Possible rogue based quest

[Ustice]

With the new collection tech, we should have a lot more variety in puzzles/traps (I sort of think of them together).

[Raithe]

We're exploring some options for making trapsmiths a little more useful. We want rogues to feel wanted, afterall. I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

We don't need quests designed for "making trapsmiths a little more useful" or quests that allow "rogues to feel wanted." What we need are traps that make sense and do a reasonable job of protecting whatever they are meant to protect - or traps that change the status of the inhabitants of a dungeon to "wary." Blade and elemental traps in the middle of well traveled corridors and doorways feel completely contrived, for example.

Make the traps seem real, and the rogue's role in a party becomes more real.

While naster traps mean rogues are more in demand for those specific quests I hope you consider my suggestions for speeding up trapsmithing as a way to make rogues more usefull in ALL quests. They are minor changes that IMO would make a big diffrence.

Trapsmithing used to be much faster because it didn't require buffing. Hit a spot warning, hit the search button, disable. Quick and clean. Now it is an ugly mess of 3 people run into a trap that no one can spot, equip, buff, buff, buff, boost, search, equip, disable. Get rid of all the intermediary steps and the mechanics don't have to change. Leave them in and the mechanics don't matter, it's going to be ugly regardless.

Well, on the same token, what if they required everyone in a quest to have 500hp, or 34 cha? Point being requiring a class is not a good thing.

I personaly do not like the idea of extremes - even in elite ie. the cabal chest - why should a rogue be a complete trap monkey or lock smith etc... they're much more that that. I do not see them putting in 44 str switches or 34 cha runes in elite content quests, why single out the rogue class and make them near max Search and Disable Device plus full buffs to have any chance at getting a trap box? That's crazy.

The developers shot themselves in the foot with many of the incomprehensible numbers they have bestowed on standard mobs and run-of-the-mill traps. I sometimes wonder if they might actually all be insane...

[Snike]

I agree, traps which waste a significant amount of time or resources ultimately do a better job of exhibiting a rogue's usefulness than one which poses a minor inconvenience.

Search animation is too long!!

[Zandorph]

I like the idea of optionals being required for certain parties. A good example I would give is the idea of the pit trap. Have the floor drop out (the whole floor in the room, don't leave us "rubble" to traverse the side on) and make the passage underneath follow the hall on top. Then put the only ladder up along with a switch that makes the above floor fall out (to make it even more punishing have those it falls on take damage ). When the party climbs up the ladder, they turn around and see the chest that they would have gotten if whoever didn't zerg blindly into the room and make them take the alternate route. And don't forget to make the chest worth it so people will watch where they step.

I would hope that this idea could be easily implemented if they ever get around to having random trap locations. That would teach us sword jocks to listen and stay back.

[Gratch]

In you scenario if the quest can still be completed - just much more painfully - then by all means create it. However, if the quest was just ruined by the idiot that fell through the floor then I'll have to pass.

My example and use of the word "Branching" was meant to convey that you can do it the easy rogue disabling way or you end up in the trap room and have to crawl, ladder, run through a long hallway up to the next area.

The original and changed and then hotly debated "Rogue" quest was South 1 & 2. At one point you needed a rogue to unlock the door as there was no key (or knock spell). Then they put in a key in a random location on the map. So either you have someone who can lockpick or you have to wander all over looking for the chest with the key. Same as the Ice Flensers guarding the second key.

These were good "rogue using their unlock skill" to make things easier quests. I don't want every quest to be like these, but maybe a few more. One per 20? Some that use hide/sneak, unlock, disable, bluff, etc. (I totally need to pump up my etc skill. I hear it helps with lootz.)

The 61 dc on elite Cabal for One chest... that's more about making a rogue that does one thing really really well at the cost of way too many AP's or feats.

[Kalanth]

You know, now that I think about it, you guys need to fix the NPC's in Gwylan's in a couple areas. Each time I go in there, regardless of the setting, I always let the elves trigger the force and sonic traps, then kill themselves running back through them to get to me. Don't you think that elf would realize that they just sprung a deadly trap?

[LeLoric]

How bout brain washing traps that strip sp if you run through em.

[Kalanth]

How bout brain washing traps that strip sp if you run through em.

Then all the fighters / rogues / barbarians would be unaffected (and you could make an argument that Rangers and Paladins would not be bothered as well). Brainwashing traps that dominate the character, possibly turning them into an NPC for 20 - 30 seconds would be interesting though.

[SneakThief]

As someone that plays many rogues, I like many of the suggestions.

-Speeding up search. Possibly make the speed based on the search skill (higher=faster).

-I also liked the idea of auto-finding the trap if you beat the spot DC and then beat the search DC by some number(10, 20, etc).

-Oh and making the trap brighter and flashier when found so that we dont have to go looking for it again! Love that one!

-Of course any really deadly traps that are optional and get the party access to EXTRA stuff (names, chests, etc) are great!

- I dont now about clicking on the trap to disable it, but a long time ago, some did suggest being able to hotbar tools and have those useable for both traps and locks, I liked that one.

[DSL]

We don't need quests designed for "making trapsmiths a little more useful" or quests that allow "rogues to feel wanted." What we need are traps that make sense and do a reasonable job of protecting whatever they are meant to protect - or traps that change the status of the inhabitants of a dungeon to "wary." Blade and elemental traps in the middle of well traveled corridors and doorways feel completely contrived, for example.

Make the traps seem real, and the rogue's role in a party becomes more real.

These two ideas do go hand in hand. A basic damage trap in a hallway with nothing else around ultimately does little except use up a bit of cleric SP or wand charges/potions. The best traps either work with the inhabitants or else do something more to stop interlopers than a bit of damage that's insufficient to kill anything the creatures beyond it couldn't easily kill on their own.

A few examples:

A trap that dumps intruders into a pit while archers rain arrows down from above.

A large-scale fire trap in a room full of efreeti or fire mephits, where anyone attempting to melee them must deal with the damage (while the MOBs of course are unharmed). The box would be on the other side of the room, allowing a rogue to sneak over and disable it before anything is aggro'd.

A basic "gong" trap in a hallway that alerts the next room's denizens of intruders, allowing them to buff up and start launching ranged attacks.

Trapsmithing used to be much faster because it didn't require buffing. Hit a spot warning, hit the search button, disable. Quick and clean. Now it is an ugly mess of 3 people run into a trap that no one can spot, equip, buff, buff, buff, boost, search, equip, disable. Get rid of all the intermediary steps and the mechanics don't have to change. Leave them in and the mechanics don't matter, it's going to be ugly regardless.

There is truth here: the switching around of spot/search/disable items is not only irritating, but also adds to the time involved, nevermind activating clickies! Nevertheless, I have to agree with Lorien that the disable button is basically redundant, as there is in fact no other way to "use" a trap box (unless they want to allow rogues at some point to re-arm them).

[Canuckalhead]

I've got plenty of nasty little traps lined up for you in Module 5. I hope you'll enjoy running into them!

MORE GREASE!!!

[Mercules]

I have to agree with Lorien that the disable button is basically redundant, as there is in fact no other way to "use" a trap box (unless they want to allow rogues at some point to re-arm them).

Re-arm traps? You mean like in PnP?

[Allice]

My Idea for a possible rogue based quest was more for something that allows rogues to test out there skills, and have fun. My favorite quest as a rogue is the grey moon series because of the traps on the bridge. Its a rush to run through them and take little to no damage. Honestly i love alot of the ideas here , like the one about double clicking the boxes to disarm them. I just would love to be able to go to a place and run through traps without worrying through mobs. Being that rogues have a harder time against mobs i thought this may be fun. Maybe completing the quest would not get you exp or favor but something like + X theives tools the mod depending on how well you did. And yes im very excided about the traps in mod 5, I have not had the pleasure of using my rogues in mod 4 i kinda got caught up on my cleric ;P . I have heard of this cabal trap and would really love to test my skills on it. Now that my cleric is 14 im going to remake my rogue a 32 build elf and see what i can do with her. Though she will be my 4th rogue =P. Any ways love the ideas keep them coming please i love seeing what other people would like done with the rogue class because i think out of all of them the the rogue the most entertaining.

[VonBek]

My Idea for a possible rogue based quest was more for something that allows rogues to test out there skills, and have fun.

That would be great. Adventure certainly includes sneaking, running, chasing, subterfuge and misbehaving. All of these can build tension for an in-game thrill.

[The_Rocking_Dead]

One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

It's not that you're getting less treasure because you don't have a rogue who can get at it, you're just not getting bonus treasure. There's a conceptual difference in that.


Traps serve several purposes, and there may even be some overlap depending on the trap:

1: To protect something that needs protecting, like treasure or critical objectives. The Cabal For One treasure trap is an example of this. The Spike trap in Haywire's Foundry is another.

2. To slow you down. When the enemy knows you're coming, they look for a way to give themselves more time to prepare. In the metagame sense, this helps prevent players from merely zerging through content. Good examples include the telekenesis traps in And the Dead Shall Rise, and the mines in Made to Order.

3. To keep you on your toes. These traps tend not to do a lot of damage, but they do keep you moving, which may force less organized parties into making costly mistakes. The force trap security system in The Pit stands out for this, as well do many generic randomized traps.

4. As a general "Keep Out" mechanism. Your enemies don't want you traipsing about their lairs, killing their buddies and stealing their loot. To deter you, they have traps set up where you least expect them, such as in the middle of a hallway. They tend to know where their own traps are, and how to avoid them. These traps are there simply to impede you, in the hopes that some of you will die, or otherwise be turned away. From a pure gameplay standpoint, they are meant largely to waste your resources if you don't take adequate steps to avoid them, such as bringing a rogue. A good example of this one would be the Dart trap in Hiding in Plain Sight, or the big Fire trap in Shan To Kor.



Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

[ahpook]

One of the reasons we have traps that require a super high skill to beat the DC, is to offer a reward to people who do stick with the rogue class, pump a lot of points into their skills, and keep around items that aid them in their pursuit of treasure. There aren't many of these traps in the game, and they tend to be off the beaten path. This is our way of letting those players feel special. They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

It's not that you're getting less treasure because you don't have a rogue who can get at it, you're just not getting bonus treasure. There's a conceptual difference in that.

Sounds good and I agree with your intent. But I have one nitpick if we are talking about the cabal trap. All the lairs have 3 chests (except troll ). Cabal has 3 chests, except that you need to have a very rare rogue build to get the 3rd. So, in fact, you ARE getting less compared to every other comparable quest (the gianthold lairs). And if you have a high level rogue and chose to disable all the other traps (since you have a great rogue) you in fact lose a chest and drop to 2. Except if the rogue is good enough for the all the traps except the one on that chest. Then you only get 1.

So your claim does not really apply very well to this chest. Now if this wicked trap was in the troll lair, what you say would make perfect sense.

...

Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Awesome stuff. Thanks for all your great traps and listening to us.

[VonBek]

Lastly, I hear your concerns over the search and disable actions, especially in regards to the fact that people are willing to suck up the damage to save a little time. All I can say is that I'll bring it up for discussion and we'll see if anything comes of it.

Thanks, and here's hoping.

[Snike]

They make a sacrifice to attain that level of mastery, so they get the bonus. If we didn't cater to them once in a while, they would feel like it was an absolute waste to dedicate themselves so.

Whoot! Can Perform/Bluff/Diplomacy/Tumble/Jump/Spot/Listen/Swim/Repair/Heal at 60+ mean something too?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

With the new collection tech, we should have a lot more variety in puzzles/traps (I sort of think of them together).

huh? what does picking up fungus have to do with traps and puzzels?

[Falco_Easts]

Double traps. One with a low search DC and one with high. Rogue gets warning, searches, finds low trap, disables and gives the all clear. Party goes through and bang, main trap strikes.

Barrier traps. Zergers run through and a wall comes down isolating them from the party. Could be used to trap them in a confined cell until the party finds a lever to release the door later the quest.

Main wish is random trap and box placement though.