Official Shadow/Wall of Fire Feedback thread. - PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION HERE.

[Cheg]

Tell me why i would swing a second time if it was -5 to attack from the first?

The ONLY time i would do that is some easy quest where i'm hitting everytime at -15 to attack.

[BlameCandida]

The fact that you cant tell them apart from the enemies is a good reason just to make them all dangerous.

Although in PnP you would know if your party's caster were to cast a spell, since it is a turn -based game. Players should be able to distinguish friendly spells from mob spells.

[BlameCandida]

Tell me why i would swing a second time if it was -5 to attack from the first?

Because the mob is still alive and you need to kill it? Not swinging is a 0% chance of doing damage, swinging (at a penalty) is at least a 5% chance of doing damage.

[Kerr]

or they could just get rid of the cumulative bonus to hit and make it like it is supposed to be in Pen and Paper.

Then mobs wouldnt need huge AC's to counteract melees ability to hit, and other non combat classes could do things other than stand back and cast.

OHMYGODTHATSTHEMOSTBRILLIANTIDEAEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I suggested it many times myself. The Devs are clearly pro-inflation of D&D rulesets. The game's thoroughly broken unless a wipe of the world and complete rebuild is done, and the Devs clearly don't have the balls for it.

Me, I'm going to just continue with my ridiculous stats on my characters that should be godlike, but even pale in comparison to some people's stats and just play the game out in it's final months before it closes shop. If it took only a year to shrink it's population of servers down to 4, I think we should all just be ready for the inevitable announcement "thank you for playing, but we'll be closing next week."

[Borrigain]

Why do you feel the need to trumpet your superior intelligence every other sentence? People will want to listen to you if you don't sound like a condescending ass.

Ouch! Must have hit a soft spot with that one.

Don't mean to sound like an @$$, but with all the carping, whining, and blaming the dev's for things we bring upon ourselves, sometimes it helps to elicit an emotional response from the lowest level to get some feedback.

Anyway, nice feedback so far, and yes, I agree there "would" be some accidental griefing at first, and there "could" be some intentional griefing later, but as pointed out, those people would only be burning their own bridges, most servers I've visited do have a sense of community and word travels.....I imagine those intentional griefers would be blacklisted in no time at all.

But I don't foresee widespread intra-party flamestriking just for the sake of it. Guild groups might "f***" with each other, but leadership should be dealing with that as it occurs, it's not the dev's problem. And I know I wouldn't be doing it in PUG's, as I want to complete the mission as much as the next guy.

Now Twerrp, that might work and I could sign on for that, an option that allows it for those who would prefer the "challenge". Or another good point, our own parties sooper dooper enhancements might hurt real bad......lol. Maybe just do "stock" damage to party members. As for differentiating, maybe we could come up with some stock emotes/voice-overs that could be hot-keyed to let party members know something is inbound. ("Incoming!" "Spell inbound" "Back off") Or just plain old voice chat.

Hey, I expected to receive some negative responses before I went into this, and pretty much expected it to be shelved, but the purpose succeeded. Get people to throw out ideas that may help out the dev's. In the vein of our good friend Dingo (wonder where he's been lately ), at the very least we can attempt to try to find a solution (though they may not be feasible) to our problems instead of just complaining about them.

Thanks for listening,
Borr.

[suitepotato]

Firewall isn't overpowered. It does exactly what it should. I spent my enhancements to have all elmental damage, lore, and crit %, hunted around for superior potency and superior fire & ice lore. Doing Chains of Flames I just toss out a cone of cold and kill large groups of gnolls in one hit, faster than firewall takes out undead. Maybe everything will just be immune to fire & cold next.

The problem is this is just another way the dev's act like childish GMs and just go "well my creatures are immune to that! Nyah!" anytime we use a tactic that makes a quest easier. Too bad we get the LOTR throwbacks or else they might have come up with a more unique way to make the quest harder.

Exactly true. Good quest design challenges, but does not extinguish precedent tactics and strategy.

For instance, one DM I played under invented a paint that was so enchanted as to make offensive and defensive elemental magics bounce off like a light beam against a mirror. So when we figured it out, we made sure to bounce stuff off those treated hallways to nail mobs around corners just the way they were doing to us. In DDO, enemies would get to do this to you, but you could not do it to them.

When we replayed that dungeon in a successor quest, it was not changed to nerf the tactic. Once built, the dungeon was what it was. We simply went on to another with even weirder stuff to figure out. However, once figured, that was our win, not an exploit to be fixed.

(The DM btw threw angry fire elementals freshly loosed from their bonds into the halls and let them lash out omnidirectionally randomly so as to guarantee a hard time of getting back up the complex to the evil wizard's study and a story bit that stinging from his having his stuff used against him, moderated it so it cut reflectivity of cold spells down where he could, but was pressed for time. He was an arrogant narcissist so we figured he spent the most time treating the center of each hallway wall segment where his would-be empire's seal containing his name was, and so we aimed away from there towards the edges where reflectivity was greatest.)

If cold is nerfed at CoF, or firewall at anywhere, it's just a lazy way of preventing the players from ever winning at anything and if you want to drive subscriber rates down and income into the dustbin of accounting history, well, that's how you do it. It's better to lose the sadomasochists who hang here going on about how everything is too easy unless it takes ten million plat to come within 75% of finishing before you have your eighth party wipe than the average mainstream players who are not finding dying one hundred times until they run an adventure nine levels later to be fun.

Oh yeah, great idea, let's make you have guaranteed party wipes at waterworks unless you're all uber-specced and level nine. Let's complete the doom right from the start.

[jaitee]

never seen a real blade barrier?

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=6925958

[Invalid_86]

Tell me why i would swing a second time if it was -5 to attack from the first?

The ONLY time i would do that is some easy quest where i'm hitting everytime at -15 to attack.

A simple timer would solve that. End of story. If you make a 2nd or 3rd attack within X amount of time it is at a penalty. This simple change would profoundly balance the game.

Oh and no friendly fire. While I would support it in spirit the truth is ******** players would use it to grief.

[LeLoric]

Doors may have been a better fix but also takes time to implement which means they have to shut down a quest that is needed in order to reach other quests. The fire immunities are a quicker fix and not unprecedented, they are not just plain shadows but shadows of Vol. They are beings named after and probably blessed by a diety if a diety wants its pets to be immune to fire im sure its not a huge problem for them.

[salmag]

I had always thought that DDO should have three levels.

A. Solo - obviously meant for solo play, 75% of normal XP.
B. Normal - normal play, no AoE damage for party, 100% of XP.
C. Team - closer to PnP D&D, AoE damages party, 150% XP.

Also every quest level should have repeat timers placed on them, i.e. after completing this quest you must wait 'X' number of days before repeating.

[Cruzer]

Doors may have been a better fix but also takes time to implement which means they have to shut down a quest that is needed in order to reach other quests. The fire immunities are a quicker fix and not unprecedented, they are not just plain shadows but shadows of Vol. They are beings named after and probably blessed by a diety if a diety wants its pets to be immune to fire im sure its not a huge problem for them.

My problem isn't the quest is harder now. My problem is the mentality they use in fixing this. You guys say fix like the quest was broken, which it wasn't. Its like they're surprised that our idea of doing that quest would be to train undead into a firewall.. the quest is set up optimally to DO that.

So they design a quest poorly, then try to sneak in the immunities to make them harder to fight later on. Its just stupid.

[ccheath776]

Instead of adding mobs and making them immune to firewall why didn't they just change how the doors work? Drop doors everywhere and have them lever operated. Having them close on you a few seconds after you open them(like many other quests) would make it hard to herd the mobs up. As a side note my sub runs out tonight so this will be my last post. no other games seem worth it so I'll just play PS3 until the next round of MMO's come out.

They made them immune to FIRE?!!!

[Lorien_the_First_One]

My problem isn't the quest is harder now. My problem is the mentality they use in fixing this. You guys say fix like the quest was broken, which it wasn't. Its like they're surprised that our idea of doing that quest would be to train undead into a firewall.. the quest is set up optimally to DO that.

So they design a quest poorly, then try to sneak in the immunities to make them harder to fight later on. Its just stupid.

I agree. From the first time I saw someone run the "pull" version I said "hey as a caster this is LOTS of run...so many red numbers...but it's gonna be fixed".

They needed to add better mob movement, doors or portals, or some other mechanic to stop the pull. I mean it was actually fun to run it as intended the first few times so going back to that isn't a biggie for me.

But making them immune to fire, thats low and is the classic "bad DM" move.

Oh, and for those that don't know yet, they did this in all quests for this mob... they are also fire imune in PoP now.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

AoE spells affect EVERYTHING in their Area of Effect. .

I agree, friendly fire rules would be nice.

The house rule however (unfortunatley) is we don't have FF. Honestly we probably need the extra power because of the way melee and mob HPs have both been overblown.

All those of us that are complaining are asking for is CONSISTANT house rules and not silly "no wait, he's imune" bad DM tricks.

[salmag]

I agree. From the first time I saw someone run the "pull" version I said "hey as a caster this is LOTS of run...so many red numbers...but it's gonna be fixed".

They needed to add better mob movement, doors or portals, or some other mechanic to stop the pull. I mean it was actually fun to run it as intended the first few times so going back to that isn't a biggie for me.

But making them immune to fire, thats low and is the classic "bad DM" move.

Oh, and for those that don't know yet, they did this in all quests for this mob... they are also fire imune in PoP now.

I agree. Also I posted this in a different thread but I think it applies more here, then there. I will include the sarcasm as well.

I don't understand WHY the Devs didn't just make Firewall act like a Fear effect for all mobs. Example: once the mob takes damage from the firewall it turns tail and runs. Unless they get caught against a wall or cornered, the firewall will act like it normally would in PnP, as a repellant rather than a mob killer. They could then add other "wall" spells.

*sarcasm* Oh, sorry, I forgot... There aren't any other ways to finish quests except by killing things. Ingenuity doesn't matter. My mistake.

[ccheath776]

No not leaving. I paid until next april and that is what I am doing. Turbine I am not mad at yu. We can agree to disagree on this so just take this as my own personal preference not a flame.

I have informed my guild and the people I play that I am refusing to run Any orchard quests or any of the new quests period.

They made all shadows immune to fire. To me that is something I cant endorse or understand and although it is just a game I cant accept this change at all. I cannot cannot stand this any more.

Everyone can run the orchard all they want I will pug other things or play my solo character. I just cant play quests under those conditions. If a DM did this while I played PNP I would've got up and left.
Thats what I am doing here. Even when I explained it to my wife she thought it was the most oddest thing in the world. What does that tell yu?

What does this mean, is this goodbye?
Absolutely not theres another mod coming in December I will play whatever quests come out for that and cap my character.

I have my game that I am designing and doing this just on the weekends takes away wife time eventhough she has been very supportive of my idea by giving me up to 5 - 6 hours a day saturday and Sunday to code and develop. But its obviously not what I want to do every weekend. So I will still play and be on DDO most week nights but not all of them.

I dont want people to scream Doooooom or leave the game because of me and if everyone wants to do the orchard quest. Be my guest its not up to me.

I have my wife who is getting close to due date, our first, and needs more attention so that is taking my time to.

In other words this is not me quitting. I know i have said this before but as I get more and more into my game design I am finding more and more people interested and I may even have my first sponsor!!! Yeah me. The more I market my game idea the more people are getting wide eyed and interested. I am very excited. Plus I am starting school in January to learn the gaming industry.

I still like this game, I am still a part of this game.

I am not quitting DDO just yet, it will take alot more to push me away. But At this point I just cant play quests that I do not prefer to play or feel like I am walking on eggshells because I am afraid if I try a strategy it will get nerfed. Its hard to play quests I love while all the while wondering when they will change it to the point that I do not enjoy it anymore. Its sad, it really is because I liked the Temple of VOL and the orchard but I can't play quests that are just going to be a constant reminder of changes I do not agree with. It will just make me mad and leave the game.


Im actually more interested in playing Waterworks. I liked it when the game was simple. Turbine as I said this is not a flame Just understand and respect my opinion on this that is all.

So please understand where I am coming from on this. I need to devote more game development time and family time. But I will still play ddo, just nothing in the orchard or necropolis at all.

Hail DDO and hail everyone. Luv ya to death. Not leaving just devoting time to other things.
Rockon Yall.
Cheers

[DoctorWhofan]

/signed

and the right thing to do. May be joining you on this, after I try them out.

[WilbyZ]

Yeah I am not a big fan of Mod5 either. Haven't been playing much Mod5 stuff lately, just been leveling up Lowbies and rolling new toons until the next Mod comes out.

I can't understand why some skeletons (normal trash mobs) are semi-resistant to Fire. Is this a PnP thing?

[DoctorWhofan]

Yeah I am not a big fan of Mod5 either. Haven't been playing much Mod5 stuff lately, just been leveling up Lowbies and rolling new toons until the next Mod comes out.

I can't understand why some skeletons (normal trash mobs) are semi-resistant to Fire. Is this a PnP thing?

some are, and that's ok (like Blackbones), but they are resistant, not immune.

[ccheath776]

Yeah I am not a big fan of Mod5 either. Haven't been playing much Mod5 stuff lately, just been leveling up Lowbies and rolling new toons until the next Mod comes out.

I can't understand why some skeletons (normal trash mobs) are semi-resistant to Fire. Is this a PnP thing?

Not a PNP thing. But that is not my source of disagreement. Because DDO is not PNP and that doesn't matter to me.
Its the blanket immunities that I can no longer agree with. Specially because its a let down when I know that the developers are so much better than this than to just click off a check box for immunity to fire. How long before giants are immune, then the reaver, then what is next?
How much longer and farther does this go?

Its not a flame of Mod 5 or of turbine. I actually enjoyed mod 5, right up until today. I just do not wish to play those quests because of the most recent change, that is my preference and I felt Turbine should at least understand and know why. How is a company to know if a change is popular or not if the customer base remains silent. So I am voicing my opinion in a very calm, respectful, and rational manor. that is all. If I play those quests its just going to make me mad for relatively meaningless reasons so I just wish to avoid that all together. Just me and my opinion. Turbine can take it however they wish, I am not mad. Do not hate turbine, I think as a company they are good. Its their game, they can change whatever they want with pleasure. Hard to be mad at a potential employer in an industry I am trying to break into. But I can disagree as long as I am a customer of their product. I choose not to play those quests because I disagree with that change. Nothing wrong with that. If others wish to join me in that decision so be it. If not, no problem enjoy.

Why do I disagree?
Because I think there were better solutions. Gate closing or redesign the quest rooms. Lots more could have been done. Why this? Thats my question.