U57 Preview 2: Imbue Overhaul

[Lynnabel]

This is bad logic. Right now, you already CAN combine Inqui synergistically with other class trees. E.g., I have an Inqui/EK right now and I get full benefit of Law on your Side alongside full benefit of Spellsword, for the AP I have invested in each.

Now that I can either run Law or Spellsword, there's no reason that the individual contributions from those two trees need to be less. Every tree should more or less contribute the same after the patch as it did before.

Yes, Spellpower scaling is better than Ranged Power scaling, even at 200%, so those Inqui die are worth more as Spellsword bonus die than they are as Law die. But you cant design Inqui with the intention that someone just uses it to boost another tree's Imbue - it has to stand alone at the same level it is now, or its a straight and undeniable nerf to Inqui, which is what everyone's been saying.

If you cant balance all the imbues relative to each other AND without nerfing them individually...then maybe you shouldn't be trying to unify all the imbues like this, maybe you just unify some of them and leave others as-is

The big difference here is that we're not just combining the imbues as they currently stand - we're putting a ton of dice out there in a huge variety of new places. If we weren't supporting the system at all with set, filigree, augments, destinies, new character abilities, spells, etc, then sure, we can aim for each tree to generally arrive at the same location. But we're not doing that, we're building an ecosystem where a player can build a strong proc from many disparate parts (the same way that players build the rest of their DPS from many disparate parts across many sources) which means that each part needs to be a small proportion of the whole.

[Stravix]

This is bad logic. Right now, you already CAN combine Inqui synergistically with other class trees. E.g., I have an Inqui/EK right now and I get full benefit of Law on your Side alongside full benefit of Spellsword, for the AP I have invested in each.

Now that I can either run Law or Spellsword, there's no reason that the individual contributions from those two trees need to be less. Every tree should more or less contribute the same after the patch as it did before.

Yes, Spellpower scaling is better than Ranged Power scaling, even at 200%, so those Inqui die are worth more as Spellsword bonus die than they are as Law die. But you cant design Inqui with the intention that someone just uses it to boost another tree's Imbue - it has to stand alone at the same level it is now, or its a straight and undeniable nerf to Inqui, which is what everyone's been saying.

If you cant balance all the imbues relative to each other AND without nerfing them individually...then maybe you shouldn't be trying to unify all the imbues like this, maybe you just unify some of them and leave others as-is

Without easy set bonus access to imbue die, I will agree with Droid here.

From the Preview 1 description of multiple legendary sets adding 3 artifact bonus imbue die, I was under the impression that with a unified system the dice would become more readily available on gear as well. 3 sets (and rarely used ones at that) is not sufficient for that goal, and the sets which have these die in them need to be expanded if these die are going to be as universal as they are.

Caster Warlocks, might want these die as you have added a way to add it to your EBs. Archers and crossbow users will want these dice, as they are in AA and inquisitive. Monks, Barbs and Pallys will want these die as well. Since most players will want these, and have had power stripped from them due to the availability of these scaling options, these options need to be readily available, not tucked away in a couple sets.

EDIT: When it comes to filigrees and feats, I will say those are nowhere close to making up that gap by themselves, as they are losing bonuses on them innately as well. The scion feats for instance, are going to be nerfed no matter the build under this new system, as 2d20 scaling with SP will always be more than +3 imbue dice, and the filigree ones require a ton of scaling to beat their current form.

Overall, I see that if you are going down this road, you really need to open up that set availability to reach a breakeven point.

[droid327]

The big difference here is that we're not just combining the imbues as they currently stand - we're putting a ton of dice out there in a huge variety of new places. If we weren't supporting the system at all with set, filigree, augments, destinies, new character abilities, spells, etc, then sure, we can aim for each tree to generally arrive at the same location. But we're not doing that, we're building an ecosystem where a player can build a strong proc from many disparate parts (the same way that players build the rest of their DPS from many disparate parts across many sources) which means that each part needs to be a small proportion of the whole.

Each one of those new sources comes with an opportunity cost, though. That's what justifies their added benefit...you arent just throwing out free imbue die anywhere (or just attaching die mostly to things people already use). Yes, you can get more Imbue die than currently, but you have to change your set, or some filigree slots, or an epic feat, or change your Destiny loadout....and that all comes with tradeoffs.

The trees themselves merely need to reflect the same value for the opportunity cost that we already have invested in them.

If you balance the trees downward, assuming that people will make up the difference with the new sources, then you're pigeonholing them and forcing them to pay a higher opportunity cost to maintain the same level of efficacy. That's a nerf, no two ways about it

[Mindos]

which means that each part needs to be a small proportion of the whole.

we need something in the fifth core or so of universal trees: The more AP you spend in this tree the greater the damage/dice/power or something.

[Abilbo]

Imbues being able to crit kind of breaks them.
On live Assassin Rogues and EKs are like, two of the top 5 dps builds without sneak attack dice or imbues critting.
The game does not need damage creep that severe.

The reason why Crits are important to the imbues is that without them, in higher reaper, your damage becomes insignificant.

People build characters for the most part 3 different ways.

1) to level and gain a past life. Normally optimized for speed.
2) for end game. can often make leveling in heroic a bit slower, but it's a build that will be great at end game.
3) for flavor. Maybe you want to play a small shield build, go for it, have fun.

Currently, I have an alchemist shooter on live, using Inquis and VC to add supplemental damage. This is not an end game character, doesn't have completionist in anything, its just a character I got to 30 and he stays there, if my main is off leveling, and I want to participate in casual raids with the guild there he sits, ready to go. I recently ran into a R10 quest with some guild people who wanted to play, and this was the only capped character that i could play. This character, even not fully maximized can hit 7-8K crits in R10 using his big damage clicks. His poison imbue become almost insignificant.

My main character on Lamania, with the gear set that i built in just a few hours, was over 900 SP and boosting to over 1100 in reaper, was able to get 8K hits in town, while using bosots. In reaper, those numbers were in the low 100 range. Because i focued on imbues, and not RP, my crits for my base damage never got very high, i think the highest I saw was about 2K.

This isn't the definition of power creep.

There will always be those players, you can call them the elitist or the min maxers, it doesnt matter, there will always be that group of people who find a way to tweak the system just enough, to be able to pull off amazing things, hooray for them. For the average player, which I am probably one of, losing DPS is bad. I don't know what crits are now for spells/melee/ranged, by which i mean that I dont know what multiplier is used, but with a multiplier of 0 imbue damage in higher reaper is bad.

With all that being said, I don't have to agree with the changes, or even like the changes. I like the game, and I will find a way to adapt, and keep playing. I just don't see myself playing a build that relies upon imbues for end game content.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

One other thing I should mention that was brought to my attention here but I can't find a post about to quote is that certain Filigree sets are getting a slight boost - set bonuses that gave an on-hit proc and just that proc (so not the ones that also give 50 spellpower) will be raised to +2 imbue dice from +1. For notation's sake, these set bonuses are the ones that are affected: Electrocution 3, Long Shadow 3, Snake Bite 3, Beast Mantle 4, and Reverberation 2.

Other (not so misty as yours) words, all these filigree set just be nerfed at 16d6 appropriate damage. For me, it's seems as huge unnecessary irreplaceable loss, it's all.

[sunseeker]

"Fire of Fury" is still using the old attack and effect of "Silence the Wicked". It is currently not a toggle.
The Tiefling "Bloodhunt, improved/greater now do less as the enhancement progresses.

Bloodhunt is 1d4 fire at 75%
Improved is 1d6 at 50%
Greater is 1d8 at 25%

In the current lama preview if you have Greater Bloodhunt you do not see any damage until a target has reached 25% HP.

[droid327]

Other (not so misty as yours) words, all these filigree set just be nerfed at 16d6 appropriate damage. For me, it's seems as huge unnecessary irreplaceable loss, it's all.

4d6 at 20 to 2d8, you need 55 spell power to break even. So it'slikely a buff there

16d6 at 32, you need 522 spell power...which is a tougher mark to hit if you aren't a caster class

[Lynnabel]

"Fire of Fury" is still using the old attack and effect of "Silence the Wicked". It is currently not a toggle.
The Tiefling "Bloodhunt, improved/greater now do less as the enhancement progresses.

Bloodhunt is 1d4 fire at 75%
Improved is 1d6 at 50%
Greater is 1d8 at 25%

In the current lama preview if you have Greater Bloodhunt you do not see any damage until a target has reached 25% HP.

Both of these have been fixed!

[Stravix]

One other thing I should mention that was brought to my attention here but I can't find a post about to quote is that certain Filigree sets are getting a slight boost - set bonuses that gave an on-hit proc and just that proc (so not the ones that also give 50 spellpower) will be raised to +2 imbue dice from +1. For notation's sake, these set bonuses are the ones that are affected: Electrocution 3, Long Shadow 3, Snake Bite 3, Beast Mantle 4, and Reverberation 2.

Ooh, hadn't noticed this. This is a great change! Any chance we could have additional sets get the dice as well though? Right now, inquisitive needs around 3 bonus die added without tradeoff to breakeven with live, and set bonuses seem perfect for that. They are, however, too restricted in which sets get them atm.

[droid327]

Ooh, hadn't noticed this. This is a great change! Any chance we could have additional sets get the dice as well though? Right now, inquisitive needs around 3 bonus die added without tradeoff to breakeven with live, and set bonuses seem perfect for that. They are, however, too restricted in which sets get them atm.

Which, for inqui, pretty much means wallwatch or go home

[Stravix]

Which, for inqui, pretty much means wallwatch or go home

Yeah, exactly.


Like what is a Henshin Mystic and Sacred Fist supposed to wear, Walking Ancestor with all those spell bonuses and wizardry and no melee power? Profane Set with it's bonuses to INT, USP and also no melee power?

How about a paladin or Dark Apostate? What heavy armor options with imbue dice are available?

Are all inquisitive supposed to have medium armor proficiency for Crypt raider (barring all the other issues with forcing that set)?

Right now it is far too restrictive considering how many builds will need to have some to break even as of current.

It's ok to reduce the overall base power level when you introduce scaling, but you need that scaling to be accessible if you do, otherwise it is a notable nerf.

[Duckology]

we're building an ecosystem where a player can build a strong proc from many disparate parts (the same way that players build the rest of their DPS from many disparate parts across many sources) which means that each part needs to be a small proportion of the whole.

This ignores entirely that many of the ranged enhancements doubleshot/fort bypass in particular are only available in the tier 4/5 and core 5 sections. To get to those you can't splash a little in many different trees. Adding extra imbue die to the tier 5 inquisitive core would solve the issue that this update is going to impose.

As the update stands I will go from being able to cautiously play on reaper 4 looking and rerolling for mythic/reaper bonus upgrades to gear... to not being able to do that unless I'm lucky enough to find a group of sorcerers/warlocks who are zerging reaper 8 that I can follow around lowering my arms for 3 seconds while they clear the room so I can then loot the chest....

[Aelonwy]

Each one of those new sources comes with an opportunity cost, though. That's what justifies their added benefit...you arent just throwing out free imbue die anywhere (or just attaching die mostly to things people already use). Yes, you can get more Imbue die than currently, but you have to change your set, or some filigree slots, or an epic feat, or change your Destiny loadout....and that all comes with tradeoffs.

The trees themselves merely need to reflect the same value for the opportunity cost that we already have invested in them.

If you balance the trees downward, assuming that people will make up the difference with the new sources, then you're pigeonholing them and forcing them to pay a higher opportunity cost to maintain the same level of efficacy. That's a nerf, no two ways about it

this^!

And you are ignoring how much you are affecting HEROICS especially where we do NOT have massive amounts of ranged power, access to filigree or epic feats with extra dice. Look, bringing up my paladin10/rog10 Inq again, the one I mentioned in the first preview. I had already spent her AP to get the most I could from Inq, and KotC so she had law damage and extra light damage. Now? the light damage is lost and those dice may or may not just barely make up for the losses to Inq with the RP scaling change but doubtful in heroic. The trade-offs for spending the AP in Inq & Kotc had already been chosen... now? now what? look at turning my ranged Law and Order paladin in to some quasi-multi-mutt eating the cost of a heart to make up for your nerfs? Even if I just respec my enhancements to attempt to make up dice elsewhere I WOULD ABSOLUTELY HAVE to give up enhancements I liked and enjoyed to get back lost damage. This isn't about min-maxing to improve my character...I like her just the way she is on live, this is about being forced to change my character to get her back to this stage while you nerf Inq AGAIN.

[Xezom]

this^!

And you are ignoring how much you are affecting HEROICS especially where we do NOT have massive amounts of ranged power, access to filigree or epic feats with extra dice. Look, bringing up my paladin10/rog10 Inq again, the one I mentioned in the first preview. I had already spent her AP to get the most I could from Inq, and KotC so she had law damage and extra light damage. Now? the light damage is lost and those dice may or may not just barely make up for the losses to Inq with the RP scaling change but doubtful in heroic. The trade-offs for spending the AP in Inq & Kotc had already been chosen... now? now what? look at turning my ranged Law and Order paladin in to some quasi-multi-mutt eating the cost of a heart to make up for your nerfs? Even if I just respec my enhancements to attempt to make up dice elsewhere I WOULD ABSOLUTELY HAVE to give up enhancements I liked and enjoyed to get back lost damage. This isn't about min-maxing to improve my character...I like her just the way she is on live, this is about being forced to change my character to get her back to this stage while you nerf Inq AGAIN.

I'm going to echo in here.

Creating a system with more opportunity to build upon imbues by adding power from other sources you WOULDN"T normally have considered: GOOD CHANGE. Increases potential build options and diversity
Making said system with the expectation that you MUST use those sources to gain the same amount of power as you are currently able to acquire on live: BAD CHANGE. Directly nerfs live builds that are already min/maxed based on the current iteration, which Lynn has specifically said is weaker as a stand alone

With inquisitive, even though we are adjusting the ranged power scaling of the base imbue to 200% scaling (up from 150%), I feel like I should clarify that with the Inq tree (or any other tree for that matter) we are specifically not trying to recreate the current exact numbers as they stand today. The intention is for multiple parts of your character's build to be able to group together and build each other up. That's why we're worried about setting Inq to the exact same numbers as they were before - because now, a ton of other stuff can feed into that particular section. For an overhaul that ties a bunch of disparate stuff together we need to be extra sure that individual parts are not too strong since it all interacts together.

The problem with this line of thought is that it assumes that current live builds are not using multiple parts of their character builds to group together and build each other up, and suggests that this Imbue overhaul fixes that. This is simply not true. Speed Chip procs especially with multi hit weapons (Inquis Double shooter and Arty repeaters) are a fully flushed out and well planned way of playing those builds. These overhaul changes pigeonhole those characters into using fewer of those chip options. Additionally, in the case of inquisitive, it ALSO requires you to take one of two options:

1) Either build the same as you currently are on live and take a loss. There is no arguing that they will be of equal strength with Law on Your Side. Even with the other sources becoming imbue dice, it will take 2-3 of those to get the same power out of LOYS as you currently have on live. This means that IF you are taking a chip course from another place that with this overhaul is becoming imbue dice, the first 2-3 of those are being eaten by the inquis nerf. No matter how you slice it, it is weaker since those dice are now lost to simply recover the power from LOYS, not to mention that they no long also apply their additional effects. Even if you get LOYS back to where it is on live, you are still losing out on something that you already have on live with this overhaul, and that is WRONG. Period. Overhauls should not nerf existing builds in the off chance that it over tunes new ones. This is a case of the new shiny getting the advantage over the old established, and it's hyper frustrating for longstanding and existing players with established builds.

2) Second option is that you have to alter your build to to try to force in enough dice to compensate for the loss of power in LOYS by picking up enough imbue dice that you are not currently getting (including that skills you are already taking that are being converted to imbue since 2-3 of those are considered just break evens). This both raises the AP cost AND the opportunity cost of a build to get back up to the power levels they were before. This results in a loss of other interesting choices that players are already using simply because this overhaul FORCES certain builds (inquis specifically) to invest more heavily into the new imbue overhaul than other classes/set-ups.

Either way route you take, Inquis is getting nerfed. You can avoid saying the word all you want, but saying that you're afraid to give them the exact same numbers in favor of lower numbers is a nerf. Don't do that. Players hate it when overhauls like this cost them the fun that they are currently having for the "opportunity" to build something else that may be potentially fun. This rule applies to ALL overhauls not just this one. An overhaul should not hurt existing characters. Overhauls should at the very minimum result in a 1 to 1 power exchange for existing builds, and encourage new set-ups that might even be stronger albeit different than existing one.

Even with the addition of augments, sets, filigrees, etc. that may increase imbue dice, there is still an opportunity cost for exisiting characters. If the balance is now around picking up those new shinies, characters will have to alter their existing builds to acquire the same power. A lot of people put a lot of time and careful planning into their characters, planning out everything down to the last augment slot. If those additions and new Imbue sources do not allow a character to retain their current set up while also picking up those dice that are needed to overcome the power down built in to compensate for their addition, they are taking a loss. There is no two ways about it.

As my running buddy has said from our testing on Lamannia, this feels like another one of those change for change sake overhauls that messes with existing builds. I try not to be too much of a downer or overly negative. I try to give balanced feedback with legitimately thought out suggestions on how I'd adjust something. But I'm going to say that these changes fell like a if-it's-not-broke-we'll-fix-that kind of change. I'm not saying that the overhaul won't benefit ANY character. Far from. Elf AA-DA silver flame Archer is going to be stupid strong with this overhaul, but that's a new build (only one major patch cycle old), and it's coming at the expense of an old build (inquis).

[Phoenicis]

8<SNIP>8

Either way route you take, Inquis is getting nerfed. You can avoid saying the word all you want, but saying that you're afraid to give them the exact same numbers in favor of lower numbers is a nerf. Don't do that. Players hate it when overhauls like this cost them the fun that they are currently having for the "opportunity" to build something else that may be potentially fun. This rule applies to ALL overhauls not just this one. An overhaul should not hurt existing characters. Overhauls should at the very minimum result in a 1 to 1 power exchange for existing builds, and encourage new set-ups that might even be stronger albeit different than existing one.

As my running buddy has said from our testing on Lamannia, this feels like another one of those change for change sake overhauls that messes with existing builds. I try not to be too much of a downer or overly negative. I try to give balanced feedback with legitimately thought out suggestions on how I'd adjust something. But I'm going to say that these changes fell like a if-it's-not-broke-we'll-fix-that kind of change. I'm not saying that the overhaul won't benefit ANY character. Far from. Elf AA-DA silver flame Archer is going to be stupid strong with this overhaul, but that's a new build (only one major patch cycle old), and it's coming at the expense of an old build (inquis).

This is the point I tried, and failed, to make in the first thread. If I don't rebuild my character I am weaker than I was. That's a straight nerf. It doesn't matter if the opportunity to make different choices exists to end up with more DPS. Making those choices requires that I lose something I currently have. Still a nerf. Even if I end up with more DPS, I've had to lose something I currently have. That is a nerf.

When you add that nearly all the additional dice come in epics (filagrees, sets, epic/destiny feats) heroics are getting nerfed hard.

[Xgya]

This is kind of compounded by the ranged power increase - no matter what your current ranged power is, ranged power matters 33% more than it did before by changing the scaling from 1.5 to 2.0, so gaining bonus dice means more than it did before this change.

For level 18 Heroic Inquis, that as a baseline gain 20 Ranged power, that 20 is now worth 33% more.

So, a bit over 5% more damage per die. At the cost of 30% of its dice.

There ARE other sources of standing Ranged Power in heroics (Mythic and set bonuses - that's almost the totality of available ranged power to a T5 Inqui). None of them ever compensate for the loss.

That there might be ways they can choose to change the way they spent their AP to gain back some of the power lost doesn't make it not a nerf. It just *might* not make it an outright damage nerf. (it probably will, just not an outright nerf to Law)
Say, if an Inquisitive's extra APs went towards getting more Sneak Attack dice. (that's where my extra APs as an Inquisitive used to go) Now they go towards Imbue dice.
Or if an Inquisitive's extra APs went towards survivability, say, extra PRR/MRR/Dodge? Now they go towards Imbue dice.
And both of those happen ONLY to keep Law up to par with what it was before. Heck, with a few adjustments, it might even make Law stronger than it was. But it won't give them that Dodge back. Or that nice set of Sneak Attack dice.

Saying that you can potentially get back what was lost isn't false.
You can get it back BY LOSING OUT SOMEWHERE ELSE.
There just isn't a way to look at this that doesn't look like a nerf to Inquisitives.

[Lynnabel]

This is the point I tried, and failed, to make in the first thread. If I don't rebuild my character I am weaker than I was. That's a straight nerf. It doesn't matter if the opportunity to make different choices exists to end up with more DPS. Making those choices requires that I lose something I currently have. Still a nerf. Even if I end up with more DPS, I've had to lose something I currently have. That is a nerf.

When you add that nearly all the additional dice come in epics (filagrees, sets, epic/destiny feats) heroics are getting nerfed hard.

2 quick points:

point 1 is that the dice that are being adjusted for Inq are concentrated in cores 18 and 20 so saying this is about heroics isn't quite accurate. You are indeed down 1 dice from levels 12 to 17 but that's more than made up for with the ranged power scaling and point 2, which is as follows:

point 2 is that due in part to the passionate feedback in this thread we're going to nudge the dice scaling for Inq a bit (moving up from 1d8 to 1d10) so you'll actually be a little stronger in heroics.

Should be a nice boost :) As a reminder plz keep feedback civil or we can't really have a fun discussion :P

[Phoenicis]

8<SNIP>8
As a reminder plz keep feedback civil or we can't really have a fun discussion :P

If I came across as rude/uncivil I apologize. It wasn't my intention.

[Lynnabel]

If I came across as rude/uncivil I apologize. It wasn't my intention.

Not to worry, it was just a general reminder