U57 Preview 2: Imbue Overhaul

[Lynnabel]

No.

Text says something else.



And effect does not work.

Whoops, you're right.

[Talnar00]

KoTC doesn't grant Embodiment of Law or Arborea.

So KoTC doesn't "get" anything by giving up what it used to have to other feats, a particular build that takes those feats might, but KoTC is still worse for the exchange.

Small adjustments like this don't make a big difference on their own, but over time they can create build paths that are objectively the best and reduce build diversity rather than increasing it.

Fair the trees themselves don't grant those, but I still don't see how the change to embodiment of law that the person I quoted was talking about is a massive nerf to KoTC and Sacred Fist.
Sacred Fist is keeping the same amount of dice in their tree, KoTC loses a single d6. Even with the change to embodiment of law to not have the flat bane and law damage, both these classes get +2 imbue dice to their imbues if they either take the feat, or go T5 in Divine Crusader (like the original person I quoted seemed to imply), since they are forced lawful.

[droid327]

I'm able to have both Law on your Side and Spellsword active at the same time, and both seem to be working and benefiting from my 14 imbue die

[Monkey_Archer]

Perhaps beyond the scope of this update, but I feel like monk elemental ki strikes should also scale with imbue dice.

[Aelonwy]

I don't have time to read the whole thread or test much but I brought several characters, including my artificier, over to check out Imbue on her and when I cast Greater Elemental weapons the spell text says +2 imbue die but the buff on the main screen said I cast regular elemental weapons +1 imbue die (i don't even have regular elemental weapons prepared) AND it doesn't change anything on the + tab of the character screen so I'm not sure what is going on.

[GelatinousCubist]

Sorcerer:

• (Eldritch Knight Core 2) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements)
• (EK Core 2) +1 Dice per 3 Sorcerer levels, max 6
• (EK Core 4) +1 Dice (replaces dice step change)
• (EK Core 5) +1 Dice (replaces dice step change)
• (EK Core 6) +2 Dice (replaces dice step change) + the proc for +4 temporary dice

Wizard:

• (Eldritch Knight Core 2) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements)
• (EK Core 2) +1 Dice per 3 Wizard levels, max 6
• (EK Core 4) +1 Dice (replaces dice step change)
• (EK Core 5) +1 Dice (replaces dice step change)
• (EK Core 6) +2 Dice (replaces dice step change) + the proc for +4 temporary dice

Apologies if this was addressed in the U57,P1 thread...but shouldn't the EK Core 6 proc for +4 temporary dice be upped to +6 for parity? Previously it was +4 d12, now according to my read it is going to be +4 d8. +6 temporary dice would seem to be appropriate and an easy tweak.

[Abilbo]

I don't have time to read the whole thread or test much but I brought several characters, including my artificier, over to check out Imbue on her and when I cast Greater Elemental weapons the spell text says +2 imbue die but the buff on the main screen said I cast regular elemental weapons +1 imbue die (i don't even have regular elemental weapons prepared) AND it doesn't change anything on the + tab of the character screen so I'm not sure what is going on.

Thats bugged, and Lynnabel has acknowledged it.

[Lynnabel]

I don't have time to read the whole thread or test much but I brought several characters, including my artificier, over to check out Imbue on her and when I cast Greater Elemental weapons the spell text says +2 imbue die but the buff on the main screen said I cast regular elemental weapons +1 imbue die (i don't even have regular elemental weapons prepared) AND it doesn't change anything on the + tab of the character screen so I'm not sure what is going on.

The spell is actually granting those dice to your weapon - classic DDO :P This and the other text inconsistencies have been fixed up internally, thank you!

[Indubitably]

What is the current state of Offhand Versatility now?
Is it the original spell crit on vorpal AND +1 imbue dice for both orb and runearm?
Or is it just +1 imbue dice now? which would feel like a terrible nerf and the removal of a fairly cool playstyle that promotes hybrid play.

Secondly,
The HP changes feel like they disadvantage some classes that already had bonuses.
Not a nerf, but everyone else increases by comparison (which is fine if your intent is to bring them down a little) - but effectively removing something that was a feature of the build and is now, if anything, a disadvantage.
Druids and ES warlocks are good example of this.

Anyways, the imbue changes feel sort of similar.
AA, EK, Poison Alch are already average (if even that) builds compared to their caster or melee/ranged counterparts, but are fun in their own way and have some versatility,
Their trees are very dedicated around the imbue that they bring, its there to bridge the gap (so to speak), even if it doesn't crit.
Having a global imbue system seems great, but some classes got a fairly potent boost to their attacks, in some cases going from 'nothing at all' to 'half the damage one of the classic imbue classes' - whilst still maintaining a tree that brings everything else it did without overly focusing on it.

An issue that exacerbates this is the amount of dice lying around. There is a lot of new imbue dice to invest in all around, and a small splash can get you a better imbue toggle if so inclined.
The standard d8 that alch/sorc/wiz have is no where near the 1d12 they could get to, and the +1 dice instead scales poorly compared to that. Maybe its been balanced around the game now, but later on - with more dice...

Below is (pathetic) napkin math average damage.
I know scaling, and when they might get dice, and splashing, yadda yadda yadda - take it with a grain of salt.
But it kinda shows the power gains some classes for "offhandedly" when other classes that dedicate a tree and their core mechanic to, aren't impressively different.
These other classes will have MUCH stronger base attacks that scale well later in game, especially with crits, and will have access to all the same extra dice - shortening the gap.
The future imbue system will likely be balanced around these dedicated melee classes and the caster imbue classes will find it hard to stay relevant.

Primary Imbue classes:
Alch, wiz, sorc: 11d8: 50 dam
AA 9d8: 40 dam
Inquis 7d8 / 8d8: 30-34 dam

A newishish possible imbue class:
Cleric 4d6-7d6 / 9d6 (can be somewhat combined into 12d6): 14-42 dam

Class that had some imbue damage:
Paladin 6d6-8d6: 25 dam +-3.5

Classes that had imbue damage, but it was negligible:
Henshin 7d6: 25 dam
Warchanter 6d6: 21 dam
Rogue 4d8: 17 dam

Classes that had NO imbue damage whatsoever before:
Arti 7d6: 25 dam - well, i guess that had elemental weapon, but that didnt scale and was exclusive with better enchants
Druid 4d6 (only for weird builds): 14 dam

I can't be bothered with predicting average imbue investment from feats and EDs and such, but the damage could easily be doubled or more without heavy investment with almost the same damage difference.

Is there any chance that AA, Poison Alch, and EK trees can get looked over to help keep them viable compared to actual melee classes that also play the imbue system?
Even if it's not damage, I feel these trees need something to make investing in them more appealing. Especially Poison Alch - which feels underwhleming.

For AA, allowing a damage imbue and an enchant imbue would go someway to fixing that and wouldn't make the tree feel mutually exclusive with half of it'self.
Currently, you invest in the elemental arrow line, or the 4 enchant arrows... but getting both feels wasteful.

For poison alch, I don't even know where to begin. The wave SLAs are terrible damage, the weapon upgrades are average, the spell power upgrades are average, not much defense, ranged vulnerability is single target only (which the tree seems to lean towards being ranged)... the only real thing is the imbue. Compare it's cores that give imbue dice to other tree's cores that give imbue dice + what they also give... its no contest.
That being said, I don't feel the poison alch is terrible. A lot of its power is found in class features. Along with how it gets its dice. So I'm picturing a lot of poison alchs not actually going deep into their own tree much, and instead going inq, cleric, AA, or something.

Ek/Sorc... I like the direction of weapon versatility, and the choice of shield or orb.
The temp HP from using a shield could do with a noticeable boost, and the orb choice could definitely do with a unique feature to entice blocking with it.
Adding some kind of proc based buff that allows you to apply free metamagics to the next spell cast could be cool to, another way to be interactive between melee and casting. (Just an example).
wiz/sorc/alch already ahve the lowest hp, and their melee tree gives the lowest competency bonus on top of that. They are going to feel even more fragile after this pass comparatively.
Having some kinda of defensed gained after casting spells might be an idea?

Anyways, just food for thought. I feel down the track the classic imbue classes are going to feel very underwhelming after this change. And their mechanics will be balanced around what other classes can do.

[misterski]

What is the current state of Offhand Versatility now?
Is it the original spell crit on vorpal AND +1 imbue dice for both orb and runearm?
Or is it just +1 imbue dice now? which would feel like a terrible nerf and the removal of a fairly cool playstyle that promotes hybrid play.

The spell crit on vorpal for orbs and runearms have been replaced by +1 imbue dice in Offhand Versatility in Preview 2. In Preview 1 only orbs had the +1 imbue dice and runearms still had the spell crit on vorpal. Looks like it's gone for good :/

[Aelonwy]

Thats bugged, and Lynnabel has acknowledged it.

The spell is actually granting those dice to your weapon - classic DDO :P This and the other text inconsistencies have been fixed up internally, thank you!

Thank you. That was all the time I had for testing and taking a peek.

Looks like my two ranged characters have 7 bonus imbue die at cap as-is. I can completely alter one by respec -ing her enhancements and completely twisting her character to get an additional 7 imbue die giving up stuff I had but I was happy with her prior to these changes. So these changes if I don't completely change her enhancements are still a nerf. The whole trade off thing is very annoying when I was happy with the trade-offs I had already chosen for my character to achieve the damage and defense I had... so along comes this update completely upheaving my choices forcing me to make different ones just to bring my dps back to where I had it but loosing defense if i do... and that only at cap, heroic Inquisitive is going to be painful now because heroic ranged power isn't going to do jack for scaling. So hooray for the people that just love rerolling and respec-ing and min-maxing but I'm getting tired of it.

I hope at least the quests are awesome.

[TueNictGut]

With Lighting the candle scaling at 1x Melee Power (or so it seems) It really doesn't feel punchy. Yea, it has the force, but that means on crit you would have near the same effect as SF with it's 2x scaling. Except sacred fist has many more dice it can get. All considered, the HeM imbue is really unsatisfying. 1x scaling with MP just hurts. SF gets spells to add force on crit in addition to many more dice and 2x scaling. They don't need to be the same by any stretch, but having played around with it, I just don't see myself using Lighting the Candle... ever. And I say that as someone with monk in all my favorite builds.

The quote is giving an example of different scaling of 2 imbues with Mp.
Would be interested, if this is intended?
And if so a list of all imbues and their scaling would be very helpful.
Iam in a clinic atm. So cant provide it.

Thx in Advance

[Stravix]

The quote is giving an example of different scaling of 2 imbues with Mp.
Would be interested, if this is intended?
And if so a list of all imbues and their scaling would be very helpful.
Iam in a clinic atm. So cant provide it.

Thx in Advance

Agreed. I would think that a standard baseline of imbue scaling should exist as well. If MP or RP scaling, it should be 2x MP/RP, to match sneak attacks.

Spellpower can be a straight scaling. Maybe some imbues could have more scaling, but a baseline along those lines would be nice as a starting point.

[ivorycoaster]

I think it would be nice to see a few other sets add imbue dice.. Most notably, Beacons of Magic, Esoteric Initiate. I think it is quite obvious that the imbue specialists are AA, EK (sorc/wiz), and Vile Alch, even Dark Apostate. These 5 trees would all net benefit from more build options by adding dice to both of these sets.
Another really neat option would be the TOEE sets. They are a bit of a novelty for most builds at this point but could become more relevant by adding imbue dice to certain sets.
Perhaps some gem of many facets relevant sets? Draconic prophecy? Desert's sets?


Also, just to kind of bring back one idea brought up in the preview 1 forum, it would be really nice to see something brought into Shintao. They are the forgotten children of DDO these days, and could use some form of benefit from this new system.
-perhaps 1d6 imbue from each elemental feat tree, separate from the stance, scaling with melee power?
-+1 dice each for adept, master, grandmaster autogrant feats? some synergy provided by henshin cores.

I get the idea that not every class needs an imbue, but I think when an opportunity arises to give shintao monk a little bit of love, it ought to be considered
By the way, thank you for all the hard work!

[Stravix]

I think it would be nice to see a few other sets add imbue dice.. Most notably, Beacons of Magic, Esoteric Initiate. I think it is quite obvious that the imbue specialists are AA, EK (sorc/wiz), and Vile Alch, even Dark Apostate. These 5 trees would all net benefit from more build options by adding dice to both of these sets.
Another really neat option would be the TOEE sets. They are a bit of a novelty for most builds at this point but could become more relevant by adding imbue dice to certain sets.
Perhaps some gem of many facets relevant sets? Draconic prophecy? Desert's sets?

100% this.

If only 3 sets get the dice, that is nowhere near available enough given the number of build styles which would now want them. Considering Abashai is now back to profane for all of it's bonuses, it could use some love as well, and considering the set seems to lend towards elemental martial builds, it would be the perfect spot for these to be added.

[Abilbo]

So I have spent much of the last two days trying to work out builds on Lamania that will use the imbue system, and it all boils down to one major flaw in it. IMBUES DON" CRIT. The builds I was playing with had some decent base numbers. I was using the EK tree, and getting over 28 Die added on, and using boosts and self buffs, could get hits for over 8K on every hit. To get that, you sacrifice Ranged Power, and there is no easy way to say it, but a Ranged Power build at end game, will do more DPS than an imbue build, because of things like crits, and because of abilities that bump your next attack.

I based my "non-crit" info on the fact that I never saw one, and the fact that on preview one, it was asked if they would, and that question went unanswered. The imbue system seemed like it was going to be very fun to play, and I was looking forward to trying out different builds, but I'm sorry to say, that I can't see me playing this at end game at all.

Change the imbue system so that when your weapon crits, your imbue crits, and these have the the potential to be very solid builds, as well as being very fun to play.

[Lotoc]

100% this.

If only 3 sets get the dice, that is nowhere near available enough given the number of build styles which would now want them. Considering Abashai is now back to profane for all of it's bonuses, it could use some love as well, and considering the set seems to lend towards elemental martial builds, it would be the perfect spot for these to be added.

I hope we see an augment set for artifact imbue dice either on u57 release or soon after.
I'd suggest bloodrage chrism being the item used to make the augment as it is one of the raid items in the crypt raider set which is gaining dice.

[Lotoc]

So I have spent much of the last two days trying to work out builds on Lamania that will use the imbue system, and it all boils down to one major flaw in it. IMBUES DON" CRIT. The builds I was playing with had some decent base numbers. I was using the EK tree, and getting over 28 Die added on, and using boosts and self buffs, could get hits for over 8K on every hit. To get that, you sacrifice Ranged Power, and there is no easy way to say it, but a Ranged Power build at end game, will do more DPS than an imbue build, because of things like crits, and because of abilities that bump your next attack.

I based my "non-crit" info on the fact that I never saw one, and the fact that on preview one, it was asked if they would, and that question went unanswered. The imbue system seemed like it was going to be very fun to play, and I was looking forward to trying out different builds, but I'm sorry to say, that I can't see me playing this at end game at all.

Change the imbue system so that when your weapon crits, your imbue crits, and these have the the potential to be very solid builds, as well as being very fun to play.

Imbues being able to crit kind of breaks them.
On live Assassin Rogues and EKs are like, two of the top 5 dps builds without sneak attack dice or imbues critting.
The game does not need damage creep that severe.

[Zites]

Fighter stuff is actually in the other thread, check it out!

How about this Fighter stuff, you extend Imbue duration to any class that heals Fighter.

[archerforever]

Ranger:

• (Ranger - Tempest) 1d8 Electric, melee or ranged power
• (Ranger - Arcane Archer) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power
• (Ranger - Arcane Archer) 1d8 Force, force spellpower
• (Arcane Archer) Tiers 2, 3, 4, and 5 grant +2 Dice each
• Note: All other primary Arcane Archer imbues are also now imbues in this system.

Sorcerer:

• (Eldritch Knight Core 2) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements)

Wizard:

• (Eldritch Knight Core 2) 1d8 Fire/Cold/Acid/Electric, appropriate Spell Power (they get all 4 elements)

Feats:

• (Embodiment of Law - Destiny Feat) is now: +3 PRR and MRR. if you are lawful, you also gain +2 imbue dice
• (Embodiment of Chaos - Destiny Feat) is now: +2% doublestrike and doubleshot. If you are chaotic, you also gain +2 imbue dice
• (Enhanced Elemental Dice - Destiny Feat) +1 Dice

Destinies:

• Shiradi Champion mantle gains 1d77 per 7 bonus dice - this is not an imbue toggle BUT gains benefits from your imbue dice!
• Draconic Tier 3 now grants +1/2/3 Dice
• Crusade! buff in Divine Crusader now grants +1 dice
• Ghost Touch in LD is now "Esoteric Touch" and grants both Ghost Touch and +1 Imbue Dice
• Shared Mantle in PA now also grants +3 Imbue Dice while within the PA Mantle

Items:
[LIST][*]Filigree Set Bonuses that used to give a scaling imbue on-hit now give +1 Dice[*]Augments from Hunt or Be Hunted Raid now give +1 Enhancement bonus to bonus Dice[*]Certain Set Bonuses get +1 Dice in heroics, 2 in epics, 3 in legendary (artifact typed):

• Profane Experiment
• Echoes of the Waking Ancestors
• Crypt Raider

Arcane Archer have to get all 4 elementals arrow tier 1 as Eldritch Knights gets all with core 2(maybe it s the case as you say that AA get +2 Dice tier 2/3/4/5)
Arcane archer tier 5 Improved elemental arrows multiselector has to be only 1 enhancement that gives both bonuses : +2 dice AND the bonus effect on critical

Enhanced Elemental Dice - Destiny Feat +1 Dice is NOT enough and balanced for a lvl 31 feat when a lvl 28 feat is giving +2 dice. Enhanced Elemental Dice - Destiny Feat should be +3 Dice

Draconic Tier 3 now grants +1/2/3 Dice
Shared Mantle tier 3 in PA now also grants +3 Imbue Dice while within the PA Mantle
SO Shiradi champion tier 3 Pierce Deception should give +3 Imbue Dice also to scale with other destinies (or maybe somewhere else but shiradi champion need that damage dice)

With that new mechanic I think that MORE set effects should give imbue damage dice as a standard. Only 3 sets giving Imbue Dice is really NOT enough.
Arcane Archer set from gilvaenor s ring & Givaenor s necklace from tower of despair should be reworked and give +3 Imbue Dice !!!

Additionnaly I wish to know what is the scaling for imbues.
For exemple is the spell power scaling for Arcane archer imbue is the same as the spell power scaling for an eldritch knight imbues ? and for all other classes ?

Overall I really love that change, great job devs.