Official Shadow/Wall of Fire Feedback thread. - PLEASE KEEP ALL DISCUSSION HERE.

[ccheath776]

Doors may have been a better fix but also takes time to implement which means they have to shut down a quest that is needed in order to reach other quests. The fire immunities are a quicker fix and not unprecedented, they are not just plain shadows but shadows of Vol. They are beings named after and probably blessed by a diety if a diety wants its pets to be immune to fire im sure its not a huge problem for them.

All shadows are immune to fire.

"A better fix takes time to implement" If that is the excuse they used then my response is TAKE the time to implement it. So shut down the quest. Do whatever it takes. this blanket immunities is an easy button.

[Spookydodger]

They made all shadows immune to fire. To me that is something I cant endorse or understand and although it is just a game I cant accept this change at all. I cannot cannot stand this any more.

What are you talking about?

I just went out into the orchard and krispy fried me a whole dozen to test this after reading your post.

You're talking about those guys that phase in and out, and when they die, they make a huge explosion, right?

If so, then yes, they burn just fine. You just have to wait for them to phase in. Often times this means standing still and blocking, but once they pop in, they have so few hitpoints they usually die instantly.

Am I missing something, here?

[Qzipoun]

Am I missing something, here?

Yes, they made the shadows *in the temple of vol* immune to fire.

[sheldie]

Yes, they made the shadows *in the temple of vol* immune to fire.

So not all of them, as per the OP:

They made all shadows immune to fire.

[Qzipoun]

So not all of them, as per the OP:

Well half the threads on the forums right now talk about that (the other half about the abbot ) so I guess he assumed people knew

[MTG]

/signed

I'm done with mod5 after all the farming (and im still missing 3 parts) and i have 399 flame favor now. Time to go back to the lowbie's.

[nbhs275]

from what i understand they added shadows into VOL in the middle room with the switch, and made them immune to fire. Although i agree that its cheesy to add them with fire immunity NOW, when they had the chance to do it before the mod launch most likely. The should of either

A. added tougher mobs with a pre-existing fire immunity or the ability to cast resistance spells.

B. added doors and stronger vampires so that they where actually a challege

or C. left it alone and just chalked it up as a lose and a lesson learned.

[MysticTheurge]

Look guys, and by guys I mean Devs, here's the deal. The reason people use Wall of Fire on your undead is that they suck. We mostly use it on the incorporeal undead and here's why.

You can't cast spells on them. They phase out all the time and you waste your SPs on "not a valid target." I even tried casting some spells now that I have quicken. It still doesn't work. You either spam them, wasting about 75% of them and landing the rest, which is not good for your SPs, or you just give up on spells other than persistent AoE spells.

This problem is almost equally true for everyone else. Melee characters' best option is to stand around swinging at thin air hoping to catch them when they phase back in. Ranged characters have it easiest, relatively speaking, but given the problems inherent in Ranged attacks in DDO, that's not saying much. They also suffer from some of the same issues as everyone else, what with the things disappearing right out from under your arrows.

Wall of Fire on the other hand hits them every time they phase in. It's like you custom designed it for these super-annoying crappy-ass mobs. But then you get upset that people are just Wall of Fire-ing everything. But the problem, honestly, isn't Wall of Fire. It's the phasing.

People would still Wall of Fire if they didn't phase, but we wouldn't layer them and drag them all over. We also wouldn't be quite as upset when you just made things immune to Wall of Fire because there would be other valid, useful, reasonable tactics to use against them.

I know you've justified this phasing before by saying the things are intangibly sinking into the floor, and I've fired back with several reasons why your justification is flawed. The biggest reason is the Ready action, which allows PCs to essentially hold their actions until the target appears and fire at will. This means your sink-into-the-floor tactic really just delays everyone's assault on you in D&D. It's nothing like the "I'm going to waste all your SPs and make you just stand around looking like a dumb ass" tactic that it is in DDO. Thus, quite clearly, there's a problem with your implementation of this tactic.

And all of this is on top of the already existing difficulties of incorporeal undead. It's bad enough that no one can crit them, or sneak attack them and that we all have to use our ghost touch weapons, which are generally sub par (or suffer a 50% miss chance). And there's almost no chance to hit them with an instant death effect and stop it all before it starts, since all the spells don't work and the chances of finding a ghost-touch disrupting weapon is slim-to-none. Then you add this "feature" that just wastes time, resources and patience without actually adding anything to the game. It's not fun.

Since there's pretty much no way to implement "ready an action" for a real-time game like DDO, it's time to just give up the ghost (pun intended) and get rid of the phasing that incorporeal creatures do. I'll even let you keep it on Ogre Magi and Phase Spiders (since both of them have abilities that are much closer to their implementation), but the incorporeal undead have to stop. I don't lightly ask you to do things that would just benefit the players. And I'd never do it for no reason at all. But this has always been a problem and it's just getting worse.

So here's the deal. Get rid of the phasing and I guarantee you that the majority of the complaints about how LotD sucks and the uproar about this most recent "Shadows immune to fire" change will stop. It's a tactic that's not in keeping with the D&D rules. It's a tactic that's extremely unpleasant for the players (and not in a "Aw shucks, you got me" kind of way). And it's a tactic that needs to go.

[SableShadow]

Spot on, MT, spot on.

[Big_Russ]

Brilliant post. Especially this part:

It's not fun.

Turbine has LONG abandoned the fun aspect of the game seemingly to mess over its players.

And I say "mess" to not use profanity.

[MysticTheurge]

If a DM did this while I played PNP I would've got up and left.

You: I'm going to lure them all into the Wall of Fire (which I can mysteriously stand in without taking damage).
DM: Uh.... they don't follow you?
You: Why not?
DM: Because they're not stupid.
You: But... they should. Don't they want to attack me?
DM: Not if they're just going to roast.
You: I don't get it. Well I'm just going to stand here in my Wall of Fire until they come die.
.... 20 minutes later ....
DM: Ok, they come and start attacking you, but they don't seem to be taking damage from the Wall of Fire.
You: **** this ****! I quit!

[Braegan]

Sorry you are against all the mod 5 changes. I never liked the necro chain but I am a fan of the orchard. Great quests, new and unique terrain, some great named items. I don't know about my participating in the Abbot raid until they fix it again but I am not going to stop running some really good quests. As far as the shadows, w/e Disruptor in one hand, curse spewer in the off. Problem solved and I get to feel like I helped

[Big_Russ]

As far as the shadows, w/e Disruptor in one hand, curse spewer in the off. Problem solved and I get to feel like I helped

That would be fine if A)they were not incorporeal, and B) they did not wink in and out of existence in a fraction of a second only to appear 5 to 10 seconds later.

[MysticTheurge]

B) they did not wink in and out of existence in a fraction of a second only to appear 5 to 10 seconds later.

Indeed.

[Braegan]

That would be fine if A)they were not incorporeal, and B) they did not wink in and out of existence in a fraction of a second only to appear 5 to 10 seconds later.

Well, the constant phasing is a pain, but etheral bracers fix the incorparal thing. I am sorry many are upset over these changes. I myself am upset over the raid changes. But honestly it has to be a big change (like the raid one) to bug me. Fighting incorp, phasing undead doesnt really kill it for me

[Borror0]

Well said!!

[Murderface]

Well, the constant phasing is a pain, but etheral bracers fix the incorparal thing. I am sorry many are upset over these changes. I myself am upset over the raid changes. But honestly it has to be a big change (like the raid one) to bug me. Fighting incorp, phasing undead doesnt really kill it for me

e bracers and cloudburst add wf barbwith dw unstoppable ghost buster uper lol

[Borror0]

Well, the constant phasing is a pain, but etheral bracers fix the incorparal thing. I am sorry many are upset over these changes. I myself am upset over the raid changes. But honestly it has to be a big change (like the raid one) to bug me. Fighting incorp, phasing undead doesnt really kill it for me

A metagame should not be built around an item that drops from an unpopular quest.

[Kerr]

Yeah, I posted the same thing earlier today, and agree with it. The only reason we use firewall is because undead incorporeal mobs AI sucks.

[Kraldor]

The problem with friendly fire is that most AOE damage spells hit for more HP than most characters have. The spells, enhancements, etc. are designed for the inflated HP mobs that we fight, and would just obliterate a PC.