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I'm going to wait to see the new Tree system before I give out mroe feedback.
And the only reason to keep crit rage is because of bowbarians really.
Heck, even I gave up crit rage. Mostly because I GOT SICK OF WAITING ON THE F'N PRE'S TO GET FINISHED.
I like the idea of the tree's. Its much simpler than scrolling through a list. Of course, the idea that I will have to rethink and redo not only my enhancements, but possibly my skills and feats because of changes and updates is a little scary. It would be like the last two years of development and changes to classes happening overnight, thus making all characters obsolete simultaneously.... Dooooom! :p
As a side note, while you are poking at the enhancements panel, can you take a look at the Adventures tab in the Adventures journal (the one where you can view what quests you have completed)? It was a little out of date before, but with the new bravery bonus, it could really use some love. I thought the suggestion on a few threads that we have a method to view how many times and on what difficulty we have completed a quest would be extremely useful. I know that data has to live someplace, because its tracked for xp purposes when you enter a quest.
So, what scares me here is combining 2 very different concerns into one "task". This seems a bad idea to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
I agree 100% the UI sucks. It sucks so bad it's actually a very large learning curve to people I know coming from other MMOs, without a D&D background. Changing the UI is a GREAT idea! Changing it to a tree view is a GREAT idea.
Changing the *content* of the enhancements is a questionable idea. Changing it to work more like other MMOs is NOT, IMO, a good idea. Please don't lock people into only certain builds because of the "deep tree" talent concept. The relatively "flat trees" we have now are great. So, please be careful doing this. But more importantly, don't tie this to the UI change. They are two different things! :)
Thanks for all the work and for posting.
There are some who's builds will be forever lost. For example, for those old school barbarians that never switched out Critical Rage (before PrEs were introduced), they will lose their builds forever. On the flip side, Turbine should have never allowed barbarians to keep it in the first place. They should have shut down CR entirely. There's not very many crit rage barbs left, but the ones who want to still hold onto CR will be very, very upset.
As for "Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new" this is the straw thats going to stir the drink. This is certainly treacherous waters for Turbine to be tinkering in. However I see it as Turbines biggest opportunity this year to make the largest number of people happy.
In order for Turbine to get the biggest positive bang for their buck is to promote this, very clearly, very vividly. Precisely, they need to sell this as a necessity in order to finally complete the PrEs. They can and should say they are re-balancing certain enhancements to more closely resemble D&D and even borrowed some great ideas from the DDO community itself (the ddo forums). What a moral boost if they worded it this way and actually followed through, heh?
The enhancements obviously need to be altered in order to fit in the remainder of the PrEs, as many of them were made long before the PrEs were designed. People will be crying no doubt. However, if at level 18, the final PrEs are powerful enough, it will satisfy the great majority.
They really need something BIG to offset some lousy decisions they've made in 2011... as well as the game's obvious shelf-life factor. In order for the 6 year old DDO to survive for the next 3-4 years, it will need to reinvent itself several more times. The question is can they do this without ticking off too many (more) folks in the process?
I think Big T has done a great job with skills, enhancements, and feats, and have somehow managed to translate the great majority of them well for combat purposes. This is a strength of Turbine. Prestiges on the other hand I think are a mish-moshed taped-on glue stick nailed and screwed clusterfunk.
If they sell and do this right, they will excite many, and **** off some. If they do it wrong, I'm out before those nails & screws start popping!
I am of mixed feelings.
-Ambition is a good thing. I would even go so far as to call the proposal an aggressive look at revamping enhancements. Good!
-Aggression that's out of control is worse than timidity. You don't score on 100% of the shots you don't take, but you don't score and lose possession on 100% of the shots you put harmlessly in the goalkeeper's mitts.
This feeling of concern is dramatically exacerbated by DDO's recent penchant to fire and forget content, to implement and abandon. An ambitious but flawed project after six months is just a flawed project. I'm not going to prognosticate about whether DDO can handle a flawed project of this magnitude (doom), that is pointless. I will say that of itself it is not a good idea to go on the tightrope without a net.
If the recent trend of abandoning releases is slated to continue, I would rather the staff leave well enough alone. The enhancement system works. Any massive project is going to have problems. If the recent trend doesn't change, those problems are going to be ignored, no matter how major. That would be very frustrating for everyone who uses the enhancement system.
I will be happy if, at the time this is released, each class has two full PrE's attached to it, with information as to how the third is planned to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
That having been said, when you post the thread on PrE feedback, I'll be there.
The above, however, is encouraging.
Please add something for Offensive casting clerics who are not nannybots:)
And make it affordable. . .
--besides cheaper heighten/quicken/ maximize
I'd like to see maybe something for Necro and Enchantment DCs.
The followup is certainly heartening. I'm glad to hear your intentions. But I do worry how the implementation turns out.
No offensive casting anythings need buffs right now. Well, except maybe offensive casting Rangers. The rest are more than sufficiently overpowered as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by moops
This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!
There's certainly an uneasy feeling in my stomach because they are messing with fire here. However, if Turbine has learned the biggest wants in each class' communities, this may be a very much appreciated, very excellent upgrade to the game. I'm cautiously upbeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod
And elves, drow and to a lesser extent dwarves and halflings on the AP front.
This may have been pointed out further down the thread (I've only got to this point so far!), but I can see a use for these enhancements in certain groups such as PD players and others who play by self-imposed gear limits. If your rogue can't get the best Disable gear for level unless they get lucky, for example, then being able to add a few points to the skill via enhancements is very helpful and it can be reset to something else when you do finally get the gear you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
I'd like to see more linear progressions...
I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...
I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.
(regarding 'AP spent' requirements)
I agree that there should be certain requirements - I wouldn't expect to be able to take Skill Boost IV without first taking I, II and III, for example. What makes the current system difficult is that you know what you want to take, but you can't take it until you've spent say 4 more points - but there's nothing available that you want. So you wind up having to take something that's not very useful to your character, just to meet the requirement for the enhancement you really do want. And there's no option to swap out such individual useless enhancements later. Perhaps that's something that could be added in, maybe at level 20 - the ability to switch certain enhancements that you no longer need/want without resetting the whole lot, so long as the system forbids you from removing required lower tiers or pre-reqs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenostrata
I'm eager for changes both to the UI itself and to fleshing out the enhancements available.
Definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoogroves
Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.
Redcated
Agreed. Especially if they are adding enhancements, they need to make them cost less across the board so people can keep lots of "their build" and add some of the "cool new bells & whistles" on top. Our builds should feel the same, yet be more powerful because of the "new, improved enhancements/PrEs".Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrudh
In my opi, more customization = win.
This will be the gold key. I'd prefer to see this update break a record. Id like to see it remain on the Lamma servers for a good loooooong time, and see active communication like never before between the dev and gaming communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy
Im not asking for 100% bug free, but I am hoping for 99.99% bug free. A solid effort here, and tight communication will go a long way.
Communication does seem like its really picking up on Turbines side, and for that I thank you Mad! Now for the meat & potatoes, the execution.
I'd love to see the DM heir PRE add in alternate capabilities similar to what is in the Dragonmarked book - maybe merging the Dragonmarked Heir w/ the specific DM PRCs in that book.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod
The only change I really want to see to the enhancement UI is that if I collapse something, that it should stay collapsed after I select an enhancement, instead of resetting everything to be uncollapsed. I hate having to wade through all the enhancements I don't care about each time I spend a single point.
It would also be nice to have a few more higher lever groups. For example all fighter enhancements under one branch, all rogue enhancements under one branch, all racial enhancements under one branch, etc. Selecting show unavailable on a multiclass character can otherwise be a little overwhelming.
As for changing specific enhancements, I look forward to it! I think enhancement changes are one of the easiest ways to go about balancing some of the races and classes. Enhancements add a lot of variety between builds and classes, so having more options here can only be a good idea.
In general, Halflings/Dwarves/Elves/Drow Elves need a lot of work. These classes have almost next to nothing going for them enhancement wise. It would be nice to see some tweaking of Bard enhancements as well to allow for more specialization in either melee, healing or offensive casting (though this would require some useful offensive spells as well...) instead of most bards, arguably the most versatile class in the game, having basically the same enhancements regardless other than PrE requirements.
Some other specific things I'd love to see include:
Change Life Magic and Song Magic similar to how arcane enhancements were changed to have a separate tree for each spell enhancer (Eg. arcane enhancements went from a tree for fire/cold, to a tree for fire and a tree, same should happen for divine enhancers with AP cost reduced appropriately)
Reduce cost of halfling cunning/guile and change the dependence of guile on cunning. Rogue enhancements for SA damage do not require the rogue to purchase the enhancements for SA attack, so it seems silly that the equivalent halfling enhancements are linked.
Add force/untyped enhancements for clerics as a bare minimum. FvS would be nice, but we both know FvS have enough selling points already. This would help balance out clerics.
Oh hell yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by voodoogroves
"Dragonmarks are a major part of what makes the Eberron setting interesting and distinct from the core D&D experience." - James Wyatt, the D&D Design Manager for Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D
This would be a massive overstatement in DDO terms. I think there is real potential here, for a minimal amount of dev time (in comparison to many other projects I've read about) .
Maybe checking a bit of 4e dragonmarks on the enhancement line. Eg, 4e mark of healing gives a free saving throw every time the bearer heals someone. Obviously, 4e saving throws don't exist on DDO, but the idea may be there. Something to incentive HEALERS to get the MARK OF HEALING.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod
^^^^ Doing it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
Just make sure as you change enhancements you go back and do a pass over difficulties. If many tanks take some or all of their intimidate enh lines and those vanish, intim DCs need to change to reflect that.
I'd like to see the racial weapons get a SIGNIFICANT increase over what they are now. +4 to-hit/damsge over the current +2 over a SIGNIFICANTLY lower AP cost. And honestly compared to human/helf damage boost and horc general over-poweredness that might not even be enough.
I was very annoyed that my dwarf fighter was left with no choice but to go Khopesh, it's a slap in the face for a dwarf to have to spend 12 AP to do LESS damage than if he just spends 1 feat.
I honestly find this the most exciting declared change in the "let's talk" threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
Adjusting melees to balance the game experience compared to casters and modify some particular enhancements like paladin's divine might is definetely the way to go.
Also, in my personal opinion, 10 seconds are a bit too much for a 20 seconds boost, especially for a capped toon. And i am not considering the times you click an enhancement and it does not get casted (but cooldown sometimes works anyway!).
Compared to those things a user interface is not that much worth of concerns, but if you feel it's time to renew the outdated look, i can see your point.
What to say? I am really happy you are travelling on the right road! :)
Are these upcoming changes planned for U13 or this a longer term project?Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
Are changes being considered to bring the game more in line with 4.0 d&d?
i love the idea of a revamp. i do know if anyone will get mad but maybe a tree sorta like the Rift? im not saying exactly but by doing an easy tree anyone can follow but yet gets the job done its really fun :)
all for an updated UI, the current one really is a bear to work with.
all for enhancement changes, any and all changes really. the reason I play mmos and not singleplayer rpgs is the potential for/expectation that the game I play next month will have only a passing resemblance to the one i played last year
suggestions for the weak end of monk enhancements. people who are wondering why we complain about AP progression requirements, read the first 1/2 of that post.
Actually, if this Nerf's one of Shade's barb's I doubly support this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Diyon
I don't care how many monk handwrap's it breaks, I want my PrE's!
Dragongmark Heir PrE's being smexy would be win. also, I want my scorpion wraith!
Improve Racial Enhancements for Elves/Halflings, even Dwarves (If you include Dwarven Defender PrE, you'll see crying dwarves everywhere!) WF Juggernaut so the WF meelees will stop crying.
Biggest thing is, in the name of simplifying, don't totally dumb down/kill Multi-classing options plox. How about that practiced spellcaster feat already.
I think you should start a new thread for each class and race. It'll be a lot of threads, but it'll keep feedback and info well organized.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
And the sooner those official threads start, the sooner we can start giving you focused feedback. :B
If this has already been brought out then I apologize.
But ...
Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?
It will fit much better with your idea of enhancement trees.
Might be kind of hard on the UI, and on the way we look at the game. For instance, does the three-class limit still apply when one of the classes is a Prestige class?
But you are talking about big sweeping changes already. Why not take a few steps back and think about this at the same time - it would be a much more powerful way for us to customize our characters.
Here's a thought that doesnt get brought up enough...
Prestige Enhancements should be broken away from their base classes ....
There's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. This concept is already used for Arcane Archer (All Elves can take it, regardless of class). Imagine a drwarven defender Barbarian, fortifying one of their weaknesses... for example...
If you take all the right feats or invest in all the right skills and stats, all PrEs should be available to take for any class as long as you meet the required feat/stat/skill/enhancement abilities.
This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.
The main benefit of course is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build the fighter/caster/healer/custom pimp my ride ___________ that you want to play. The other benefit I see is potentially greatly minimizing game balance issues tied to class PrE vs class PrE and minimize your headaches at the same time "this PrE is for fighters, so we need to balance that with another for paladins"...
A few random thoughts:
1 - While I believe the thought is to change the UI to more of a streamlined "can-actually-find-****" model rather than the "big honkin' list" we have now, I think it's important to reiterate many people's concerns: DO NOT MAKE ANY ALTERATIONS WHICH FORCE PLAYERS INTO CERTAIN ENHANCEMENT PATHS. DDO's variety of build options are what makes this game, more than anything. No other MMO allows me to build a raid-healing capable character which is also capable of mixing it up in melee. No other MMO allows a buffing support character to provide either crowd control or melee dps, or in some rare, heavily geared cases even able to operate as a tank. Any change which reduces the number of viable builds is bad for both long and short term player growth and retention. MMOs die because eventually they do not offer anything new to their players, and people leave.
2 - Merge identical enhancements. You did it with Improved Skill enhancements; but many classes share identical enhancements which are not compatible with each other. Others have noted that this can create incompatibilities with certain multi-class builds and PrEs. Stat enhancements, for example. Rather than having Ranger DEX and Rogue DEX, have a single 'Professional DEX' with a level requirement in Rogue or Ranger. Instead of Cleric Improved Turning and Paladin Improved Turning, have "Professional Improved Turning" with x levels of Paladin or Cleric for prerequisites.
3 - Higher-tier enhancements need to have AP costs reduced. Racial/Class Toughness IV is often not taken because it costs 4ap... compared to 1ap for tier 1. I actually like the thought of the first tier costing a bit more, while subsequent tiers are cheaper. Racial Healing Amp is horrendously expensive for the benefit of 10% on the third tier. I could go on. But in general; higher tiers should not cost 3-4x as much as the first but not provide any more benefit.
4 - Some classes need a serious looking into.
4a - Barbarians could use a bit of help, every Barbarian is the same currently. For the 'enhancement pass', may I suggest that one of DDO's most popular classes gets a second, full, PrE. I'm not picky, and I doubt anyone playing one is either, make a Ravager or Slayer, no one will complain as long as it can compare to Berserker. I might also suggest reworking Improved Damage Reduction to be 5% off the top per tier, 4 tiers. This will allow Barbarians to a) not be as squishy as they are now, increasing their lacking means of damage mitigation, and b) offset the gains that Defender Paladins and Fighters got with the upgraded Shield Mastery and Monks with Earth IV.
4b - Monks need some cost reductions for stances and strikes, and something worth spending AP on at the low level so they're not stuck taking Improved Spot for a couple of points.
4c - Paladins need a total-workover on their enhancement list; there is simply no way to take what you want and fit in useful racial enhancements like Racial Healing Amp. HotD is too expensive, AP wise, for a line which has limited value outside of a niche. Right now, the only general Paladin PrE I would consider is DoS, and that only post upgrade. KotC is nice... in specific content. As DDO grows, I hope to see plenty of non-Devil/Daemon content, which the more we get, the weaker KotC becomes. They also need a new capstone, since Artificers basically replace much of the functionality of their current one.
4d - Rangers need love as well; Tempest is border-line not worth taking; I'm on the fence as to whether the minor benefits are trumped by having 4 feats to pick something else instead are worth the trade off. Capstone isn't worth taking unless you're an AA, and Deepwood is definitely not worth taking. Outside of the FE damage/attack lines, I see nothing else the class gets to speak of really.
4e - Fighters need some work just to make their lines readable! Unlike the others, I think Fighter has a strong line of enhancements, but it's painful to even look at.
4f - All primary melee classes should have at least two tiers of healing amp. Throw us Divine players a bone. 'Course, I doubt anyone will give up their precious "DPS" for being 20% easier to heal, but that's expected. They can just sit and cry about not having anyone to hjeal them. 2ap per tier.
5 - Action boosts are a great way to give players a more active job when playing melee dps roles. However, unless you are a Horc Fighter Kensai, you only get 5-7. Even those only get what, a half-dozen more? I suggest reworking the "Extra Boost" lines into recharging boosts instead. Horc's can keep the extra boosts, since I think every class which gets an action boost also gets a class extra boosts line.
6 - Racial weapon enhancements are both too expensive, and too weak. 6ap for 2 to-hit? 6ap to 2-4 damage? To top it off, unless you are Horc and get all THF damage boosted, you're not getting boosts to the most common, high dps weapon type in-game; the Khopesh. Even for THF, the best you have now is a Greatsword. So only Horc's get bonuses there.
My suggestion is to reduce the costs, mainly on the second tiers (see #3). Add a third tier either increasing the critical range, or the multiplier on a natural 20. Perhaps both; though that may be a bit powerful. Then again, we're talking 6ap for each line (attack, damage, with each having a crit enhancement at the third tier). this would give Elven, Drow, and Dwarven melee a bump in dps with their racial weapons.
7 - Drow and Elves, more than any race (though Halflings need a cost reduction, they have good enhancements, and that falls under #3) need some help.
7a - Drow could add their SR enhancement lines back in, allowing them to actually have a higher SR than others. With Epic casters having such a high CR, I don't know where the balance would be at to have "not completely worthless in epic" and "not completely immune to spells in non-Epic".
7b - Mentioned before, by myself and others, here and elsewhere. Give Drow an exclusive racial line for INT, CHA, or DEX, rather than just DEX. This will give them a DC edge as a Sorcerer, Bard, Artificer, or Wizard.
8 - Instead of extra uses of the Dragonmarks, give them regenerating uses instead, via enhancements. Make it expensive, but it would be worth it on say a Halfling. Of course, making the rest of the marks useful and viable for all classes and not just Fighters, Wizards, Artificers, and Monks will still require work, but that's a feat pass, not enhancement pass.
9 - More PrEs!
Another random thought: if melee are to be the sustained ability sub-group, how about modifying the extra x boost lines to more along the lines of regens? Say, 5 minutes for 1 action boost for the first tier, 3 for the second. Might make that 12 and 16 points spent a bit more attractive.
Pretty much sums it up for me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy
A new UI would be great, but it has to be usable. Changing up enhancements, on the other hand...have some fixes for all the feat changes and whatever else. The sorc savant changes with the free dragon blood were very smooth- there's no reason things shouldn't go just as smooth for anything else.
No, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffhanna
I like PrEs better than PrCs.
Hi,
the weak points in the current UI is that
1) you cant plan the enchancments you need without WIKI.
2) if you toggle the checkbox that shows all enhancements, you get ALL enhancements all the race enhancements that you cant use or get anyway which is very annoying ( like all spell enhancements AA enhancements etc) . removing from view enhancements that you cant take should be first priority.
thnx
Paladins is not spelled favored souls. I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up as they are extremely powerful right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod
Maybe a PrE that is ddostore only... I can't imagine turbine making so many changes without selling something in the ddostore :pQuote:
Originally Posted by LeLoric
I concur Madfloyd the UI for enhancements is terrible and changing that makes alot of sense. The UI is so cumbersome that it makes the enhancement process less fun. Now will this tree format be very different? I do not know, but I definitely agree that the presentation of the enhancements is poor. I like your enhancement system other then its presentation so be careful where you tread on the rest. Working on class balance and prestige enhancements is exciting. I like that Turbine is investing in character development because for me it is one of the best aspects of ddo. I think this will likley be a change for the better, but reserve judgement..
Up the character slots to 22?Quote:
Originally Posted by mystafyi
this sounds great, a tree style will really help with making decisions for AP enhancements.
Oh, Palis can certainly use some more love, why not :) But, I still can build various effective palis, something Im sure you can do very good as well. Im not a big fan of FvS's palette atm. I know they are extremely powerful at end game, but anything is overly powerful in the right hands... Im also not worried about how powerful anything is if they are re-shuffling the game balance. I'd reckon that Cleric vs FvS balance will be part of the equation when they get to that part of the project.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeLoric
I may buck the odds on this one Leloric, but I favor clerics' versatility (not an intended pun:)) over FvS anyday, but thats just me. With inherently low skills, and lack of spell variety, and only one PrE, I'd like to see more options. Again, the ability to UNTIE PrEs from class would really make for some awesome new healer types.
Not to get completely off subject, but have any of you noticed that the only people COMPLAINING are people that have been dealing with the system AS IS for years????
And on to what I wanted to add...
I have to agree that the UI is very cumbersome. However, most people I know have used the external character generator, myself included, for a long time. I started using it to plan my characters a few years ago, BEFORE the change to the UI that showed all the extra AP lines. I will CONTINUE to use the character generator even if the UI is streamlined. Although it would be nice to not have to look at all the fighter kensai APs on my cleric.Quote:
Originally Posted by maddmatt70
I also have to agree that having ONE AP line for the stat enhancements makes more sense in the long run than forcing players to choose between equally valid, and expensive, options.
Agree totally. Variety is the name of the game when it comes to character creation; if there are not enough options, people will either find a way to get what they want, or go to a different game that DOES give them more variety.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod
I would be very careful in what gets changed and why. If there is no valid reason to change something, leave it alone.
Reposting something I posted somewhere else and expanding a bit. ( not telling where it was posted, it's Fight Club Material )
To expand further what I suggested... and to try to explain that we already have something tree shapped so, it mostly need to have the presentation layer tinkered with.
First some definitions :
- a Tree : something with a trunk and some branches.
- a Trunk : in our case an enhancement without any requirement.
- a Branch : an enhancement that requires a trunk or another branch.
Note that in such instances I fully expect branches at some point to require several trunks.
So in a previous post I gave a general hint of something that could be nice ( something that works like Civ Tech tree, that is you select what you want to reach and let the game points you the requisites. Note the : WORK LIKE, I want something more complex than the Civ Tree with at least 20 trunks ( base enhancement that opens the others up ).
Now to be honest the enhancement system already more or less tree based, but it's not that obvious, as the trees are reversed :
In the above example : Prayer of Life I, Divine Vitality I, Improved Turning I, Improved Heal II, Life Magic I and Charisma I are Trunks ( no requirements )Code:Improved Heal I Life Magic I Charisma I
| | |
Divine Vitality I----\ Improved Turning I Improved Heal II Life Magic II Empower Healing Charisma II
| | | | | |
Prayer of Incredible Life I<----Prayer of Life I \---->Radiant Servant I <-----------------------------------------------------/ |
| | | |
\------------------------------>Radiant Servant II <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Any you end up with a nice Radiant Servant II tree. ;)
So if you look at what could be a tree system :
Prayer of Life is a requirement for Prayer of Incredible life... So Prayer of Life is a Trunk and Prayer of Incredible Life is one of the Branches. And Radiant Servant II is a Branche from multiple trees.
Remember when they changed the group UI? nothing changed in the machanics behind the scenes but its still a bone of contention with many players (especially healers) who find it hard to read (especially mana when ki is there as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Failedlegend
Changing UI is certainly not one of the Devs strong-points if history serves us.
On specific Enhancement display issues the biggest problem I see is Fighters/Favored souls and weapon specializations, the fact each weapon is detailed gives a MASSIVE list over other classes.
On existing Enhancements Pale Master Skeleton Summon abilities need addressing. Right now they are useless AND expensive.
This will be the second overhaul of the enchancement UI system?
Not counting rebalancing or adding of enchancements, but the way we do enchancements.
It is incredibly irritating to use it as it is.
When I'm doing enchancement respecs I have to keep the character window open so I can see what I want.
Otherwise I may mess it up and have to wait to do it all over again.
It doesn't feel organized either.
It's not really "friendly" I suppose would be the word.
To the divine faith lines as enchancements themselves, there's really nothing beneficial to them except for PrE/AP progression and sucking down 6 APs that could be going to something else. I'd like to see that changed to be more useful. Right now they're all +1 to hit then some activated enchancement that costs 4 AP with a 10 minute cooldown, yet you need them for the PrE (at least for paladins, never played a cleric :p).
I don't think anyone actually uses the Bladesword Transformation, it's basically a paladin/cleric's version of Tensors Transformation to give bonuses that are not worth the penalties. I've only ever used Undying Call or Unyielding Sovereignty because they're actually useful, still not a fan of the timer though. I'd like for them to actually have a reason aside from AP and PrE progession to take them. Maybe allow paladins to increase their damage with their weapon of faith and clerics to increase their casting capabilities based on their faith?
On another note I hear a lot of people hollering about melee, yet so few only for ranged. My ranger has been my favorite character since the Titan first came out and I've adapted him the best I could so that he could fit my playstyle and still serve a purpose in game. I've found that Arcane archer was pretty much a duct tape fix, at least the way I see it anyhow. I feel that AA should be changed so that slaying arrow isn't the only choice endgame. There have been a few suggestions on AA that you could look at and brain storm. A viable Deepwood Sniper PrE too please :D
So in summary: MOAR PREs! LESS BROKEN STUFF! GOOD LUCK!
Hopefully something in this post makes sense! :D
As for the UI, I definitely agree that it is clumsy to use.
As for changes to enchantments, I see a lot of fury in future..
Few notes on the actual enchantments:
There are few Prestige classes that are definitely sub-par my list of those would mosly be: mechanic and deepwood sniper.
The different spellcasting classes have different methods of enchanting their spells, wizard/sorceror buy them by element, but bard/cleric/fvs buy in "packs". Would make sense if they were the same method.
There are also quite many enchantments where the raising cost does not make sense. Like take the racial fear resistance III for halflings. There is no way it is worth a total of 6 ap to gain +3 to resist vs. fear. So taking a close look at any of 2/4/6 and 1/2/3 and similar cost progression things might be a good idea.
And ofcourse prestige classes in general.. there seem to be a lot of half ready and missing ones. One way to do "easy fix" on the racial one would be to make them like the elven arcane archer is ranger arcane archer. Thus a drow Scorpion Wraith would be assasin, Dwarven Defender would be Stalwart Defender and so on.
+1 for pointing that out in such a nice way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavilandile
While a change in UI might be inconvenient at start, I see that a graphical representation of the enhancements will make things much easier than the current list with listed prerequisites.
Agreed about the UI and I can see it being daunting for a new player who hasn't grown up with it. I can only hope/urge that you don't, intentionally or otherwise, reduce build flexibility as this develops, as it's a major pull for the game and what keeps many people coming back after the content is no longer novel for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
I was not so much concerned with the separation of the Light/good/chaos/law lines but with the balance of the benefit versus the AP cost. Currently wiz/sorcs get +20% with 1 AP and an additional +5% with each additional AP whereas clerics get 10% to healing/negative for instance with 1 AP and it costs 2AP for an additional 10%, 3AP for the next 10%, 4AP for the last 10%. So for wiz/sorcs currently spend 7AP for +50% damage to their favorite damage spells, and clerics spend 10AP for only 40% bonus to healing/harm. Since clerics/favs souls don't really have an enormous number of damaging spells nor damage types it may possibly make sense to keep them in small groups similiar to what we have now but with adjusted AP costs like wiz/sorcs enjoy. Perhaps keep healing/negative energy together, have light/good together, and have law/chaos together. If not then so be it. Personally as a cleric, my favorite character, I'm really only concerned with healing, light, and blade barrier/destruction/implosion.... the last of which I currently get NO enhancement bonuses to whatsoever. I hope that in the future cleric/Fvs will get at least some enhancement bonus to these spells even if comparatively its not anywhere near as substantial an enhancement line as our regular ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpone
Well FvS already get bonuses to Blade Barrier damage, via their single current PrE, AoV. They get 20% to everything not covered under the smiting lines on tier 1, another 10% on tier 2. I don't know if those affect spells like Implosion or Destruction, on the damage on save parts. My sole active divine is currently on a TR run back to 20, so I can't check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelonwy
Another thing I thought of:
Clerics need a new capstone. The current one is situational at best, and one of the best situations have been removed from game as it is. One with +2 to WIS would help push them back in-line with FvS as far as DC goes. It would also mean that a 18/2 Cleric/Monk is only on par, in ocean stance, as a 20 Cleric, DC-wise. There's still plenty to speak for the 18/2 split however.
MadFloyd,
Your list of goals sounds great to me! I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Ralmeth
No the way DDO handles Prestige Classes is 1000x better than the way 3.5 handles it characters with char sheets like this 1/3/2/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1,etc. were banned from my games and before I switched over to 4e I was trying to manufacture something similar to what DDO has (this was before I knew about DDO) except it wasn't reliant on classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by geoffhanna
I'd be fine with PrEs relying completely on skills, feats and enhancements and not on class but I'm 100% against them becoming actual classes
Agreed DO NOT change the way enhancements are taken just give it a better visual representations Natean's example is great...although I'd rather it starts at the top and goes downQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natean
Add Action Boosts to that and it will also allow for alot of combinations that don't work currently ie. Battle Engineer/AssassinQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Also Human Versatility should be able to substitute any action boost pre-req and the damage boost needs to be updated (it's still only +# instead of +%)
Lastly it would be cool if you multiclass to a class with the same class ability like turning you get to continue advancing that ability so a 6Paladin/4Cleric would Turn undead like a Lvl 10 Cleric or Paladin as well as any related enhancements (ie. improved turning) your Paladin or Cleric Level would be 10 in terms of a level pre-req.
Personally I think 1/1/2/2 would suffice for the HP enhancements or even 1/1/1/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Rangers need animal companions similar to Arty constructs and ranged combat needs to be improved once this is done...make Rangers choose their combat specialization either ranged or melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
They don't really need help but they do need variation and honestly I think only PrEs could do this ie. Occult Slayer I would love playing a Barb if they were Mage Killers...less overall DPS (because your not taking frenzy) for Innate Silence-esque abilities (ie. smack with flat of blade cause bludgeoning damage and inability to cast for 5seconds) and utilities like increase speed(+5% or 10% per tier), spell evasion (works like evasion except for spells only and works in medium armor) and redcution and eventual removal of AC penalty during rageQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Yeah one of my main problems when I try to multiclass with monk or roll a pure monk is the first couple levels I find I don't even bother visiting the AP trainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I think a enhancements similar to SP increases would work but in smaller increments of course so like each tier adds 3 stable ki to your ki bar for a total of 15 at tier 5 make the first 2 tiers available @ Lvl 1 & 3 than tier 3 at 7, tier 4 at 12, tier 5 at 18.
I haven't had much experience with Paladins except my Pally Tank I play in a static group and honestly the only reason I went with Pally over Fighter is because I was making a Knight character theme wise and Paladin fit better..its also the reason I opted against an Evasion tank since that wouldn't work in heavy armor. So both Paladins and Non-Pajama Tanks need a boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I'm hoping the Tree "grows" intelligently...so only current/availble enhancements show with the option of showing unavailable branches. IOW once I take Heavy Repeater Mastery the other weapons disappear...honestly though I'd rather it get changed into Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing or Ranged instead of each weapon individually.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Also let Heal Amp effect ALL forms of healing be it Repair, Positive or NegativeQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I think more weapons should added as well (added weapons in orange)Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Dwarves - Axes, Hammers and Picks
Halflings - Thrown, Daggers and Kukri's
Warforged - Unarmed
Tinker Gnomes - Q-Staves (make it a magic boosting effect simlilar to potency), All kinds of XBows, Gnomish Hook Hammer (or Sickle)
I think it would be cool if Drow got Spell Damage Reduction working the same way that Monk Earth Stance or the Shield Mastery feats work except for spells..each tier adds 5% with 4 or 5 tiers availableQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I think Elves ability to reduce ASF should be less clunk, Also they should be able to get choose one of their Caster Level and increase it based of their other classes (Divine Classes don't count...interesting thing to add to dwarves)Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
ie.
Rank 1 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and reduces all sources of ASF by 5%
Rank 2 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 5%
Rank 3 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 10%
Rank 4 - Other Arcane Classes increase you chosen Class CL by 0.5 and Non-Caster/Hybrid Classes increase it by 0.25 while you reduce all sources of ASF by 20%
Progression would be 1/1/2/4
Personally I'd prefer if they were made a +2 Cha. -2 Con 32pt. Race and they release an Int race like Tieflings or Tinker GnomesQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I'd say at least two COMPLETED PrEs for each class w/ a general idea of what the theme of the third ones will be ie. Arty B-Engineer and Construct Master completed but while Runic master is unreleased it specialize in UMD and Rune Arms or w/eQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Also take a look at some less useful PrEs like Virtuoso, Acrobat, Mechanic, DWS,etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scraap
How about having the action boost length increase with each rank 1 (ie. Rank 1 30 seconds, rank 2 40, rank 3 50, rank 4 1 minute) and have the actions boosts regain one for ever Natural 20 which is also a confirmed crit you get.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by mystafyi
I actually LOVED the first UI and dislike the fact that they changed it againQuote:
Originally Posted by quijenoth
Heh ... those are gimps. There are plenty of deep PRC splashing folks who aren't ... but if you don't know what you're doing you're going to end up in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Failedlegend
I'd love to see non-wizard pale masters (cleric anyone?), non-sorc savants (Bard Air Savant would amuse me), etc. Care would need to be taken to ensure costs are balanced, etc. It'd rock. Some should maybe stay restricted, but others I'd love to see opened up. Kensai. Tempest.Quote:
I'd be fine with PrEs relying completely on skills, feats and enhancements and not on class but I'm 100% against them becoming actual classes
Yeah I'm not suggesting that EVERY class should be able to easily get every prestige but it should be less retricted maybe make it "Power Source" ie. Arcane, Divine, Martial, HybridQuote:
Originally Posted by voodoogroves
Those were only quick examples, ALL identical enhancements should be merged in such a fashion, both for readability and for PrE compatibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Failedlegend
Makes sense, though there's simply not too many classes with a specific ability like turning.Quote:
Lastly it would be cool if you multiclass to a class with the same class ability like turning you get to continue advancing that ability so a 6Paladin/4Cleric would Turn undead like a Lvl 10 Cleric or Paladin as well as any related enhancements (ie. improved turning) your Paladin or Cleric Level would be 10 in terms of a level pre-req.
The arty dogs are only slightly less crappy than regular summons. Take away their dual focus that they have now and they would be so far below what they are now that you may as well remove them from the game. The ONLY saving grace of the Ranger is having both full TWF and Manyshot available. Animal companions will not change this. Arguably, it will make them weaker. Ranged will not ever become a viable stand-in for melee given the devs' stance on the matter, so will remain primarily situational tactical use with Manyshot.Quote:
Rangers need animal companions similar to Arty constructs and ranged combat needs to be improved once this is done...make Rangers choose their combat specialization either ranged or melee.
Let me reiterate; making Rangers suck so bad that only completionists and Drizzt noobs would play them is NOT the way to "fix" them. They need an increase, not raping them further into worthlessness.
That's the main help I referred to; more variety. I also think they should get the %-based damage reduction because the other three main melee classes can get it far more easily than the Barbarian. While I don't think Barbarians should ever have a tanking PrE, as they are a pure DPS class, as a divine player I will not shun Barbarians becoming less squishy and easier to heal.Quote:
They don't really need help but they do need variation and honestly I think only PrEs could do this ie. Occult Slayer I would love playing a Barb if they were Mage Killers...less overall DPS (because your not taking frenzy) for Innate Silence-esque abilities (ie. smack with flat of blade cause bludgeoning damage and inability to cast for 5seconds) and utilities like increase speed(+5% or 10% per tier), spell evasion (works like evasion except for spells only and works in medium armor) and redcution and eventual removal of AC penalty during rage
Repair vs healing already has advantages over positive energy healing, as does PM Undead form "healing", and is already strong enough that outside of scroll healing a tank, they are generally overkill in all but the most dire situations. As the bulk of the games actual healing abilities are positive energy, Healing Amplification should remain unique to positive energy healing.Quote:
Also let Heal Amp effect ALL forms of healing be it Repair, Positive or Negative
Curious about why Unarmed for WF, but agreed, more weapon choices is a good thing. No gnomes though. Tinker Gnomes are Dragonlance specific critters, and all Gnomes are only good for setting on fire, loading into a catapult, and flinging into an enemy city.Quote:
I think more weapons should added as well (added weapons in orange)
Dwarves - Axes, Hammers and Picks
Halflings - Thrown, Daggers and Kukri's
Warforged - Unarmed
Tinker Gnomes - Q-Staves (make it a magic boosting effect simlilar to potency), All kinds of XBows, Gnomish Hook Hammer (or Sickle)
I think Elves ability to reduce ASF should be less clunk, Also they should be able to get choose one of their Caster Level and increase it based of their other classes (Divine Classes don't count...interesting thing to add to dwarves)
Drow stat layout is fine as is; it's matching their PnP counterpart. The problem lies in the fact that at current their stat bonuses only match Human/Helf in the end-game, they have few viable enhancements, and their penalties (not a 32pt build, -2 CON) outweigh the gains. Making them a +2 CHA/-2 CON race would kill what little of an advantage that they have now, may as well remove them then.Quote:
Personally I'd prefer if they were made a +2 Cha. -2 Con 32pt. Race and they release an Int race like Tieflings or Tinker Gnomes
Again, Tinker Gnomes are Dragonlance-specific, and like all gnomes are useful as food and little else. Except Devil Whiskey's Gnomes, which are cute. I'll sign adding Tieflings for a +2 INT race.
That would work as well. Just trying to make the boosts more useful and sustainable.Quote:
How about having the action boost length increase with each rank 1 (ie. Rank 1 30 seconds, rank 2 40, rank 3 50, rank 4 1 minute) and have the actions boosts regain one for ever Natural 20 which is also a confirmed crit you get.
Looking forward to seeing what it looks like. Hopefully these changes will balance out the power of different enhancements.
I disagree the arty consrtuct aside from a few bugs (I still maintain Arty Pets are the tiral run for familiars, animal companions,etc.) is a quite effective ally...sure he's no where near a PC Tank but honestly If they were I'd be calling for a nerf. IF you disagree well I'm guessing you just had a bad experience with a bad player.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
The only reason their dual focus is needed is because they don't have enough spells nor do they have their companions as well as the fact that ranged combat is borked overall (although a well built ranged arty can give some barbs a run for their money DPS wise) if ranged combat and animal companions were added Rangers would be OP and the separation would be required.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Warforged have the ability to alter their bodies and one of the things they can do is enhance their fists so I figured making unarmed a racial weapon for them could reflect thatQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Another thing to think for the future is when a druid shapeshifts they drop their weapons but Warforged druids can meld those to their arms so they don't lose them when they shift they don't lose the benefits
Overall I just want to see more body modding enhancements for Warforged
Good for youQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I disagree with you but thats not really the point...the point is +2 Con/-2 Str is a useless stat spread so I'd rather they have their old school stats of +2 Int...which in 3.5 is tinker gnomes +2int/Dex, -2Str/Wis. I could care less if Turbine just calls em Gnomes as long as they keep the statsQuote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
I'd really like to see an entire character planner in-game. Ron Hiler's work is fantastic and much appreciated by the community (many, many thanks Ron), but having to depend on his continued good graces, generosity, time and effort to support what has become in essence the third rail of DDO seems somewhat short-sighted of Turbine. Making the act of character creation less, for lack of a better term, clunky would lower the barrier to entry of the game as a whole and may draw new players.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadFloyd
Here's how I'd like to see the enhancements UI work:
- Include a search box so I can quickly find the enhancement I'm look for.
- When I select an enhancement that requires other enhancements, show me the requirements and the total cost. Let me easily add them all without having to find and choose them all by hand.
- In the list/tree of enhancements I've selected, make it clear which ones are requirements for other things.
- When resetting my enhancements, let me add/subtract relative to what I had before. Having to start over from scratch is a time sink.
I don't usually write on the forums, but talking about a new "re-do" of the enhancements is something that encourages me to add my 2 cents.
I think there should be 3 main branches of enhancements:
- Racial Enhancements.
- Class Specific Enhancements.
- Cross-class Enhancements.
The first one, as its name implies, is about improving some traits that each race is supposed to excel at. Bonus to abilities, racial damage/hit, or racial prestige classes should be here. You'll need to have a character level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.
The second relates to some traits only available to a certain class. Monk stances enhancements, artificer pet enhancements, prestige classes... should be here. You'll need to have a class level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.
The last one relates to traits that two or more classes share. Turning undead enhancements, skill enhancements, spell damage enhancements... should be here. You can learn one of these enhancements if the sum of all your classes that share the enhancement equals the enhancement level. For example, if "Summon Paragon Dancing Kobold I" enhancement requires Level 9, and your character is a Level 4 Bard and a Level 5 Mystic Innkeeper (and both classes share that enhancement), you should be able to learn it.
I think the cross-class enhancements will help a lot with multiclassing. For example, a cross-class enhancement for bard/artificer/wizard/sorcerer that improves your arcane caster level by 1 (max. up to character level), or just a cross-class Improved Turning so Paladin/Cleric can be HotD and Radiant Servant at the same time, or even... Cross-class Prestiges? :)
And the UI, well... I don't think it's actually so bad, but I suppose it should be a bit more clean and visual. As many people have suggested, a search enhancement tool and a enhancement planner should be nice too.
Well, that's all.
They are missing some rules on the backend that have to be addressed if you want to split of PrEs from classes (so that they are more like prestige classes). Without being able to nest criteria into OR clauses (which they can't now) you can't have 2 primary requireds.
I've not really played with FvS much but just because FvS gets a bonus to BB on its only PrE doesn't mean both cleric and FvS couldn't benefit from some spell enhancments to BB/destruction/implosion... all that would have to be done is to make sure that the PrE bonus would stack with the spell enhancement bonus should someone (whom has access to both) decide to spend the APs for both. Its of course not absolutely necessary but it would be nice seeing as how these are the damage spells clerics use quite often and must depend solely on equipment to boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Agreed about the cleric capstone. I forgot about it because its so less than useful I haven't seen a need to be a full cleric. Making the choice between getting cleric capstone or multiclass benefits actually matter... ouch. It would make me both happy and sad. If it was good enough I might have to buy a heart to get it. Happy and sad.
IMO that is how multi-classing should be; tough choices between one very effective choice and another. Not like our current situation with Clerics, where the gains of 2 Monk vastly outweigh the gains of pure Cleric. Just not having to deal with spam invites is enough of a boon for me. Most of my cleric builds that I never run past the planning stage all have a level of fighter, monk, or barbarian just to prevent spam invites... even if they're max-WIS builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aelonwy
I'm sorry, but when my arty's dog works, he's an aggro control disaster. He runs ahead, often through traps, attacking anything in sight. When he doesn't work, he basically wastes computing resources to render. They are not remotely effective. At best, when he works he usually can take a beating far beyond your typical pug melee, though he can't hold aggro, and he can't do much damage. Then again, someone has to repair his gimp butt, and since I got the repair wands and spells... No one is calling for a nerf because they're only slightly better than hireling fighters. And I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason to take doggy over a hireling. If you disagree you've never played an artificer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Failedlegend
If Artificer shipped without any dog, the class would not change whatsoever in it's capabilities. They would be essentially the same, with more effective sp from not repairing the dog.
Rangers are the least powerful melee class in the game right now. They lag behind Paladins, and significantly behind Barbarians and Fighters. Your answer to that is to make them weaker, thus ensuring that the weakest class cannot ever be considered over-powered? Rangers have had enough nerfs between Tempest being raped and TWF being made into some WoW like thing.Quote:
The only reason their dual focus is needed is because they don't have enough spells nor do they have their companions as well as the fact that ranged combat is borked overall (although a well built ranged arty can give some barbs a run for their money DPS wise) if ranged combat and animal companions were added Rangers would be OP and the separation would be required.
You seem to feel that ranged combat will be brought up to a point where it matches melee dps, and an archer can remain an archer full time. The devs have stated that they do not want to see a point in which no one melees because everyone just pulls out a bow. Ranged is already highly effective when used as intended; when tactically necessary. Running backwards while going pewpewpew in a sewer, no. Bringing down dangerous targets at safe distance very quickly, yes.
Remove their dual-focus, then remove them from the game. Just because you have an intense hatred for the Ranger class, and want it removed from the game doesn't mean they shouldn't at least try to make it on par with the other melee. I kinda liked my Ranger, and part of that was knowing I could act as the situation demanded, rather than not being able to do much other than charge everything like a Barbarian.
I don't even feel that Gnomes will add anything to the game myself. Even with +2 INT, I can't see them becoming popular for anything in particular. I doubt Turbine will do another F2P race (it's not really necessary, just improve Elves a bit to be more on par with the other F2P), and while more P2P options are desirable, they have to be desirable. I think even Kobold would gather more sales, just for the sake of novelty, than Gnomes would.Quote:
I disagree with you but thats not really the point...the point is +2 Con/-2 Str is a useless stat spread so I'd rather they have their old school stats of +2 Int...which in 3.5 is tinker gnomes +2int/Dex, -2Str/Wis. I could care less if Turbine just calls em Gnomes as long as they keep the stats
Teiflings would make sense for a +2 INT Race, and would likely sell fairly well. Just because it's edgier, be a demonic fiend! Marketing and all that. Gnome it would be "Be a garden statue! Make bad commercials for some random website!"
+1 to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Auran82
The 'must have spent 'x' action points' to access some lines needs to be lower than it is now. When AP are as tight as they are, combined with some lines that are either close to useless or super expensive - having to spent AP on things you dont want, dont need, and will not, or cannot actually use is such a waste as to be painful.
"Sure you get this ability - but it is going to cost you 1/3 of all your AP to access it - and the 20 AP spent on pre-reqs and boosting your AP total will be of no use to you. Have a nice day."
Good point - Healing +jorasco/halfling seems like a natural reason to have some kind of healing enhancement line 'healers friend' for a fleshy basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by MissMoogle
And yeah given most other races get to pick a +2 line based on their stats that get a bonus, drow get pooched by not having that - they should be given a 'pick one line' and get access to either dex/int/cha - all 3 would be overkill, or be a bit like human, and get to put 2 points into any of the 3 stats in any amount, +1 dex +1 int, +2 int, etc. Being 28 points at base drow are pretty meh otherwise.
The fact that people still keep it and refuse to reset anything on their character after several years in fact shows just the opposite - that it is overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by BattleCircle
Turbine made critical damage way too important, and way too overpowered, and we have a ton of power creep as a result of too many crit enhancements over simply base damage enhancements.
Khopesh.
Sos.
Epic Sos
Barb crit rage.
FB x3 crit damage.
Bloodstone as one of the most valuable trinkets in the game for so many years.
I remember how absurdidly OP a crit rage dual wop rapier barb was before the changes to stat damage and making epic new epic stuff mostly immune to stat damage.
The fear of the changes are that they will change so many things that a wide range of valid builds get nurfed or simply no longer work they way they were supposed to work. Worrying about a several year old OP enhancement line is not one of the worries however.
Like someone said - bragging about how great kobold cookies are is an extremely low bar of what is considered good or exciting to actual players. New changes might be good. Hope they are good. Want them to be good.
I can build you a gnome illusionist bard that would rock yer socks off, or is it my socks, or is it MadFloyds socks? You get the idea? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by azrael4h
Adding gnome IF they add the illusion based spells to the game would be off the hook, especially if it would also grant bards of all flavors more spell selections...
Another thing popped into my head about this; most games seem to prefer a graphical based skill tree approach. Whilst I understand that might be popular, I prefer text lists (although it could be better done than it is now) so a choice of design would be nice. I don't mind the tree approach but collapsing linked lists or similar would be appreciated. Irritates the hell out of me having to hover over things to see what they do.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHH.
I knew this day would come.
Mr Mad One please step away from the conversation.
Resetting the Enhancement will mean losing Crit Rage. This will completely destroy everything i just spent two years finishing.
Please please dont kill the old Crit Rage enhancement for Barbs.
Or even better - put it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by krackythehoodedone
Exactly what I JUST said to my guildie when I read Kracky's post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memnir
This would satisfy the most Barbs I believe as well. You'll always have the grievers either way.
Maybe call it the Ravager, whatever ... but yes. Give Barbs that option; auto-reset of enhancements was painful on my arcanes ... I can only imagine those folks that have been sitting on crit rage for years and how bad it will hit them in the gut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Memnir
Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrudh
We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.Quote:
Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.
In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.
It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.
Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
I really like what I'm hearing so far. Especially with Prestige Enhancements being open to all classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
awesomeQuote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
This would be great - it would be awesome if dragonmarks were mechanically useful in and of themselves. The best right now is Sentinel and not because of what it does itself, but because of how it interacts with one item.Quote:
We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.
Is this going to work the other way? Can I have a wizard-savant or a FVS Radiant Servant ... or a bard air savant boosting the sonic spells?Quote:
In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
Yes - melee needs the love and this will help the crit-ragers who are ultimately going to get hit hard otherwise.Quote:
It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. Barbarian Critical Rage, for example, isn't currently on the list, though something somewhat like it may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line. (Ravager Capstone!)
The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldin
However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.
I think this is a great idea, though I might include a slight tweak: for some builds, AP are tighter than feats, so if you could make it so that you could take the Lesser and Greater marks as either feats or enhancements, that would offer the maximum flexibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Of course, the idea that AP are tighter than feats might disappear with the enhancement pass.
But I like!
Also, I am all for making linear benefit have linear costs. If each tier of an enhancement line offers the same benefit (+1 stat at tier 1, +1 stat at tier 2, and +1 stat at tier 3, for example), then I think each tier should cost the same (using the previous example, 2 AP at tier 1, 2 AP at tier 2, and 2 AP at tier 3).
That's how I understood your original post, and I think that's fine still. Yes, PnP PrCs could be taken by any class that could meet the prereqs, but the PrC system was not without its flaws. I like the idea that PrEs are tied to a class, and the removal of the restriction of one PrE per class is going to open up some really cool builds. Kensai/Stalwart Defenders! Thief Acrobat Assassins! Shintao Henshin! Lava (earth and fire) savants! My god. DDO could be getting WILD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Oh wow. I mean, Dwarf getting Dwarven Defender...that would make dwarves one of the sickest classes...unless, of course, every race got a sick PrE (Horc could get Ravager or FB, Halfling or Drow could get Assassin, Helf could open any one PrE from their Dilly, Human could...I don't know; what about warforged? is warforged juggernaut still coming? if so, pretty pretty please make it a viable option for any class), which is more or less what you said. You didn't say get access to a sick PrE...and you should. Or, better yet, make sure that all PrEs are as sick as the others... :DQuote:
However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.
So assassin 2, mech 1 for instance to maintain the instakills with a side order of ganking those hard to reach places then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
i took what was said to mean if you had a racial that used to take it's place as a class pre that was changingQuote:
Originally Posted by Scraap
also that a 12 ftr 6 pally could now take stalwart and dos
happy about the changes except the crit rage my poor bowbarian will be useless :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifespawn
This would make me and many many others extremely happy, giddy even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
So will these be front-loaded, like the arcane damage lines are now? e.g. 10hp at first tier for Toughness enhancements, 5 per after? (just an example, no one get worked up or start comparing me to Hitler for this).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.Quote:
We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.
Nice. So We'll be seeing Kensai Defenders then? I can see melee players gaining a lot of lost ground with that, if they can slip in both PrEs.Quote:
In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
You just made Shade happy. :P For that matter, the thought of unique capstones for each PrE line makes me happy. Almost as much as more PrEs. Just please don't restrict the capstones to those PrEs. RS, for example, is extremely good, and I could see building a melee-type Cleric, but still using RS for healing rather than Warpriest. An example, but still, this falls in line with #1 of my first post.Quote:
We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.
It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.
Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
Ahh, I see. Still, that's much better than the current system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
But what will humans get I wonder? They always felt like a poor choice as far as enhancements go. No racial weapon. No racial prestige.
I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:Quote:
Originally Posted by waterboytkd
Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)
These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)
Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)Quote:
Actually, if you look, his AA/Tempest example didn't specify race. He just said that he plans on doing away with the 1 PrE per class rule. Now, my question becomes: are we still limited to 3 tiers of PrE? Let's pretend the AP were there to do it, could we take Kensai 3 and Stalwart Defender 3 on the same toon?
It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.Quote:
So will these be front-loaded
One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)Quote:
Awesome. Are you going to expand the list of powers on offer for the marks, say giving Greater Teleport to Passage-marked Humans with a certain level? Even as is, I can definitely see working in the marks more on my builds.
I like the sound of ALL OF THAT! Oooh! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
My issue with Crit Rage (and I don't have it on anyone), is that some people have had to go without changing their enhancements for years now, and for at least a few characters, their having this is rather central to their character build (bowbarians). If you don't want that to remain the case, say so, but this is going to really upset a few people. Moving it to a capstone won't help most of them.Quote:
Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
I'd love to see the ability to gain Crit Rage opened up to everyone, particularly if it can be used to make an interesting archer to add some variety, but I don't see this happening in a way that satisfies those, admittedly few, people who have held onto this with whitening knuckles.
I really like the sound of this, but how would it work for, say, a Dwarven Paladin? Would the benefits of Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender stack? Would they still lock each other out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
As far as being able to pick up multiple PrEs...I like the idea, but it looks to me like it could be unbalancing in some ways. With the addition of lowered AP costs as well, that looks even more problematic. A Kensai Stalwart would have more Str most of the time than a barbarian, in addition to probably more HP and all the other benefits of both. Do you want wizards to be able to pick up both Pale Master and Archmage as a double-necro spec (+4 to DCs)? I like the options this implies, but am a little leery of some of the results...
By the way, I posted a thread with comments and some suggestions on the AP situation for paladins here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post4249196
Sounds like an improvement. I don't thing front loading them is the best approach. I would be looking at standard increments from start to end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
I like this idea. Feats are a restricting factor on most builds and paying 1 feat for the chain of dragon mark abilities would definitely make them more accessible.Quote:
We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.
I'm a bit more l cautious on that but would have to do the wait and see. I can see OP combinations happening and if the combinations are too good it would still be restrictive in our choices. A very poor choice is pretty much the same as that choice not existing.Quote:
In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.
I would hope that is BAU. I would expect you to be doing everything you can to make it appealing. :DQuote:
We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.
On that same note, however, what you think might be appealing might not match what we think would be appealing. More information and then better feedback. ;)
That last line sound like we might see more choices in capstones, which starts off as optimistic. I think adding barb crit range into a pre profile sounded like a heck of an idea when it was mentioned earlier and I'll /sign that one.Quote:
It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.
Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.
What I wouldn't mind seeing would be sets of skill bonuses combined and have the bonus added. No one is going to want to spend AP on swim enhancement but if we had athletics enhancements, for example, that add to jump and swim and maybe something +1 Fort save it becomes a bit more attractive. Other skills that are more attractive on their own (IE UMD) are fine without the added incentive to take them.
Would Stalwart replace (effectively) Dwarven Defender?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Blade of Orien? Nonsomatic Chiurgen? I can beg if it helps get them to a commit ;-)Quote:
One of the stretch goals is to have additional acquirable abilities for the Dragonmarks. These may not make it in the initial release. (Improved Dragonmark of Healing -> Jorasco Jadehand)
Is it intentional for these to be melee-specific? Is this a psuedo-buff to melees relative to casters? Is it because everyone can swing a weapon and has HP, but only some have SP and spells?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
Does the human/half-elf ability grant access to any of the PrEs the other races get, or to any PrE?
Is that implying that Tempest will have some AP added to its prerequisites, or have some of the feats replaced with enhancement prereqs?Quote:
Yes, you can take both of those to 3. (It would take most of your action points to do so.)
Oh! Are we getting some combined skills enhancements? I'd enjoy that!Quote:
It will depend on the enhancement. Something like "Stealthy" (replacing Improved Hide and Improved Move Silently) will be +1 per rank. Certain special attacks and other bonuses are likely to be more frontloaded.
I would like to see more attention given to Paladin's smite ability through Enhancements. A tree devoted to increasing it's damage, uses, and perhaps other affects would be very neat. The current enhancements has some of this, but not really enough that smites can be a paladin's primary area of focus.
In the books I've read they were more into devices and pictures depicting halflings they have typically been armed with a crossbow. Any thoughts on mechanic instead other than assassins are more popular currently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
In eberron they are into healing and hospitality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aashrym
Except when they are into poisons and murder (Nonsomatic Chiurgen)
I'm fine with them getting Assassin.
I am absolutely loving what I'm reading Eladrin!
I would hope that Dragonmarks becomes a project in 2012. I can see it really sweetening the deal.
Boy, breaking off PrEs from classes has got to be the best news I've heard from Camp Turbine in 4+ years. I think many will enjoy it (so many more build options will become available). I'm optimistic at this point that you "will do it right".
Happy dance...
I am not a fan of this. PrEs are a specialization within your class abilities. Making an AA/tempest means you don't really choose. You should be limiting other options as you open new options within your class. What's the point of of Prestige otherwise? This would take a lot of convincing for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin
How can you be a paragon of defense (Defender) and yet a paragon of offense (Kensei)?
While most of these changes sound exciting, clearly some of the current "builds" will be broken. In other words I've spent years developing one of my builds into the ideal tank and the requirements after the changes may make my very effective toon very ineffective. There has been very little given by Turbine over the years to compensate us in any way after such a "nerf". With such "Ultimate" changes coming, will you give us all +20 GR token for each of our toons, or is this just another way to squeeze a little more money out of us to fix our own toons that are clearly going to be nerfed?
I'm not saying they all will be nerfed, just some. Clearly some will be made better.
Comments in red....the forum build gurus are gonna have a field day with these...whats the timeline of this stuff...like next update or like 2013?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin