C'mon CODOG... say or do something!

[Kerr]

Codog ... You really are what Devs should be like.

I .... I think I love you.

[Snike]

Lol... something I been wondering. Cdog has any Co-workers tried to pull any pranks on you since how the forums are? So much hate for Devs but all loving and praising Cdog... Any coffe grinds in your bottled water?

[Kerr]

In all seriousness though, maybe it's just me, but I've noticed when I switch to Manyshot on, I seem to burn through arrows very fast even using the Deneith Returning Arrows.

Has anyone else noticed this? Is it possible the arrow #1 is getting a returning chance, but arrows #2 and #3 aren't? It just seems like using manyshot burns arrows out much faster than it should be.

[ErgonomicCat]

You mean from back when you played that game from a 5 1/4 floppy on an Apple IIe? Thats how my father and I bonded when I was younger. Good stuff.

I ran mine on my friend's C64. God, the three of us (all burgeoning proto-geeks) would argue over what to do...

We actually created a party, and each of us had a character we controlled. In combat, it was fine (except that I always wanted to choose (S)hoot, and they always wanted to (A)dvance). Out of combat, it was horrible. "NO! Left! That's a teleporter! Idiot!'

[Namelessone]

Sure thing. I'd rather be honest and open and have expectations be set appropriately than to have people disappointed. Let me know more about your bow character. I'm really curious about what feats/enhancements you've chosen. What level(s) have your character achieved and what equipment are you using?

Do you mainly use targetted attack or untargetted? Do you play casually or do you play very often? I'd like to be able to echo to my the lead systems designer what a person quitting a ranged character has to say about what made them stop playing aside from the "it's not fun".

Expressing frustrations in a constructive specific manner can sometimes lead to change. I'm an engineer on the team. It is my job to make designer's ideas technically possible. I've not always agreed with designers, and from time to time I have to 'eat my vegetables' and implement features I disagree with. The one thing I've learned about working with the design team is that giving specific arguments is a lot more persuasive than general argument. Heated argument tends to temper and harden other people's resolve. It is hard to see somebody else's point of view when you are angry.

I understand that quantifying fun might be very challenging. Please do take time to analyze and express specific moments or gameplay mechanics that can be improved. Please bear in mind that at this point in our development, evolutionary steps that can be accomplished in relatively short development cycles are more likely to see light of day as opposed to _revolutionary_ change that cannot possibly be crammed into small development cycles.

Please also keep in mind that immediate response is not a reasonable expectation. We are executing on Module 6 now. This means that our feature set is locked down and we are sprinting to get our work done to release on time. However, your feedback can help us make better decisions in the future.

Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

Thanks and kindest regards,

Codog

I can help with this one Codog.

My first character in DDO back at head start was a Human Ranger (based on a Half-Elf pnp character)

I capped her during mod 1, and always used "targeted" attack. I can tell you that on several occasions I was discriminated against (rather the ranger but it impacted my play). Lets put it this way I joined a party for the dragon, (which I refuse to run to this day because of what happened) and 5 seconds later everyone complained to the leader for inviting a ranger. I was removed from the party in seconds. I have also (back in mod 1) Tried to join parties but was unable to because of my class. Thanks all to Ranged Combat having such a bad reputation. I can tell you, simply it was really not fun -_-

I then one night decided to make a fighter and I was blown away at the difference between ranged and melee, and have been converted ever since. Each day I hope that Ranged Combat will get some major loving, but so far 5 mods later nothing.

Coupled with slow attack rate, the ranger class in ddo has never looked anything like pnp, not being able to find a party, getting removed because I was a ranger in a party caused me to put my ranger on a shelf to gather dust. I play her on occasions, but when I do I always get frustrated and I again have to put her back on that shelf.

What has caused me to stop playing were the reputation that ranged combat has that caused my many nights of just sitting in front of the screen doing nothing, sluggish none scaling BAB for ranged combat, and well fighters getting to see way more action/red numbers than their ranger cousin. Many times I could not hit anything and I had a dex of 26. Lets see I roll a 10 + 18 = 28 Miss. I get to wait and try again, I roll a 13 + 18 = 31 Miss, I roll a 4 + 18 = 22 Miss and I would start to think "maan this is going to be a long night."

I was completely speced for ranged combat, all the feats. Point Blank Shot, Doge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, (the MOST crucial feat back in the day) Improved Crit. Ranged. Those were my feats, and my ranger enhancements were (the old school ones, but I can't remember the names) Ranger Stealth, Ranger Acrobatics, Ranger Action Boosts, and Ranger Dex.

[Codog]

In all seriousness though, maybe it's just me, but I've noticed when I switch to Manyshot on, I seem to burn through arrows very fast even using the Deneith Returning Arrows.

Has anyone else noticed this? Is it possible the arrow #1 is getting a returning chance, but arrows #2 and #3 aren't? It just seems like using manyshot burns arrows out much faster than it should be.

Good observation. I'll check into that for you.

Codog

[dragnmoon]

Codog Here is my view on ranged.. I have not gone through much of this thread so I am sure I am repeating things.

Let me start off in saying I do not use Mouse look targeting.. I hate it.. it gives me a headache.. I always 'tab' my targets face it and fire away. I also never use auto attack.

The only point I have problems other then with moving targets (That I understand) is when there is a stationary target in melee with others in my group. I just not getting attack rolls with every shot when I should be. I Believe it is linked to the same problems casters have when people jump in front of their spells.

Now past that here is the main problem.

RoF:

I know you have stated that the RoF was not something you guys are looking to change but everything wrong about ranged comes down to this. And it out does any Pro for ranged. You just can't compete with melee because the RoF is just to slow. I understand your reasonings behind not making the RoF the same a Melee, but it is just to slow making it worse. You need to find a balance with RoF and melee so the dmg out put is equal to melee not less. Until this happens ranged will never be a good viable option.

I will tell you as a D&D player playing a ranged character is something I always loved but as soon as I noticed that ranged was not equal to melee in attack speed as it is in D&D I was just put off on it and it became a secondary attack not a primary attack.

Now I can still handle a little slower because I know that if the rate was equal the DMG out put could potentially become greater with ranged then melee (I can have a Flaming bow of pure good with acid arrows.. can not do that with melee), But like I said the RoF as is, is just to slow and the Dmg out put is just way to low.

Upping the RoF, which is the majority of complaints would go far in fixing ranged, and until this happens any fiddle around you do with it will not lead to much. IMO the only way to fix Ranged Combat is to give what everyone wants, get over the reluctance of the developers in adding it and make the RoF of Ranged faster. Until this happens Ranged will be a secondary attack for a majority of players.

The best way to implement a RoF increase would be to increase the RoF of all classes, rangers should not get special treatment with this (Outside of enhancements), since anything the ranger can get anyone else can with spending for the feats. If you must give ranger special treatment on RoF do it through an enhancement that gives a small % increase to RoF as the level up the enhancement.

[Zenako]

Ranged combat. Some thoughts and ramblings.

As some have mentioned, at low levels it is competitive with melee and offers a very good riskreward ratio. (It still does to some degree at higher levels, BUT the dynamics of most groups who are questing work against any fighting method that takes noticeable longer even if the damage taken is far less.)

Where the problem lies mostly is in the change in relative effectiveness as character levels increase. The options available for dishing out damage are not as robust for ranged attack as it is for melee combat. IF all the monsters had normal HP for their HD then this would be an almost moot point, but with the seriously inflated HP most monsters have, the differences become more telling. A great many of the mobs we end up fighting are by design immune to many special effects (crits, various special effects and so on.) so even trying to use a special effect attack really boils down to damage since the monster is unaffected by the special.

I have played in some midlevel quests in all Ranger groups, they worked very well, BUT that was because we all had the same agenda for dealing with encounters. The problem arises when the ranged attackers and melee attackers both want to "get into the action". As an expert archer I can fire away all sorts of debuffs (Curse, Destruction, etc) and make the melee's life easier and have done so many times, but it is frustrating to be a full BAB melee class and feel that the best way you can help the party is to just help others. You end up feeling like you are not carrying your weight that way.

Now I know I am carrying my weight in quests. Various buffs, resists, heals, jumps, etc all boost the party. I can take down enemies at distances spell casters can only dream of. In a quest like Gwylans Stand for example, I can generally take out the boss mob after toggling Manyshot on, before they reach us. I play an Elf with maxed out Spot skill and +13 Spot goggles. I can see things many characters do not know are even there. In some quests I have been talking to others in the party about the mobs ahead and they are asking where they are? They cannot see them. That is a nice feedback reward for investing in the Spot Skill. I get a gameplay benefit.

Move forward to someplace like Giant Hold. The mobs out there have crazy HP, enough that it is almost not possible to drop them even with Manyshot. So what do we need to do. To try and be competent out there, we need to get semi uber items like WP Bows or Para Bows. Hitting the Ac of non boss mobs is not too hard. 13(BAB) + 11 (Dex) + 2(Elven Boosts) + 3 (bow or ammo minumum) for +29 BEFORE any spell like buffs (GH, Bard Songs, etc.) Unless the Mobs AC is well over 40, we can hit pretty reliably. The problem arises that while the Giant/Minotaur we fought at 7th level out in Gwylans or the like had 300 Hp, the mobs in GH seem to have on the order of 1000 HP, but our routine ability to deal damage has not tripled with ranged attacks. With Melee however, it is a different story. There are various feats which significantly up damage, the NUMBER of attacks granted per "round" also has increased for melee, and the effectiveness of various special moves has also increased as well, which means that the ability of a warrior in melee to defeat the mob has scaled at about the same rate as the power/HP of the mob has scaled. Ranged attack is more effective, but has been losing ground as the levels go by.

A few other "annoyances" for ranged attacks. Inventory space. Keeping a selection of suitable ammo on hand will take about 1/2 a page of backpack. Keeping a range of bows for reasonable options will likely take the other half of that page. I assume EVERY character should have an assortment of potions, scrolls, wands or clickes to deal with various things and that all those are about equal so that takes another page (or more). Any sort of well versed and equipped fighter will probably have a half page of weapons available for use. (A Ranger with his free TWF feats will probably have that or more likely double the number of weapons for use. If one WP Dagger is good, wielding two of them is that much better!) Pretty soon we run out of inventory space. I am often lucky to have a little over half a page open when starting a quest when playing my Ranger, while I have a full page or more empty playing my Paly, Bard or Cleric. To be an effective ranged attacker thus ends up meaning you sometimes had to dump treasure or just give it away. (The recent Gem bags help.) Allowing MAgical or House D arrows to stack more than 100 to a stack would be a nice benefit that would make stocking up for a ranged attacker feel less of hassle. (Much like magical components can be stacked many hundreds high, let magical house D ammo stack OR introduce a 100% returning Arrow available from House D.)

Very few special bows of note. The Silver Bow (a level 6 required weapon) is still about the best bow most ranged attackers have available for 24/7 use. Numerous threads have discussed and compared the various bows on the market. The new Raid Bow from the Abbot alas can barely count in this talk since that loot is being won so seldom these days. It would be very nice to find some other nice bows. I mentioned one in an earlier post. "Foe Hater" It could be something along the lines of the Silver bow. Double base Crit range, d10 damage, pure Good and will Double Favored Enemy Damage. Probably something like a Level 12 bow. Just an idea, but the number of special, and sought after melee weapons far outstrips the number of named or special bows that have been populated.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>Let me know more about your bow character. I'm really curious about what feats/enhancements you've chosen. What level(s) have your character achieved and what equipment are you using?

Do you mainly use targetted attack or untargetted? Do you play casually or do you play very often? <CUT>. Please do take time to analyze and express specific moments or gameplay mechanics that can be improved. <CUT>Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

I too have a ranged combatant that I don't play much (though I'm not done trying). Here are my answers to all of your questions:

• Setback, ranged fighter. Took 2 lvl rogue for skills and evasion, 2 lvl ranger for Bow Strength, and the rest (will be) Fighter for feats. Currently lvl 6.
• As for feats and enhancements: Everyone said ranged combat is impossibly nerfed in DDO, so I set out to prove them wrong. My rule is that if there is a feat or enhancement that can increase my offensive effectiveness, I must take it. If I have a choice between getting +10 damage on a sword vs. +1 with a bow, I go with +1 with a bow. I believe I have successfully maxed out my ranged combat effectiveness.
• I am currently using the Silver Longbow.
• How much do I play? Way way too much... Just ask my wife...
• I use auto attack, combined with either clicking on the enemy I want, or tab-selecting.

So far, my best effort to show that ranged combat can be effective have essentially failed. If I want to be successful, I almost always have to switch to melee. Unfortunately this toon, buffed to the hilt for ranged combat and nerfed to the core for melee, is much more effective when using melee than ranged.

1) The attack rate is too slow when compared to melee. If a melee guy is getting 2 to 5 hits for every one I make, it is pretty difficult in the best of circumstances to keep up. For ranged combat to be effective, archers need to have an attack rate equal to equivalent level melee.

2) The damage is too low. Tanks can pump all of their attribute points into one stat (STR) for huge bonus to hit and damage. Ranged combatants must split it between SRT and DEX. This is a GOOD inherent weakness of ranged combat that should be sufficient to justify the benefits. Ranged combat should not be further nerfed beyond this.

Likewise, melee fighters can use a feat to get something like Kopesh and Improved Crit for a 16 to 20 crit range... This is just one example of many similar uber options for melee. There is nothing like this for bows.

Likewise, Arcane casters have PK, FoD, FW, CK, etc. to take out ranged targets up on ledges, etc.

What possible argument could there be for why ranged fighters should not be allowed to use a Legolas / Robin Hood attack that approaches the damage of melee?

3) Tell 2 QA guys to only play rangers for a couple of weeks and report on how effective they are. I think the issues will be immediately obvious. It seems as if there is a fear that making ranged combat more effective would unbalance the game... But the fact is that it will not. Every ranged combatant who joins a party (if ranged combatants were fixed) would on average replace a tank who is already very powerful for combat. No one is going to replace a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Rogue with a Ranger.

So, the only thing that making ranged combat more effective would do, is it would result in a lot more happy rangers. And, a lot more parties willing to take a ranger when they need another combatant.

WHAT IS GOOD ABOUT RANGED FIGHTING IN DDO:

• Kobold Assault is fun if you can get several ranged fighters in group... It is no fun for one or two rangers because they get swarmed and killed. But the ratio is just right for several rangers.
• Breaking boxes is a lot easier!
• I like the types of feats available, although I think they should be made more effective... There should be a rapid reload for longbows.

SUMMARY OF WHAT IS NEEDED:
I think the whole thing could be solved by adding a few feats for ranged combatants... Perhaps giving one or two of them to rangers for free at 6th and 12th level...

• 2 levels of Manyshot (I.e. regular and improved). Maybe regular available at BAB 5 would give you 2 arrows per attack, and improved would give you 4.
• 2 levels of Rapid shot. Regular would give you an extra attack (stacking with Manyshot. And improved would give you 3 attacks.

This would put a lvl 14 ranged fighter on a par with Tanks and Sorcerers for combat. You can think of someone like Legolas as having Improved Manyshot and improved Rapidshot, for a total of 12 (or 16) arrow attacks per round. But, each attack would be rolled separately, so some would miss. And because each group from manyshot hit the same target, a really talented guy with a paralyzer could still only potentially hit 3 seperate targets (very unlikely to get the aim off that quickly anyway).

Even if all 12 arrows hit, with a silver longbow (the best bow in the game) for example, the DPS would still be considerably lower than an equivalent level TWF barbarian. (Who would be getting 5 attacks per round with his holy dwarven axe/ holy hand axe combination)

Some would argue for a lot more than that. But I will be thrilled if ranged combat is brought even to the same ballpark as melee or arcane. Right now it is no where even close.

Thanks for listening.

[wizzy_catt]

or A for Aflac.

or S for Socks

[nbhs275]

or S for Socks

who have game one clinched, 13-1 going into the 8th.

[Sillius]

First of all, thanks for your effort and taking the time to reply.

Here are my thoughts...

Sure thing. I'd rather be honest and open and have expectations be set appropriately than to have people disappointed. Let me know more about your bow character. I'm really curious about what feats/enhancements you've chosen. What level(s) have your character achieved and what equipment are you using?

My bow char is ranger2/figther11. When I created this toon, she's supposed to be an uber range fighter.
Feats... typical like rapid shot, manyshot, etc.
Some cool stuffs like punturing and distrupting.

Do you mainly use targetted attack or untargetted? Do you play casually or do you play very often? I'd like to be able to echo to my the lead systems designer what a person quitting a ranged character has to say about what made them stop playing aside from the "it's not fun".

- Always targeted.
- I'm a casual player that plays very often. Most of my non-working hours are spent on DDO... I have a few toons and enjoy the different types of play style required.

What's not fun :
* Party members said "Pull"... and u did... after your party members killed the entire group of mobs, you're still kiting and trying to kill the one that you pulled while trying to stay alive.
It just takes forever to kill one. Not to mentioned it irritates the ppl trying to help you to kill that one mob.
* Dex based + slow rate of fire = little dmg ( insignificant )
* The slow rate of fire is also very boring to play... you fire.. wait... fire... wait
* With low RoF, you'll die if you don't kill the mob fast enough ( just one, i'm not talking about the whole group )

There's really no advantage in playing a ranged fighter.
DPS is too low.
Nobody will asked specifically for a ranged fighter unlike rogues/sorc/tankers/cleric/bards.. hmm that's all the classes except ranged spec ones. lol... sorc/clerics/bard can hand out the buffs while do cc or nuking.. a ranged fighter? Better take a tanker for better DPS and a good meatshield.

My ranged fighter ended up TWF and was a secondary tank ( not main ) and finally retired when i rerolled a ranger13/rogue1.
I didn't even bother trying out using bow with this char.. it's just too slow.
And saves me the hassle of trying to arrange or keep those arrows.
It has been TWF till lvl cap.

Expressing frustrations in a constructive specific manner can sometimes lead to change. I'm an engineer on the team. It is my job to make designer's ideas technically possible. I've not always agreed with designers, and from time to time I have to 'eat my vegetables' and implement features I disagree with. The one thing I've learned about working with the design team is that giving specific arguments is a lot more persuasive than general argument. Heated argument tends to temper and harden other people's resolve. It is hard to see somebody else's point of view when you are angry.

Agree. In engineering myself, it's always easier to talk about facts than feelings or assumptions.

I understand that quantifying fun might be very challenging. Please do take time to analyze and express specific moments or gameplay mechanics that can be improved. Please bear in mind that at this point in our development, evolutionary steps that can be accomplished in relatively short development cycles are more likely to see light of day as opposed to _revolutionary_ change that cannot possibly be crammed into small development cycles.

Please also keep in mind that immediate response is not a reasonable expectation. We are executing on Module 6 now. This means that our feature set is locked down and we are sprinting to get our work done to release on time. However, your feedback can help us make better decisions in the future.

Also, please draw some light to some of the positive aspects of ranged combat in the game that you _wouldn't_ want to see changed. Specific dungeon locations that you found to be really cool or fun give our level designers some feedback on situations to create that are fun for ranged combatants.

The only fun thing I remember is getting the Manyshot feat and the mob died quickly for once.
Then only to be disappointed when I found out that the cooling time is so slow!

IMHO, ranged is nerfed too much to be of any fun. I'd rather melee since it's more efficient and not worry about the thousand types of slaying arrows. Or inventory management.

I will not be expecting any changes soon because I'm sure all these has been highlighted before and there wasn't anything done on the RoF. And I'm sure you and other developers have their own set of targets to meet etc for mod 6 and this isn't part of the plan.

I'll just continue playing other classes... but no ranged build for me thank you. Although I really love playing a ranged fighter.

Hopefully, you will find my comments useful.

Thanks again for taking the time to listen.

Sillius
P/S : Just my opinion, some of you might have better builds than my squishy one...

[Sillius]

HumanJHawkins,

Just realised that your comments and mind are almost similar... lol
Well said!

[wizzy_catt]

who have game one clinched, 13-1 going into the 8th.

thats different S though!

[Geonis]

There are a handful of ways you could enhance ranged attacks.

1) Change the underlying mechanics to reduce physics misses. (Being investgated).

2) Introduce new feats (based on D&D materials) to give new bonuses to ranged attackers (like the Power Attack/Cleave/GreatCleave/Whirlwind series for melee). D&D has a few high end feats with underlying requirements that require ranged attack dedication to take. Some of those seem like they would be nice additions to consider.

3) Introduce new magic items (bows) with perhaps Class restrictions (Ranger) for example. (Like the Adherants Pendant for Paladins). Perhaps a new Bow called FOE HATER, which doubles Favored Enemy damage for example.

4) New Enhancements which allow current abilities to become more effective. One often mentioned out would be Enhancements that would reduce the cooldown timer for Manyshot. Currently it is 120 seconds. A three step series that drops it 20 seconds a pop for each step and make them a 2/4/6 cost with appropriate level requirements. Right now Manyshot is "ok" for a single battle, but the pace of many quests leads to new encounters LONG before the timer has reset. Groups are often not that interested in waiting an extra minute+ all the time, rendering the boost a much more occasional use. In D&D Barbarian Rage is a lot shorter term effect than it is implemented in DDO, resulting in almost constantly Raged Barbs in many quests, leaving them somewhat overpowered. A lot of the grief about ranged attacks is how it stacks up with other classes and how they have been implemented and work in actual quest play.

I really like #4, but if you do add ranged specific feats or enhancements, please don't make them Class specific.

I have a character with Manyshot, and a whopping 2 levels of Ranger, (The rest Bard) and this would be extremely disappointing. How about doing like Toughness enhancement, where 1-2 classes get it, and 1 race gets it, but don't let it stack.

[Partymaker]

Very nice and interesting post Missing Minds I especially like the following points and would appreciate CODOG comments on the subject (Mines are gonna be in red)

Ranged combat issues.

4. "Rage lasts for minutes many shot lasts for 20 seconds." Rage has a cool down of 1 minute and can be dismissed. Manyshot has a cooldown of 2 minutes. Emm... yeah, this is balanced. Right. Assuming a CON modifier of +10, rage lasts 13 rounds in PnP (or 78 seconds.) Why the huge fear of many shot lasting longer?

So true.

The best: make it a stance. Why? Unlike melee fighters who can try to trip, sunder, & stun again and again and again and again without absolutely nothing required, this isn't the case for range. We ALREADY are limited with ammunitions, we can't go on many shots 24/7 anyway even if it was a stance!

The simplest: drastically lower the cooldown to something like 35-40 seconds max. So this would gives a possibility of 20 seconds of many shot per minute (with a cooldown of 40 secs).

5. "You CAN'T swap weapons when shooting." Esp. prevalent with a bow (probably crossbows as well) As soon as any mob gets in your face it takes 6 seconds to change weapons. 6 seconds of you standing there going "Please kill me. I won't hurt you." I do not spam my shot, and I wait for the animation to be completed before shooting again. Once I see a mob running towards me I stop shooting my bow. It takes 3 seconds to actually swap out a weapon. If you have ANY shot in your cue at all, it will take SIX seconds. By this point that is 2 - 3 free attacks on you. I have shot mobs that were right in front of me, then hit my button to change to sword/board 5 times, each with half second delays for each change weapon request. Then I hit my attack button. End result, weapon NEVER changes, and I shoot my bow. This is complete and UTTER.... well, you get the point I'm certain.

The problem with the reload animation seems to be part of the change about shot on the run in MOD3, when they decided everyone could now run and reload at the same time. Since then, the reload animation can't be stopped in any ways and this is wrong without a doubt. Any action done to interact with another object should instantly stop the reload animation: swapping weapons, casting a spell, using a clicky, using a pot/wand, etc. Otherwise you're compelling our toons to act like they had 2-3 of INT! Who would stupidly continue to "try" to reload anything when there's an angry _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill the blank!) running on you?

7. "Then and now." Supposedly back in beta, the rate of fire was much higher to the point everyone was shooting stuff dead before it got to them. When you have an entire party geared for shooting, that will happen. Also back then all you had was freaking WATERWORKS. That was IT!!! Kobolds do not last, plain and simple. What do we have now? How many MORE dungeons have been added? Why are you stuck on the same mentality to calm things down at the lvl 1-3 which becomes "ranged combat doesn't do much at all" at levels 5+. You have penalized players such to where to have much fun with any ranged build you must have uber weapons and a tricked out build.

Good question too... High-end mobs have SO MUCH HPs, Ac and saves especially on elite that even back to these old rate of fire, it wouldn't unbalance anything, it would probly only put us all on the same "level". I always find funny to see brainless skellys or stupid hobgoblins being like 3-5 times better than my range builds, that are suppose to be Heroes At least a significant increase would be needed, even if we're not going back 100&#37; to the BETA RoF.

8. "There is no attack progression." Every single shot is at the LOWEST possible chance to hit. WHY??? What is the brilliant idea in that? Does shooting things suddenly mean they have a lower AC? No it does not. Shooting things mean they have two chances (normally) to avoid being hit. A) Server must say target is in path of the arrow. B) We must roll to hit them. We've all see just how well pathing has been working now for such a long time. (and thank you for putting in fixes, we really do appreciate it.) But the second part... as melee's stand still they get higher attack bonuses as a GIMIC to get them to stand still. What does ranged combat get? NOTHING. Ranged combat has the worst chances to hit and the worst attack rate. Why bother continuing on something that is ALWAYS penalized?

Other good points. There's no logical reasons why range fighters shouldn't get better at what they do, like melees.

9. "Ammunition space" If you follow a melees, they typically will have a weapon for each and every enemy. (aka the greater banes). Well, so will a lot of ranged people. Melee's get one spot in their bag per weapon. Ranged get one spot in their bag per weapon IN ADDITION TO however many stacks of ammunition they desire/require to finish a quest. In other words, melee people get more bag space than ranged people. This additional loss of space also translates to additional weight to be carried. (No, I have no issues with weight gain from arrow. Just pointing out another difference between melee and ranged.)

OMG, quivers plzzzz! Why not 3 sizes of them like collectible and gem bags? A small quiver that could holds 10 stacks of ammunitions, a medium one that could hold 20 and a large one that could hold 40.

Ranged desires.

1. "They can stun, so why can't we?" Make Stunning Blow or the sap wacking feat work with ranged combat. Enemy NPC archers can do this, I want to do this as well.

That would be so sweet!

2. Make Improved Precise Shot a stance. This will give ranged people more tactical options. There are times we don't want to hit everything in sight and just the one. Madstone with saving the Seerer from the giant skeletal arcane being one such place. I would think our characters would be smart and talented enough to not shoot someone they don't want to. Players like options, yes we do.

Yeah, Precise Shot should be permanently active, while we should be able to toggle on/off Improved precise Shot at will.

4. Auto arching. NPCs auto arch to shoot over obstacles, yet all we have is straight line. I miss ye old scorched earth (if you remember that game) of being able to arch shots. Sure we'd loose some infinite shooting distance when we target, but I can deal with that.

Now that would change range! But it would probly require too much work atm and might bring much more "new" problems we wouldn't want either...

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Hoping CODOG read this thread too as he always does I would add a suggestion, then ask for a little question

Suggestion: to get rid of the queued actions on range, that so often makes us lose a shot after reloading, isn't it possible to make it so "start of reload animation = empty queue list!" ?? I wish it really is that simple...

Question: I think you said you were going to check what was going on with the range alacrity from the Black Dragon armors and haste, as we can't benefit from haste once we have the armor (for combat purposes tho, it still affects our running speed). Did you found anything on that? The best buff should always have priority, so haste should overcome the armor once casted. If for some dark reasons it was impossible to fix, needless to say it would be very lame to have spent THAT much effort/resources to get an armor that immune us to haste In such a case, would it be possible to then raise the range alacrity to 15-20% (haste gives 24% attack speed bonus if I'm right so it'd still be lower than the part of the spell we're immune to).

Tx again CODOG for the time you so generously take to answer all of our endless questions/comments, it's just too cool

[Cupcake]

My input from my perspective.

Cuppcake lvl 14 Ranger (12)/Fighter (2)

Speced completely for ranged attack.

Improved critical Ranged.

Best weapons +5 shocking burst LB of something or other, Paralyzer, Cursespewer, Smiter.

Once in a blue moon, my shots will miss.

I tab target.
I leave auto attack on. Its faster.
I use many shot all the time.
I use house D returning arrows. I don't buy them very often.

I have no complaints with her performance. Even against the Undead Beholder. She was dealing damage.

Reaver. Same thing. She deals damage.

Normal quest, say POP madstone, whatever, she kills what she shoots and mobs drop dead before they are even half way near her.

New quests, a little tougher because of phasing etc.

All in all, I have no complaints whatsoever about my ranger or her performance.

[GrayOldDruid]

I began play with a Ranger who is now lvl 7 ranger, lvl 2 rogue.

I've had all of the issues with the low rate of fire - even though I got the rapid shot feat, it pretty much did not do anything - the simply no roll at all on firing at a target - I use the 'point at' targeting method instead of 'click to select' target method simply because its dang hard to click on a kobold when there are four fighters standing in your way and it is moving around like crazy. I can point at it much better than having to click on it. I think I may be missing some quick-key or something there - IS there a way to hit a key to 'target closest opponent' or even 'target furtherest opponent' (Further would be nice, since this is Ranged and you have tanks to deal with the close stuff). I've had the "can't switch away from the bow no matter how many times I click on the 'sword-n-board NOW button' on the quickbar" issue, which is potentially deadly.

One issue I've had that I have NOT seen discussed is that some times when I am pointing my crosshairs toward an oncoming enemy, my arrow will zoom off up and to the side (usually left). It will do this several times before I am able to actually shoot toward where I am pointing my bow.

Right now in most quests, I can fire my +3 Composite Longbow of Pure Good at almost anything and do some decent damage. Sometimes 40-50 points per hit (plus the addeds). With good rolls, I can take down a Tangleroot hobgoblin or troll in three shots. Sometimes, if the combat is close quarters, I have to switch to TWF just to be able to get an opportunity to hit. The bow is still not coming anywhere close to my melee damage, which is sad because I am a RANGEr.

[Cupcake]

I began play with a Ranger who is now lvl 7 ranger, lvl 2 rogue.

I've had all of the issues with the low rate of fire - even though I got the rapid shot feat, it pretty much did not do anything - the simply no roll at all on firing at a target - I use the 'point at' targeting method instead of 'click to select' target method simply because its dang hard to click on a kobold when there are four fighters standing in your way and it is moving around like crazy. I can point at it much better than having to click on it. I think I may be missing some quick-key or something there - IS there a way to hit a key to 'target closest opponent' or even 'target furtherest opponent' (Further would be nice, since this is Ranged and you have tanks to deal with the close stuff). I've had the "can't switch away from the bow no matter how many times I click on the 'sword-n-board NOW button' on the quickbar" issue, which is potentially deadly.

One issue I've had that I have NOT seen discussed is that some times when I am pointing my crosshairs toward an oncoming enemy, my arrow will zoom off up and to the side (usually left). It will do this several times before I am able to actually shoot toward where I am pointing my bow.

Right now in most quests, I can fire my +3 Composite Longbow of Pure Good at almost anything and do some decent damage. Sometimes 40-50 points per hit (plus the addeds). With good rolls, I can take down a Tangleroot hobgoblin or troll in three shots. Sometimes, if the combat is close quarters, I have to switch to TWF just to be able to get an opportunity to hit. The bow is still not coming anywhere close to my melee damage, which is sad because I am a RANGEr.

Did you check key mapping under Options? I think there is a way to do what you are looking for.

As for Cuppcake when I was lvl 4-6 I was able to one shot the Hobs, on normal, 3 shot on hard or elite.

What I find interesting about all this is, so many of you are experiencing the same issues. But I am not. Either I am not, or I am not noticing it because I don't know any different since I am unfamiliar with the rules and how things "should" be.

[MysticTheurge]

Did you check key mapping under Options? I think there is a way to do what you are looking for.

There is, but it's not set to anything by default.