equipment load.
Welsh achieved level 7 before I couldn't get groups with him anymore and decided to delete him.
After the merge, maybe he would have been viable again, I don't know. But I deleted him long before the merge was announced.

Just before the merge was announced, I saw a post in one of these forums asking what would be the most powerful possible ranged build.
I followed some of the advice, and built an elven Ranger/Fighter. She currently has two levels of Ranger and three levels of Fighter.
I haven't played her in about a month, because she's just not effective.
I'm using multiple effect bows and hitting more often than I miss, but she doesn't do enough damage to kill anything before it gets into melee range. I find that she is much more effective (with a strength of 14 and a dex of 24) as a melee combatant than she is as a ranged combatant.
So her primary weapon right now is her scimitar, and she can pull out a bow when the situation allows for it.

Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

I'd really like to give you some answers to this, but I'm not sure what I can say. I've seen a group of four rangers, a wizard and a cleric run through Stormcleave and mop up, using mainly bows... but I was the wizard in that party, and I don't know what bows those guys were using. I know my level 5 elven archer I mentioned up there gets to use her bow a couple of times in Stormcleave, but it's usually the mobs at the bottom of the canyon while I'm still at the top. Anything I shoot at is going to be on top of me before I've hit it three times, and three hits doesn't knock anything down. I have to switch to melee to really be effective, even when my sword is a +2 Scimitar of pure good, and my bow is +1 flaming of pure good, because melee gets so many more attacks per round that doing d6 less damage every shot and hitting half as often (half the percentage of attacks are hits, due to the afore-mentioned disparity in stats) I still get more damage done in a shorter time period.
I like the number of arrows we're able to carry, and I like the Deneith sturdy arrows, but I can't bring myself to bring more than a thousand arrows into any quest anywhere, due to the rarity of arrows being able to kill anything.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

Thanks and kindest regards,

Codog

I missed that part on my first read through. A Positive Aspect? Try taking a party of 3 Repeater builds, a Bow-based Ranger, an Arcane, and a Cleric (all level 3-4) into the Cerulean Hills.... Talk about FUN! There is enough room to kite everything around while picking them apart ranged. The Cleric and the Arcane won't have much to do!

Basically, I have found that if you have room to maneuver, or good CC spells (solid fog, etc) to get physical distance, that a group of ranged can do very very well... at the lower levels. At the higher levels, the damage just isn't there for Ranged types, unless you manage to get W/P or Greater Bane of every type. The Melee types are doing such extreme damage on each hit, where the ranged guys just can't keep up, as the ROF doesn't scale.

But at low-levels, I think Ranged Combat is VERY well balanced... don't mess with that... but find a way to make the High-Level Ranged Combat as feasable, reasonable, and fun as a low-level experience

[NJDaniels]

I'd like to be able to echo to my the lead systems designer what a person quitting a ranged character has to say about what made them stop playing aside from the "it's not fun".

I started my Rogue as a ranged fighter with bows until I unlocked 32pt builds... I decided to remake him but even though I had a whole bunch of cool bows, I realized it wasn't fun and switched to Heavy Repeaters.

I can take a stab on what makes playing a ranged bow character not fun.

-At low levels when things have fewer HD and you can one shot kill things, it's great fun. When you progress to higher levels the HD inflate on every creature. Your damage doesn't increase nor does your attack rating increase, the only thing that does increase is your frustration.

-Melee characters get mad at you and tell you stop running so they can kill the creature you're fighting. Without a sword and shield and the heaviest armour possible your AC sucks, standing to wait for them to kill it while the creature beats on you is frustrating.

-Everything plays on Elite once you're level capped. The HP tacked on to every creature is so insane that you can't even kill one creature while the rest of the group has killed all his friends.

-Manyshot sucks, it's the bread and butter of every ranged character and it's a 30 second timer with a 5 minute cooldown. Is it too much to ask for it to be a stance that's always active? Ranged attacks are never going to be as powerful or as fast as melee, especially when someone with GTWF can swing 9 times in 6 seconds...

-Every creature in the game seems to have a +60% striding boots because even hasted everything still catches up to you... so most ranged characters invest in jump and (if they're a Ranger cast it) find a place to perch. You keep taking those away too!

-Hard to get groups. I don't know many people (unless suited for a quest) who say "Hey that Ranger uses bows, lets ask him to join!" when they need a last person to fill their group with. Given the option, they'd take anything else before a bow character.

So I hope that this is constructive enough for you to help you understand why Bow Ranged Characters get frustrated and quit their characters. There might be more reasons but this is just a few I could think of.

[Invalid_86]

Say is there any chance that mighty bows can be put into the game? Any class should be able to pay the cash to get a strength bonus applied to their arrows. As it stands now many characters can actually do more damage with a thrown dagger than with a longbow. Adding these bows would be a straightforward way to help ranged combat that is still rooted in the core rules.

[Missing_Minds]

Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

Ranged combat issues.

1. "Dungeon scripting". The great thing I was looking forward to in DDO was the fact mobs will (aka should have) been spawned such that I could shoot them from a distance and kill them as they attempt to reach me. Guess what... that doesn't happen. Half of the time they spawn in right next to you. So what is the point of having range?

2. "Game limitation." Again the great thing I was looking forward to in DDO was the fact that I could shoot spawned mobs from a distance. Well, proof of concept died. Go out in Gianthold for a prime example of this. Walk around, see that huge tent there in the distance? If you get a bit closer suddenly you'll have a giant running right at you that you never saw before. How the heck can you not see the giant standing right IN FRONT of the tent, BLOCKING the tent from sight? Again, this is a game engine issue that I find COMPLETELY annoying.

3. "Camera in foliage." I really really wish anything between the camera and your character was transparent. I mean seriously, why am I getting blinded by a leaf that isn't anywhere near my character's field of vision?

4. "Rage lasts for minutes many shot lasts for 20 seconds." Rage has a cool down of 1 minute and can be dismissed. Manyshot has a cooldown of 2 minutes. Emm... yeah, this is balanced. Right. Assuming a CON modifier of +10, rage lasts 13 rounds in PnP (or 78 seconds.) Why the huge fear of many shot lasting longer?

5. "You CAN'T swap weapons when shooting." Esp. prevalent with a bow (probably crossbows as well) As soon as any mob gets in your face it takes 6 seconds to change weapons. 6 seconds of you standing there going "Please kill me. I won't hurt you." I do not spam my shot, and I wait for the animation to be completed before shooting again. Once I see a mob running towards me I stop shooting my bow. It takes 3 seconds to actually swap out a weapon. If you have ANY shot in your cue at all, it will take SIX seconds. By this point that is 2 - 3 free attacks on you. I have shot mobs that were right in front of me, then hit my button to change to sword/board 5 times, each with half second delays for each change weapon request. Then I hit my attack button. End result, weapon NEVER changes, and I shoot my bow. This is complete and UTTER.... well, you get the point I'm certain.

6. "I'm not a twitch player and the targeting is messed up." We can no longer target mobs that we can not see. Given how the game is currently acting I was annoyed with this change. Now I can't even target mobs that I can see. I have to freaking mouse click on them to target them even though I see them clear as day. This makes me lose 6-8 seconds because I play via keyboard, not Twitchy Fingers McShooty. Those 6-8 seconds easily means my death at times.

7. "Then and now." Supposedly back in beta, the rate of fire was much higher to the point everyone was shooting stuff dead before it got to them. When you have an entire party geared for shooting, that will happen. Also back then all you had was freaking WATERWORKS. That was IT!!! Kobolds do not last, plain and simple. What do we have now? How many MORE dungeons have been added? Why are you stuck on the same mentality to calm things down at the lvl 1-3 which becomes "ranged combat doesn't do much at all" at levels 5+. You have penalized players such to where to have much fun with any ranged build you must have uber weapons and a tricked out build.

8. "There is no attack progression." Every single shot is at the LOWEST possible chance to hit. WHY??? What is the brilliant idea in that? Does shooting things suddenly mean they have a lower AC? No it does not. Shooting things mean they have two chances (normally) to avoid being hit. A) Server must say target is in path of the arrow. B) We must roll to hit them. We've all see just how well pathing has been working now for such a long time. (and thank you for putting in fixes, we really do appreciate it.) But the second part... as melee's stand still they get higher attack bonuses as a GIMIC to get them to stand still. What does ranged combat get? NOTHING. Ranged combat has the worst chances to hit and the worst attack rate. Why bother continuing on something that is ALWAYS penalized?

9. "Ammunition space" If you follow a melees, they typically will have a weapon for each and every enemy. (aka the greater banes). Well, so will a lot of ranged people. Melee's get one spot in their bag per weapon. Ranged get one spot in their bag per weapon IN ADDITION TO however many stacks of ammunition they desire/require to finish a quest. In other words, melee people get more bag space than ranged people. This additional loss of space also translates to additional weight to be carried. (No, I have no issues with weight gain from arrow. Just pointing out another difference between melee and ranged.)

10. "A high base attack character still shoots slower than most all mobs." By this I mean not a pure rogue or cleric speced for shooting, but say the ranger class. A high level ranger shooting its bow will still shoot slower than low level mobs in swipped signet. Do you have any idea at all how discouraging and dishearting this is?


Ranged Combat joys

1. "improved precise shot" Long hallways. All of those beautiful numbers that flash up on the screen when mobs are just so nicely lined up.

2. "Wide open area with targets." The times that I can just pick and choose my targets that I want to die. Not the spawns right on top of me. The way things should be.

3. "The ability to kill something at is it coming to get me." Sadly, they normally aren't alone. (yeah, I have to deal.)

4. "The ability to shoot into combat with friendlies and never hurting them." yeah, I know it was part of the decision for non griefing, but thank you! I always hated making that roll in table top.

5. "slayer arrows" man.. I wish we could get a hold of more of these. I mean I understand the need for limitation, but still.. with the large number of mobs we have it would be nice.

6. There is no compensation for wind, traps that are physical, or explosions. Meaning we can shoot through the stuff and not worry.

7. We have infinite shooting distance.

8. I never have to worry about my string breaking on my bows, nor do I have to worry about the weather ruining my strings.


Ranged desires.

1. "They can stun, so why can't we?" Make Stunning Blow or the sap wacking feat work with ranged combat. Enemy NPC archers can do this, I want to do this as well.

2. Make Improved Precise Shot a stance. This will give ranged people more tactical options. There are times we don't want to hit everything in sight and just the one. Madstone with saving the Seerer from the giant skeletal arcane being one such place. I would think our characters would be smart and talented enough to not shoot someone they don't want to. Players like options, yes we do.

3. Allow us to make trip attempt with ranged as well. This may require a feat or so, but man.. that would be great and give us more options for tactical play.

4. Auto arching. NPCs auto arch to shoot over obstacles, yet all we have is straight line. I miss ye old scorched earth (if you remember that game) of being able to arch shots. Sure we'd loose some infinite shooting distance when we target, but I can deal with that.



I will be trying out my 5th and final ranged build with the hopes mod 6 will restore some hope, if it doesn't... I give up. I am not a twitch player, I target. I have some very nice gear and everything. I gave up on a lot of ranged stuff when Mod 3 hit because it broke so much of ranged based attacks. I'm praying things get fixed.

[isldur]

I've been reading all of codog comments in this post and I must say thank you. I'm glad you are looking into the missing die rolls, hopefully most of these can be fixed.

I'm a casual player, (due to work and weather, when it snows it will be more) playing from start of the game. Man am I sorry I missed beta with all that ranged love.

As in pnp, my first character was, and still is a pure ranger. A 28 pt maxed out pure ranger. At low levels he rocked, until the speed progression of swings to bow shot became way too much. He has all the enhancements (both elf and ranger to make him a bow expert)
There needs to be some increase in bow speed with level advance. My level 14 ranger shoots as fast as when he was 10? level. So is my 16 level ranger gonna shoot just as slow? That is just wrong. I don't want to hear any crying about this making bow using rangers to powerful, because melees have been for way too long.

First there was the shot on the run issue. You couldn't reload while moving, let alone shoot without shot on the run. I didn't realize this when first playing the game, so I (with help from guildies) respeced him to get shot on the run (using almost all my feats). Then you change the whole thing and let everyone get to load and shoot on the run (with -4 penalty). Grrrrrrr. Fine little mad but I could live with it. Lots of rangers drop sotr after this but I stuck with it, I could hit almost anything in the game while kiting it. I'll get grief from fighter cause they have to chase them but thats what intimadate is for. You do your job, I'll do mine

Then because the fighters and barbs get that stupid swing to hit progression you had to make mobs ac and hp ridiculous, without any such progression for bows combined with the slow rate of fire compared to swings lol bow user loses again. I guess I can grab the sword so I can get the same to hit progression. Grrrrrr.

Bow using rangers are disliked by the majority of groups out there. Most of these people are misinformed or have never played with a good one, but they have a point. With the current rate of fire, cool down for multi shot, and the lack of good bows in the game the ranged character (I use ranger because thats what I play) must work really hard to be effective and appreciated.

I don't need improved precision shot to toggle. I can manage my own aggro. It wouldn't hurt, but I'd never turn it off. I've been doing that since the beginning of the game. All mobs seem to be hate being hit by arrows. Fighters tell me its the aggro in the game (magic first, ranged second, melee third), devs tell me its the damage being done. I'd like to think the devs are right, 2 crits of over 100 hp does seem to get mobs attention.

Now you want me to lead targets (without targeting them lol) so I can get more to hit rolls, even tho with my feats, and elven background I'm suppose to be a great bow user? I don't use auto attack but now i shouldn't target them either? I really don't even care if I see my arrow, just give me a to hit roll!

Don't get me started on arrow space.

Basically I have nothing to track, I've lost all my animal friends, my spells are basically for making people jump higher and making them look like a tree, and now my bow is quickly becoming useless. Grrrrrr.

As far as crossbows, well no self respecting elven ranger would even use such a silly contraption

Thank you for your time.