Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Ganolyn]

You guys really need to advertise this on the log in (and possibly splash screen) pages when you get ready to do this so that people have a chance to take a screen shot of or write down their current Enhancements. Some players have altoholism and having to remember dozens of character's lists will be a chore.

[nibel]

That would be n ice, but are rangers really that under-powered vs Baraarians? I know my ranger, who is not that well equipped, and is a 28 point build, does some quite good damage

Once upon a time, rangers were the best melee around. +10 damage! Tempest II for multiple attacks. Many skills. Tons of free feats. A dwarven tempest with dual daxes was a monster. Then come the great nerf of TWF.

Everyone agrees that archery is very low DPS compared with a equally-equipped melee. And TWF rangers were nerfed. Add to it more different mobs walking around on endgame (Evil outsiders, Aberrations, Giants, Contructs, Elementals, Undeads, Monstrous Humanoids, Gnolls, Animals... everything appears on epic quests and endgame raids) diminishing the value of Favored Enemy... yep, rangers need a big revamp to be useful again. The only benefit rangers bring to most raids today is a full +5 barkskin if the tank dont have an epic seal of earth.

Paladins are in a similar condition. When Vale/Amrath were endgame, Knight of the Chalice was a no-brainer for any paladin. A paladin on Cannith quests today dont bring much more to the table than a fighter or barbarian. Even less than a ranger (most good paladin buffs are self-only). Fighters are better tanks (because they have more feats, and tanking requires a lot of feats), and barbarians are better DPS.

Obviously, that's just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Chai]

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

[dkyle]

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

Well, obviously 15-20/x6 would win, but that's not the actual comparison at hand.

For 13-20/x3 vs [15-18/x3 + 19-20/x6], the latter still wins. It's about 2 more multiples of base damage per 20 attacks.

Crit Rage is really not a good choice for any build, mechanically speaking. But it would be a shame to see it forcibly removed.

[Astraghal]

Be very careful how you go about this. It could have a more serious impact on the future of the game than anything we have seen. I cannot stress this enough. This will be a make or break thing for a lot of players.

[sirgog]

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant and thanks Voodoo for reminding me of Radiance 2 weapons), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.


Edit: Oh and I hate grandfathering in old, no-longer-available enhancements like Crit Rage.
Either it is busted and needs to be nerfed (like the stacking tomes from level cap 10 days were, if the rumor is correct), or it is fine and newer players should be able to choose it. Don't leave newer players with forever less build options than vets have.

[voodoogroves]

FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.

Radiance would even be pretty hot for its general irrestibility, plus I want to make an epic Whirlwind now.

[Xenostrata]

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

[pasterqb]

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

[nibel]

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

[Silverleafeon]

...We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work....

Nods happily!

[mourne]

I don't post often, ..... but here it goes. Since certain Dev's have started to contribute, this game has been getting more and more like WoW, other MMO's, and basically being dumbed down. This is a serious issue with many of us who play this game precisely because it is NOT LIKE the above and it requires a bit of thought to play it well.

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?

It is also getting **** discouraging to see things like this, that take a significant amount of resources from developers, being done when there is sooooooo much else that needs to be done. Why not complete the PRE's? How about fixing the bug reporting system? Or here is a novel idea!! How about making more high level content or launch some new epic version of the old content????

This is why people leave. Some of schedule significant amounts of our time to play this game. This is our enjoyment, hobby, whatever. I've been playing since launch, no breaks, dealt with every nerf/change/balance issue and here we go with another one. To say it is not a nerf, then tell folks some enhancements will change.....it is a nerf. You know it, we know it. Will you folks just quite with all this tinkering around the edges and spend some real time developing the future of this game! To spend all this time and significant amount of resources and something the game or the player base doesn't need or hasn't pestered you for for years is really mind boggeling.

This game is on the verge of becoming either completely irrelevant or something completely unique and enjoyable in the world of MMO's. Driving the development into the same UI and other things that are common everywhere else and not finishing the enhancements that are already in at the expense of content does not engender high hopes.

In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

[mrtreats]

Having played other games like WOW i think you could just do as they all do make 3 trees one for each pre that have what we MUST take and the an extra tree with the extras

[Dopey_Power]

Could we perhaps have categories for the enhancements?

For instance, say I'm working on your stereotypical halfling rogue. There are the racial enhancements, the skill enhancements, etc.
I think it would be sort of nifty if I could uncheck a box, and suddenly all of the skill point enhancements (both racial and class based) get minimized or hidden. Or, say, I pick the "Acrobat" prestige class and everything not related to it is hidden until I say otherwise. I feel that could really streamline things. Most people (IMHO) would probably like a button on their half-elves that makes arcane archer go away while they're under "show unavailable" planning out their characters. Just a thought. I'm excited to see what you guys come up with!

[Elaril]

Good. Maybe you'll decrease the relative cost of some of the enhancements. Also, and I'm only speaking for myself here, if you screw this up, I'm fairly certain that it will be the last straw for me...for at least a month...ok a week.

[sirgog]

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

This. This was why my mockup had different 'pages' for different categories of skills.

It's great that Warforged have the Brute Fighting enhancement, it's a useful build option (or it was in a previous endgame at least). It's just something I do not want to see in my way when selecting a Warforged Sorc's enhancement options.

Improved Skill enhancements could probably be merged somewhat. Spot and Listen, for example, could be combined into one enhancement that boosts both.

[BrianTheHun]

Whatever else you do, please don't take away rogue wand and scroll mastery. I've wanted this added for years, and it's finally here.

[fco-karatekid]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ ....

That would normally be me, but since 1) that UI is one of the "unfinished" things I dislike and 2) you cite augmentation to enhancements; I'm good!

Thank you, and do you have an approximate timeline?

[Primalhowl]

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?
<snip>
In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

Wow... point missed. I think you are having a bit of a reaction to the idea of a "tree" structure for enhancements (which we already have, even if it is not a visible tree structure). Just because WOW and other games do it, doesn't make it bad.

The enhancement system may not be broken, but the interface, for lack of a better term, sucks major donkey appendage. In fact, I don't think there many people who would disagree with me there.

Furthermore, the Devs have been adding and modifying enhancements with every other content release since the enhancement system was introduced. It is a messy, frankensteined system that could use some reorganization.

We've been through this process once before with enhancements, and people screamed that it was going to make the game just like WOW and the game would die. The *actual* result was a significant improvement to the game.

[smatt]

I have my fingers crossed....

BUT, I have a feelign that if you guys screw the pooch on this one MANY players will walk... After the last 6-8 months of total and compelte mess... This will be the last straw for many.....

I really do hope this goes well....