We NEED to NERF Casters...

[Lotoc]

Nerf casters when you nerf the unkillability of melee in Raids. Casters are so glass cannon in raids compared to melee that we need to nerf all those melee players in raids. Then also, nerf those bow dude and those stupid dagger pew pew pewer for all that single target damage. They can burn a boss down super fast! I think everyone should get nerfs! That's just what player bases love... having their years old character nerfed Yeah excellent idea.

Often the only advantage melee really have defense wise over casters is Epic Defensive Stance, most every defensive attribute beyond that comes at the cost of DPS, don't look at tanks and claim all melee are unkillable while FVS gets to have as much HP for free and while Sorcs, Druids and undead casters get immunity to a bunch of mechanics.
Because melee need to itemize even more stats than a caster they can often end up lacking in saves, or resistances and gearing a hybrid like an EK can easily end up being truly glass cannon.

Let's be real here casters truly are top of the pack and repeatedly caster players have screamed at every single perceived nerf for the last couple years "Stat squish will kill casters", "ED revamp will kill casters" and all we've seen as a result of these is casters are every bit as dominant as they were before, if not moreso.
I don't think it is actually feasible to nerf casters enough to even the playing field, not without some truly major shifts. It's also not like melee doesn't do enough dps, it just lacks the utility and front loaded damage that nukers have and it probably isn't possible to bring up melee utility to compete outside of making warchanter actually able to dps.

[jskinner937]

This thread and the whole discussion therein is perspective and not reality.

There are some valid points of limiting mana pool, etc.

But why does everything have to be a comparison to another playstyle? I am not arguing that melees need a boost, but just because ranged or caster styles are easier, does not make them a target for nerfs. Yes they level faster from mid heroics on. Yes they outperform in r10s. But they are not preferred in raids compared to melee, which last I checked was end game. Maybe melees need more SLAs or boosts to bring them up to normal questing speed or more AOE CC. But I think to say I do quests slower or level slower because I prefer melee playstyle is a bit unfair. Most of us have a preference, but more importantly most of have a combination characters we actually play as well for various reasons. I kind of prefer having some parity in different play styles as many do.

Personally, I think calling for true balance by the players is an impossible task to do from the devs, and would rather them look more often into under performing classes/play styles and maybe spend more energy updating outdated class/race enhancements to bring them up to speed.

Melee, overall is fine. Maybe defenses need a boost and perhaps some more AOE CC Options, but from a single target DPS (non-mob) melee is and will be king.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I'm assuming this is a troll post and therefore will not participate in the baited fight.

[thegreatcthulhu]

I think a better solution would be to look at ways to improve the game for melee characters WITHOUT ruining everyone else's fun. And for what it is worth, I also only play melee - Paladins specifically. I can see where things could be improved for my character's capabilities, but that doesn't mean I think the solution is to make a completely different classes abilities worse. That in the end doesn't benefit me or any other melee character's capabilities one bit so ever.

[droid327]

Yes they level faster from mid heroics on. Yes they outperform in r10s. But they are not preferred in raids compared to melee, which last I checked was end game.

TR is endgame. The TR treadmill is what drives 90% of the longevity of the game. Raiding is more of a cul-de-sac on the side of DDO Circle.

Its the highest difficulty portion of the game, but its not the natural conclusion of the progression of gameplay in DDO. And its definitely not the only metric that "counts" in terms of balance. Being balanced for comparable leveling/TRing experiences is a valid concern to weigh as well.

[Zeleron]

I think a better solution would be to look at ways to improve the game for melee characters WITHOUT ruining everyone else's fun. And for what it is worth, I also only play melee - Paladins specifically. I can see where things could be improved for my character's capabilities, but that doesn't mean I think the solution is to make a completely different classes abilities worse. That in the end doesn't benefit me or any other melee character's capabilities one bit so ever.

Granted there is some enhancement needed, buffing playstyles that are lacking is not the best solution. It's what resulted in getting reaper mode. Too which if a playstyle can solo R10s that style needs to be nerfed not ignored and buff everyone else. Which means yes, ranged should be taking a hit to kiting too.

[thegreatcthulhu]

Granted there is some enhancement needed, buffing playstyles that are lacking is not the best solution. It's what resulted in getting reaper mode. Too which if a playstyle can solo R10s that style needs to be nerfed not ignored and buff everyone else. Which means yes, ranged should be taking a hit to kiting too.

Fair, but again, nerfing someone else in the end is work by SSG that doesn't benefit me as a customer. And of course, I think it's plausibly unfair for another customer.

Also, I have to question how long someone has been playing the game if they are able to solo R10 and also which dungeons they are soloing R10. Are these people who are soloing R10 soloing end game dungeons like Fall of the Forbidden Temple, ToEE AND also people who have ALL the completionist achievement feats, epic past lives, etc? I could see your point more if these are fresh, first life characters that have only been around for about a month.

[JOTMON]

It's blatant and I can't stand it anymore. As a melee I am allowed this one time rant card, deal with it.

[]Anecdotal w/ 99% of being true: I was running through Night Revels with 1st life caster guildies for the past 20 hours+ and it's become nauseatingly obvious that they are magnitudes far beyond any melee in terms of AoE DPS or even single-target DPS. I am almost "optimized" on my 6th PL. These casters after posting their inventory are fresh capped forst lifers. And no, it's not "skill" as I've exclusively played melees in my 7 years here.

[]Fact: In mid to high skull reapers, the best defence is distance from you and the target. Not only do casters have this as their natural "attack state" but because of their ridiculous firepower from "back there" nothing really gets to them.

[]Fact: They have the most utility versus any class especially with a pure build melee.

[]Fact: They level the fastest (gee I wonder why)

[]Fact: Lowest gear thresholds.

[]Fact: Highest Max Power Potential.


Please, developers. I know you know. I know you know. And yes, it affects my gameplay and enjoyment, because if one set of classes are just leaps & bounds OP over another set (aka melees) it drags my fun down.

Once I was even asked by guildmates/raiders to "just ditch melee and join the *winners*"... the absolute demeaning nature of what this comment implied made me quit DDO for a couple of months.

We NEED to nerf casters. Just pull the bandaid off now and let them take the sting now.

Rant allowance: denied.

Your caster hate is hurtful.

Your exclusive 7 years of melee means nothing... just shows you have a narrow minded and limited perception opinion... play caster and see for yourself.

Get new guildmates, if they don't appreciate melee value they are fools that don't deserve you

[]False Facts: wasted commentary.

[Zeleron]

Fair, but again, nerfing someone else in the end is work by SSG that doesn't benefit me as a customer. And of course, I think it's plausibly unfair for another customer.

Also, I have to question how long someone has been playing the game if they are able to solo R10 and also which dungeons they are soloing R10. Are these people who are soloing R10 soloing end game dungeons like Fall of the Forbidden Temple, ToEE AND also people who have ALL the completionist achievement feats, epic past lives, etc? I could see your point more if these are fresh, first life characters that have only been around for about a month.

Is it fair to the other customers that want to play melee in groups if the quest is just completely dominated by the caster? Who then gets upset when the melee say they are making the game unfun for them?

Mostly just used R10 solos as an example cause atm its mostly done by casters with ease, followed by ranged, with a select few melee too. Of course new players aren't going to do it that's kind of obvious.

[Xaxx]

Ok so couple general points to touch on in different replies....
so casters level the fastest so you wanna nerf their spell points or damage... ok so lets speak of soloing here... alot of casters with lower mana pools already are pushing the edge and even sorcs/fvs push the spell point edge through a good bit of level ranges.... so make casters less useful in groups and make them from best leveling to relying on groups no matter what unless you wanna do norm/hard.... yeah that sound like SUCH A GOOD IDEA.... no it really doesnt...

Casters, high rs but low gear bar.... ummm.... uhhh... does.... not... compute...

do i even need to get into raiding like at all here.... i mean if anyones gonna come out and actually say that bosses and sub bosses with millions of hp or tens of millions of hp are gonna be smoked by casters.... woo you got your hands on some good stuff there man

So many other things in here saying yeah casters can do this but its so easy when your comparing r10 on one end and hard on the other....


You know what I'm not gonna rehash mele vs caster vs ranged again.... no matter whats going on people who favor mele will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS stomp and moan about how underpowered they are even when they're on top of the heap.... there are still people that complain about how powerful blaster warlocks, alchemists, and shiradi casters still are... there is nothing to be done for those people but to remove those things fr....om ..... the...... game..... man they basically DID that with shiradi and people STILL MOAN...... uhg.... yeah im done reading this stuff when i can watch barbs plow through r5s faster than my sorc can

[Yamani]

yeah im done reading this stuff when i can watch barbs plow through r5s faster than my sorc can

Heh at least you know your ability of play I guess? Most people on the forums think they are substantially better then what they actually are. Granted most players are like that in general too.

[Dreamforge]

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

[PedXing20]

Is it fair to the other customers that want to play melee in groups if the quest is just completely dominated by the caster? Who then gets upset when the melee say they are making the game unfun for them?

Why in god's green earth would you group with people who ruin your fun?
You don't like playing with casters? Don't play with casters.

[ahpook]

I play a caster and you're right. But the answer isn't to nerf casters. it's to beef up melee. Give them new powers and abilities that make them more comparable. Let S&B fighters use a hammer slam which is equivalent to earthquake. Allow THW users to periodically double their range in a great cleave. Kind of like how they did for rogues. Let TWF's shoot out slicing attacks at range. Like Zoro from one piece. Give ranged toons explosive arrows. Not every arrow. A special move with a cooldown. Those are just a few examples.

The answer is to not give melee more DPS. Their damage is fine. The better solution is to not make avoidance the superior defensive strategy. Make melee defensive count for more as well caster's lack of defense also count for more.

[mr420247]

Elemental caster and DI destiny have these things called evocation saves crazy i know you don't have them no fail you do half or 0 damage and waste spell points and blue bar

Which compares to ac and hit and spells fizzle all the frakkin time lol

And then theres all the immunes if you don't have access to stripping how bout champs and bosses that heal from melee and ranged damage with limited ways to bypass that

Now thats balance

[Smelt32]

hmm....

All I gotta say about this is, they nerfed one spell! one first level spell mind you, and the forum backlash was incredible. The amount of players that said they were quitting because of it was incredulous and you want to nerf casters in general?!?!??!?!?!?

The only conclusion i can draw from this is that you work for some rival company that is desperate for an influx of new players.

At the end of the day this game offers a wide variety of play styles and doesn't stop anyone from playing the way they want too.

If you don't want to run through the content at maximum speed with all mobs melting in front of you don't play with people that do. It's really that simple.

You have options. Solo or join/form melee only groups. put up lfm's stating the required play style. etc.

And just so you know, this is not a new thing. This has been going on for most of DDo's life. We had a cleric in our guild 10 or 11 years ago (maybe more) that could charge through all the content like it wasn't there, dragging the rest of us behind him like a bunch of lost puppies. That was great every once in while, but it wasn't for me all the time and so I limited the amount of quests and raids I ran with him.

The beauty of D&D is that is a game that allows and encourages you to play it the way you want to. If DDO has stuck rigidly to D&D in any way, shape or form it is this aspect of the game.

[Alphabox]

Mana pool is important, but why not give more meaning to [Mobile Spellcasting]?


Regarding the caster issue
I think the easiest way is to have Casting Time in the spellcasting like Ever Quest.

Instead of activating the magic when the button is pressed, the magic should be activated after the spell is chanted.

If time is needed to cast spells, distance from monsters and hate management should be more important than it is now!

Objectively speaking, the current DDO system doesn't cast magic, does it?
It's being invoked instantaneously.

[eightspoons]

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

Well, not exactly. For casters that depend on evocation spells that attack reflex saves, evasion can be a huge issue without very significant investment in evocation DC focus. There's not even a glancing blow - they just outright don't work at all.

Otherwise, I personally think casters could perhaps do with a bit of balancing rather than outright nerfing. After all, from the perspective of pure DnD, casters are supposed to be far more powerful at mid-high levels.

[ned_ellis]

Ok, I'll premise that I'm a caster/hybrid player exclusively.
I feel 'melee' should have a hand in the areas of tacticals and physical defenses but I would also be for the stamina bar concept, as a way to differentiate between heavy and light melees rather than as a 'debuff' for melees in general.
See Droid for the 'caster nerf ' I'd like.
but to your points/reasons...meh, sorry. I'd advise getting keys from quests and skipping the mabar general area - it would help your frustration no end!

snip

It's blatant and I can't stand it anymore. As a melee I am allowed this one time rant card, deal with it.

[]Anecdotal w/ 99% of being true: I was running through Night Revels with 1st life caster guildies for the past 20 hours+ and it's become nauseatingly obvious that they are magnitudes far beyond any melee in terms of AoE DPS or even single-target DPS. I am almost "optimized" on my 6th PL. These casters after posting their inventory are fresh capped forst lifers. And no, it's not "skill" as I've exclusively played melees in my 7 years here. worst possible comparison; not indicative of the game at all (but ill admit, annoying for those with the 'wrong' build!)

[]Fact: In mid to high skull reapers, the best defence is distance from you and the target. Not only do casters have this as their natural "attack state" but because of their ridiculous firepower from "back there" nothing really gets to them. I'm not in high reaper difficulties yet but tbh this is part of why balancing one to the other style is impossible. something to be said about defensive qualitites of heavy armoured toons but otherwise, in any book or pnp you've played, if the fighter gets blocked by the BBG(caster) he...dies. if the fighter gets to the BBG(caster) he mulches him. basic 101 fantasy there.

[]Fact: They have the most utility versus any class especially with a pure build melee. try a rogue, arti or bard if you want utility whilst hitting things with a pointy stick

[]Fact: They level the fastest (gee I wonder why) afaik yup; but is it fun? seems like it wouldn't be for you (or me - I can't stand sorc)

[]Fact: Lowest gear thresholds. mmm...i don't think so, sry. maybe a single element sorc might

[]Fact: Highest Max Power Potential. I'm told by very elite players that melee is the top power (if power for you is dmg). what is power for you?

snip.

Casters do need a nerf. But not to damage....to spell points

We need to get back to the original paradigm of "casters do huge damage but cant sustain it forever". If they had more of an enforced tradeoff between their huge AOE nukes and weaker, cheaper spells, then it would bring more of a skill element back in, as well as providing melee more of a rolespace in party play. Once power creep essentially let them go a whole quest without ever running out of SP, that tradeoff broke, and they kept all the upside while mitigating all the downside.

Absolutely this - easiest and most effective balancing 'nerf' for casters. and i miss shrining - it helps the group feel!

I will add that these threads born of frustration can be good to get ideas on the table for improving general gameplay / classes.

[archest]

you must be just having an issue with lag.
personally dont think any player should be able to solo any quest.