Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Angelus_dead]

It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.

Arcane Archer is probably already way too much damage.

Bow using characters need more DPS, but it should come from making bows more damaging, not buffing specific prestige specialties.

[Aelonwy]

First let me start by saying the changes to Stalwart Defender, and Defender of Siberys were one of the highlights of the game in 2011 for me. Thank you.

Some enhancement changes that IMHO have been necessary for some time:

1. Change to Halfling racial Cunning/Guile lines cost (currently 20AP) to be more fair/in balance with Half-elf rogue dilettante (6AP).

2. Change to Ranger Tempest so that a shield wand does not overshadow the benefit of a Prestige line. (This is just plain silly.) Rangers could also benefit from a short 2 tier class toughness line.

3. I don’t even know where to begin on Paladin enhancement costs but they definitely need to be tweaked a little. Divine Light, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice should all be looked at closely in terms of cost and benefit. Most paladins can only afford to take one of the above lines (with everything else that’s necessary to spend APs on as a pally) and for the majority of builds they’re actually completely ignored because the benefits just don’t measure up to the cost.

4. I would appreciate a rebalance of the Cleric/Favored Soul Spell Enhancement lines as was done to the Wizard/Sorcerers. It would be nice if there was a short maybe only 2-tier Spell Enhancement line to benefit blade barrier, destruction, implosion, etc. Whatever changes you make to Divine Light and Divine Might for pallys make sure they carry over to cleric. Please, please, please look into giving Clerics their domains.

5. All spell point lines need changed the cost-benefit ratio is ridiculous. Personally, I never take more than the first one or two, if that, because at endgame an extra 80-110 spell points doesn’t amount to much for a 10AP cost. Only seems to be truly worth it for Sorcs/Favored Souls at 150. I suggest if you wish to stick with the 1-2-3-4 cost you change the amounts to 25-35-50-70 for a total of 180 spell points. Essentially 1-25, 2-35 (10 better), 3-50 (15 better), 4-70 (20 better)… and at no time is the player receiving the same benefit as the initial investment 1AP for 25 spell points. This would work out better for the AP cost. Sorcs/FvS could have theirs go up to 210 at a full 10AP cost, say as 30-45-60-75.

6. Finally, it would be a great benefit to the players, and a selling point for drow if you changed their Racial Stat Enhancement to reflect their racial bonuses such that each player could decide to add +2 cha, +2 int, OR +2 dex via enhancements but whichever line they initially add to would imediately lockout the other two. This would work much the same as the human adaptability enhancements except that it would affix the choice to one particular stat. This would I believe greatly increase the versatality of the race. I have seen the argument that the reason they have access only to dex racial enhancement is because they are still elves but if that were the case then I would argue they should have access to AA prestige line as well. You can’t have it one way without the other.

Thank you for reading and considering this, and for opening up this topic.

[Vazok1]

I have a few suggestions of my own and a few that I liked that have been posted earlier by others

1. make it so you can type in your class combo in a box at the top of the page and filter enhancements accordingly ie, 12xx/6xx/2xx or 18/2 classes and it would remove all those you dont qualify for level wise from the ''show unavailable'' option

2. Also the Elemental Resist lines could use some attention, maybe changing it to a % so for each one you get 2% resist.

3. I'd personally like an option that when you re-set your enhancements the game would memorise what you had previously and display that in bold or with a greyed out background. with an optional filter to turn it on/off of course

4. make it so you can hover over an enhancement and see how much ap it will take to get to that point in the 'tree' from the start of said 'tree' and from where your currently up to at the point of hover. also which you need to take temporarily highlighted would be nice but i don't want to ask TOO much of you

Also these ideas i thought were very good points

Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).

Maybe swap this to a % of total, maybe 2%, 2%, 2% and 2% per tier with appropriated costs of course, or 4/1/1/1.

It would be great if some imaginative enhancements were introduced, like a way for rogues to reduce fortification, or to eliminate epic mobs immunity to attribute damage, etc. You could play with enhancements to allow some character to bypass some immunities.

maybe put the immunity thing on void strike? i guess removing immunities on attack in most part would be a big change as those are coded to not be removed i guess. so we cant fod suulo, but the void strike is coded to bypass immunity. just an idea, didn't really think this one through although i do like an idea of having the void strike do a different thing depending on which stance your in. for example, water reduces fort, earth removes immunities etc etc. i dont know if this would be better than the original method. again just an idea

p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!

good point, what's with that?

and remember to give yourselves time for changes to be made on player feedback most of the time by the time its on lamania its carved in stone unless we practically riot. more time needed.

Either way i hope this leads to new PrE's im very very much looking forward to it. however i have a small feeling my shiny new fun 12/6/2 monk is gonna end up getting the sore end of the deal here lol.

[BananaHat]

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
Are we going to see balancing for PvP?
Are we going to see a reduction in the versatility that builds are capable of?
Are we going to see a reduction in active combat?

The big thing that worries me is that I suspect that all of the changes that I wouldn't want the average punter might actually pay money for. However, revenue now does not equal a quality game. What are the priorities? Make money now? Quality game?

Oh, and what's the time frame for this?

I hope this game NEVER sees a "balance" for PvP reasons. Seriously. Making spells work differently in PvP areas, sure, whatever, who cares?

DDO has never been a PvP game and I think that is really in keeping with the spirit of DnD.


On the enhancement note, I think more options is a good thing. I hope divines get their healing/negative and alignment/light lines split, I hate paying for stuff I never use. Make it like the arcane lines.

A tree system sounds like a good step forward to just make the UI easier to deal with. Pick enhancement, scroll scroll scroll scroll, pick next enhancement, scroll scroll where is it *grumble* scroll scroll.... you get the idea...

It seems like the devs have possibly maybe finally heard the community's cries for finishing the prestige lines (or at least setting a higher priority on them). I've said it before and I'll say it again, people define their characters by their prestige lines. What are you? A spellsinger, warchanter, or virtuoso? We know you are a bard. We want to know what else you do besides singing and other buffs. Kensai or SD? Light or dark monk? AA or tempest?

Adding in and finishing the prestige lines really let's you know the true balance of the game. If you are constantly trickling them in, you have a constantly fluctuating target. Frenzied Berserker adds something like ~26% more damage for a barbarian just from the better crit multipliers, that is crazy! Factor in the other parts of the frenzy and that is quite a swing in potential DPS. (Greataxe: 19+4 equivalent hits base out of 20 swings, +6 equivalent hits from extra crit modifiers, 29/23 = ~26%) Look at the longevity the radiant servant can give to clerics, spellsinger for anyone with a blue bar, debuffing with an AoV, self-healing with a palemaster, etc etc etc.

Trying to balance the game before and after large shifts in capability seems like a poor way to do things. Set a higher priority for the prestige lines this year. Try to have at least 2 complete lines for all classes and add in the racial lines. More prestige lines means more builds for people to play, this means they stick around longer and have more fun with the game.

[Chai]

I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

Not if they leave the class level requirement in and take the AP spent requirement out.

[Barazon]

With all the bugs that Update 12 and its patches introduced, some of which are still around two months later, you want to take on something like this that is probably going to leave several classes without enhancements at all? When is the planned roll-out? I'd prefer never, but hopefully like a year from now after you have time to test it and take the time to LISTEN to the feedback and bug reports and FIX the bugs before release, instead of blindly meeting an arbitrary release date.

What are you going to do for the people who have spent 4+ years using enhancements that no longer exist, that have invested YEARS into building their toons and farming gear based around those enhancements? Or are you doing a little dance of joy that you're eliminating them without making it look like you're specifically targetting those people?

When you say "think augmentation here, not nerfs", all I see coming our way is nerfs that you're going to try to spindoctor as being cool and somehow advantageous.

[FranOhmsford]

Would it be possible to get a change to the Feat UI please?

Basically I'm talking about the fact that the only way to find out exactly which feats you've taken atm is to talk to Fred.

Can we get a checkbox to show only feats actually taken - filtering out all the free ones please.

As for enhancements: If you're changing them then please remember to sort out Drow stat enhancements - Int and Cha need to be available as well as Dex - Taking one would lock out the other two.

[Psiandron]

I think this could be a great idea, provided it's well done.

The current UI is certainly lacking and the prospect of getting the PRE's finished makes this seem an attractive piece of work.

Hey MF, you think you could break out the EtchaSketch and give us a look at what you have in mind?

While I don't think it was incumbant in MF's original statement, I'll join the call that this new system not be in any way locking. I want to be able to customize my toons as I desire. To that end, I have always thought that giving the players options on exactly what the PRE does is a good idea. For example, SLAs: instead of telling the player that he can take this one spell as an SLA, give him an option of 3-5 spells to choose from.

You mentioned possible cost adjustment, I'd really like to see that as some of the enhancements are completely out of whack in terms of their cost to relative benefit. Melees could use a little love these days and if you're going to adjust the enhancements and add/finish PREs now's a good time to start.

If you're going to make us all redo our enhancements, make sure that we are given a lot of notice before this happens. This will take some planning our part, so please keep that in mind. If this ends up being a major revamp and not just a UI reformatting, how about throwing in free feat respecing too? It'd kind of suck to have to rebuild higher level toons enhancements and not be able to take advantage of the new system because all or most of one's feats have already been spent.

TESTING!!!
This is, as you can see, a big deal to people. And if this ends up affecting how the enhancements behave in the game and not just how we access them at trainers, it's going to be a much bigger deal. Get it right! Don't 'finish' this and then plop it out on Llamaland for a 2 week preview and then shunt it to live only to find out that it's completely borked and everyone is ragequitting and then rageposting about it. Test early and often. Test on us players and test on people who have never even heard of the game. Make sure that it functions well and is understandable and doesn't explode under heavy load conditions.

That's all for now. Thanks and best of to you.

[CanuckWisdom]

Yea,

Paladin HotD: Requires: Paladin Extra Turning III, Paladin Improved Turning III, Paladin Hunter of the Dead II, and one of Bladesworn Transformation, Silver Flame Exorcism, Undying Call, Unyielding Sovereignty, Vulkoor's Avatar

Paladin KotC: Requires:... Paladin Knight of the Chalice II, and one of Bladesworn Transformation, Silver Flame Exorcism, Undying Call, Unyielding Sovereignty, Vulkoor's Avatar

I'm not comparing to DoS because there is at least one feat required, so its harder to compare.

The more I think about it, the more I think that HotD 3 is a strong PrE, but I dont think its so amazing as to warrant the difference in AP costs on what I consider an already AP 'starved' class.

I am not interested in the faith lines because of how much they cost, but thats an issue for both of the above PrE's

[somenewnoob]

I hope the melees will be getting some love!

[waterboytkd]

Here's some of my thoughts on enhancements in general:

1) AP costs are out of whack. Some are done excellently, some are...well, archaic, holdovers from darker times in this game. For example. The new Sorc/Wiz spell enhancement lines those classes picked up in U9 = cool. I like that it's 1 AP per tier always, and the increase is linear. On the flip side, Halfling Cunning/Guile = uncool. Again, linear increase, but increasing cost. It's hard to justify spending on tier 4 when it's the same benefit as tier 1, but costs 4 times as much. Also, front loading enhancement lines with that same increasing cost scheme seems bonkers. For example, Warforged Healer's Friend. For 2 AP, my wf gets +15% healing. For 4 more AP, that bonus goes up by a whopping 5%, then 5% again for 6 more AP. That's 10 AP for 10%...5 times the amount of AP for less than the original boost!

My general thought here is that I'd like to see enhancement lines with linear boosts have linear AP costs (+X = Y AP at tier 1, another +X = Y more AP at tier 2, for a total of +2X = 2Y AP). If a line had non-linear benefits, then non-linear costs could be okay. But it seems crazy that +10 hp costs 1 AP, but +40 hp costs 10 AP.

Also, PrE costs. It seems strange to me to stack the majority of AP cost on Tier 1. That tends to be the weakest tier. Maybe the intent was to discourage multiclassing with multiple PrEs, but that seems backwards to me. As has been said, one of the strengths of this game is it's true customization with characters. You build a fighter, that doesn't mean you're like other fighters, or even a fighter at heart. Again, since PrEs tend to have linear benefits, I'd like to see the AP costs for them made linear (2 AP per tier, for example).

2)Prereqs for enhancements: as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, some classes need some serious work in their early enhancements. Monk is the worst offender I'm aware of. Part of this problem is AP spent prereqs. The reason I see this as a problem is that it forces players to take garbage enhancements they don't want just to meet prerequisites. That seems bad for two reasons: first, making players do something they don't want to do is a negative play experience (and no matter how small, NPEs do build up and cause players to quit games); second, WHY ARE THERE GARBAGE ENHANCEMENTS? All enhancement choices should be desirable for at least one very common build of that class, but optimally, all enhancements available to a class should be desirable by all builds of that class. That way, players are making real choices about what they have. In my opinion, Barbarian is an offender here (not a huge Barb player, so feel free to disagree with me). It seems like there are obvious choices for a correct way to spend your AP, and anything else is just silly. That, though, might be due to only 1 PrE.

I like the suggestions of getting rid of AP spent prereqs. Keep level prereqs, but ditch the AP spent prereqs. They only serve to restrict characters on what they want to take. Also, consider that if an enhancement never sees play, that it's probably junk and not worth keeping around. Which brings me to:

Some enhancements may perish in the name progress. We're definitely not far enough along to get into that kind of specifics yet. Now is a good time to be giving us general input, though.

General input? Get rid of useless enhancements. It's hard to say what these are (some players might like Imp Swim, or Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost). Also, some currently awful enhancements could be made better just by changing some game mechanics. For example, action boosts not Damage boost or Haste boost could be made decent if Action Boosts all had separate cooldown timers (they could still share charges, then again, maybe not--why not reward players for taking multiple action boosts?). Same with monk Philosophy trees, especially the dark tree: static charge and ilk could be usable if they had separate cooldown timers, especially cooldowns independent of Touch of Death.

This also comes back to useless enhancements and prereqs. Why make junk enhancements prereqs? Why make players spend AP on stuff they don't want or need? Biggest offender in my mind: warforged divines who worship the Lord of Blades. They have to take Bladesworn Transformation just to get their PrEs. Most never even put it on their hotbar. It's sooooooooo bad.

Make prereqs something useful, change enhancements to make them useful, or make mechanics changes to make them useful. Or, as has been suggested, have different sets of prereqs for high end enhancements (you must have x1, x2, and x3, OR y1, y2, and y3).

I'm all for streamlining the UI for enhancements, but I'd be much more fired-up for it if there was a vast 'enhancement pass' that accompanied it that streamline enhancements all-together. They do need a lot of work, and as long as you're messing with em at all, might as well go the whole nine yards and give em the face lift they need and deserve.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I'd love to see each class get a section of enhancements that would focus on something besides whatever the class focuses on (dps, heals, etc.), to help that class expand its usefulness, if so desired. For example, melees could get some kind of enhancement line that could make them better at self-healing, so in non-raids, they wouldn't NEED a divine to babysit them, and maybe another enhancement line to give them more CC options to melees. Then, casters could get enhancement lines to make them better at melee (an attack bonus boost? maybe a damage boost?) so less-than-uber casters could have a legitimate fallback if they ran out of sp. Divines wouldn't need much here (clerics would need more than FvS), but more melee boosts would be decent. Also, enhancement lines like that would be a boon to multiclassers, too.

[Carpone]

1. Change to Halfling racial Cunning/Guile lines cost (currently 20AP) to be more fair/in balance with Half-elf rogue dilettante (6AP).

2. Change to Ranger Tempest so that a shield wand does not overshadow the benefit of a Prestige line. (This is just plain silly.) Rangers could also benefit from a short 2 tier class toughness line.

3. I don’t even know where to begin on Paladin enhancement costs but they definitely need to be tweaked a little. Divine Light, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice should all be looked at closely in terms of cost and benefit. Most paladins can only afford to take one of the above lines (with everything else that’s necessary to spend APs on as a pally) and for the majority of builds they’re actually completely ignored because the benefits just don’t measure up to the cost.

Agreed!

4. I would appreciate a rebalance of the Cleric/Favored Soul Spell Enhancement lines as was done to the Wizard/Sorcerers.

While my favored soul certainly benefit from this change, I don't see it happening. Dividing up the damage lines into light, good, chaos, law would just show how lacking the offensive divine spell selection is in DDO. Divine casters would go 7/6/6 in light and ignore the others. If Angel of Vengeance III or Exorcist of the Silver Flame are ever released (not holding my breath after years of waiting), then we might see some divine spell additions accompany them.

[Silverleafeon]

What about totally separating feats requirements from enhancements (including prestigue classes)?

This would give a lot more flexablity in builds.

For something that might seem totally necessary to a class (such as empowered healing for a cleric), perhaps offer it purchasable by action points or if you take the feat, you save action points?

How many Dark Monks really really want Dodge?

[squirrl811]

It seems to me that the biggest problem with the current Enhancement UI is in regards to making sure you get the right selections as prerequisites for PRE's. Although not optimal, I've never really minded the current UI for regular enhancement choices, but when I want something with complex prerequisites I end up tabbing between the game and other screens to make sure I make the right selections. Perhaps the available PRE's could be in another section of the Enhancement UI with a feature to easily reference, suggest, or auto-select the prerequisites for them.

I also like the idea of a tree structure, but it seems there is some backlash on here towards it based on experiences with other games. If the tree structure locks you into certain paths, I wouldn't be in support of it as it removes freedom to make your character the way you want to. If the tree structure is more along the lines of just displaying everything in a more logical order and I can still select whatever I want (assuming I meet the requirements), then that is something I'd like to see.

Last, new enhancement choices (and especially PRE's) as a whole would be a great way to add variety and life to the game. It would be a chance to experiment with new ideas and make characters we've dreamed of but could never quite make work.

[Hendrik]

LOVE the idea of a new Enhancement UI!!!

Like many others, I really want to see how it looks!

But one thing;

Make the UI unique to DDO! Please for all that is DDO, do not just make it a copy of Wow-like trait tree's.

[fco-karatekid]

Fixed.

DOH! What he/she said!

[fco-karatekid]

Arcane Archer is probably already way too much damage.

Bow using characters need more DPS, but it should come from making bows more damaging, not buffing specific prestige specialties.

I'd be ok with that as well - just hadn't thought of it from the other archers' perspectives, since I don't have an arti and haven't used bows with any of the other classes.

[Pwesiela]

OK, while the most distinguished Arcane Archer advocate we have in the forums is theoretically correct; I have to protest that although Arcane Archer is theoretically "complete", by no means do I think the devs should interpret that as "done".

It needs a review and augment (to quote MF) of its damage potential of ~10% to (no more than) 15%. That would keep it lower than Melee, but not have it be the middling contributor to DPS (when off manyshot) it is now.

The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

I've actually PM'd Eladrin about the AA PrE. Still trying to make him see my way.

But I don't think this is the thread to attempt to derail about ranged damage. I think we'll be getting a whole new thread on that at some point.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Can't wait. It sounds awesome and I fully agree with the opinion that it is kinda clunky and horrible to use, UI wise. The balance changes and new enhancements sounds amazing as well.

[Failedlegend]

The change (in Oct, I think) to Improved Precise Shot was a good change - inched us up a bit - but just a smidge more is still needed.

I think you mean Point Blank Shot.

Note that eladrin WAS talking about a change to IPS to give it a single target mode...actual bonus unspecified