We NEED to NERF Casters...

[LightBear]

For the OP, a good melee build is 100% needed to do Reapers beyond R3, possibly even R1 depending on the amount of reaper points your party has gathered.

I'm doing a round of R10s at level 29+ each life now and can tell you that each PUG that I join that does not have a melee with high ac, prr, mrr and hp it's going to be a painful experience for that night.

Other than that, the devs should never have altered the stacking of crit range rand crit multipliers for weapons.
If they left that alone a melee would do the same damage numbers at endgame.

That said, there are still some two hander axe builds out there that can come close.
That said, get a SoS and possibly an Epic-SoS.

[Lotoc]

melee with high ac, prr, mrr and hp it's going to be a painful experience for that night.

What you're talking about here is a tank, and most r10 groups don't really bother with them, they just take 6 casters or ranged and abuse kiting and safe spots and treat melee that would want to join, or even tanks that would want to join as a liability.
You don't need a tank for high skulls, you need a tank for melee dps to not get flattened.
But for a tank in high skulls you need a healer.
Basically for Melee dps to thrive in reaper dungeons you need a balanced party, for a caster to thrive in reaper dungeons you need to just know where the safe spots are and take advantage of enemies not being given proper countermeasures for them.

[Karthunk]

They'll nerf casters by giving mobs more dodge.

They already did, it's called evasion.

[XXThermitexX]

What you're talking about here is a tank, and most r10 groups don't really bother with them, they just take 6 casters or ranged and abuse kiting and safe spots and treat melee that would want to join, or even tanks that would want to join as a liability.
You don't need a tank for high skulls, you need a tank for melee dps to not get flattened.
But for a tank in high skulls you need a healer.
Basically for Melee dps to thrive in reaper dungeons you need a balanced party, for a caster to thrive in reaper dungeons you need to just know where the safe spots are and take advantage of enemies not being given proper countermeasures for them.

You either have no idea what you are talking about or are running with other inexperienced players lol.

[Karthunk]

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

Casters do have a "to hit", it's called a DC check.


I can tell who hasn't played casters and who has.

[Karthunk]

What you're talking about here is a tank, and most r10 groups don't really bother with them, they just take 6 casters or ranged and abuse kiting and safe spots and treat melee that would want to join, or even tanks that would want to join as a liability.
You don't need a tank for high skulls, you need a tank for melee dps to not get flattened.
But for a tank in high skulls you need a healer.
Basically for Melee dps to thrive in reaper dungeons you need a balanced party, for a caster to thrive in reaper dungeons you need to just know where the safe spots are and take advantage of enemies not being given proper countermeasures for them.

I will take a group with an R10 tank over a group of nothing but casters any day. A properly geared R10 tank does not require a dedicated healer.

[Lotoc]

They already did, it's called evasion.

Casters do have a "to hit", it's called a DC check.


I can tell who hasn't played casters and who has.

Evasion is not to dodge as AC is to saves.
Evasion is more like scrapping grazing blows and the bounded accuracy system, evasion is never a problem if your DCs are high enough, enemies don't just evade if you would have gotten full damage.
Dodge is more like giving enemies evasion and expanding the auto-success on a save from 20 to 15-20, except melee and range don't get ridealong effects like mantles and dripping with magma applying on a miss while casters do, and in fact if you ask that Soul of Cruelty Fire Elementals not just outright murder rogues successfully saving against the aura you get casters screaming that fixing that would kill casters.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My caster melees in Night Revels.....

And in low Reapers.

I have never made any character that can take a hit in R10 or from those legendary red-named Orthons.


While I do think casters are more powerful than melee or ranged, I'd rather see the others get boosted.

Nerfs are the worst thing ever.

Stop the nerfs!

Stop them stop them stop them!!!!!!!!!

[krimsonrane]

You mean like Thor? I don't recall Thor uses a shield though? I don't mind if they add this ability to the LD tree though.



But that's an epic destiny ability giving to THF at heroic?!? That'll be beyond broken...
But they already got Strikethrough which is not D&D at all and barbarians are fine at the moment...



Not sure about this one, I haven't seen the Zoro series episodes.



Explosive arrows ability yes, this is available in D&D; but other abilities probably no.

This is an official Wizards of the Coast licensed project, I doubt they are going to something that's so drastically not D&D.
However, we got PRR and MRR,... and you never know...

We went way beyond D&D rules a long time ago.

[salmag]

Casters do need a nerf. But not to damage....to spell points

We need to get back to the original paradigm of "casters do huge damage but cant sustain it forever". If they had more of an enforced tradeoff between their huge AOE nukes and weaker, cheaper spells, then it would bring more of a skill element back in, as well as providing melee more of a rolespace in party play. Once power creep essentially let them go a whole quest without ever running out of SP, that tradeoff broke, and they kept all the upside while mitigating all the downside.

^ This.

Casters do not need their damage to be nerfed. Their SP pool needs to be nerfed.
Or, maybe, take a look at Spell cost. All spells should go back to the original SP costs.

Base cost
Level 1 - 10 SP
Level 2 - 15 SP
Level 3 - 20 SP
Level 4 - 25 SP
Level 5 - 30 SP
Level 6 - 35 SP
Level 7 - 40 SP
Level 8 - 45 SP
Level 9 - 50 SP

Add in the costs for metamagics and casters have to start minding their SPs (and shrining) again.

SLAs should cost similar to their Spell counterpart. The benefit to SLAs is no cost metamagics.

[vageta311]

This has been and will always be a problem for just about any MMO like this, let alone the original PnP games. Casters start out notoriously squishy, but once they get some levels they quickly overtake melee. This has been a thing in MMO's since UO and Everquest and I don't see how it can really change without designing the game from the ground up. It's a difficult balance just essentially making every class the same and giving their spells/attacks different names and then calling it balance. Homogenizing classes is a bad thing, having roles is an important part of MMOs.

Do people ever stop and think that some things aren't supposed to be balanced? Like a fighter will never, under any circumstance, be as powerful as a wizard. PnP or MMO, doesn't matter. If you play a fighter you play them knowing your power level. You're not supposed to cry to devs that you feel underpowered, you're supposed to play the class knowing that from the start and dealing with it. In classic Everquest warriors and rogues were by far the most helpless classes without a partner or group. However, you put them in the right setting and they become gods. Rogues could only backstab if they had a tank holding aggro. Warriors could only keep tanking if they have a healer keeping them up. Both could only reach their full potential by being buffed up by other classes. This was the balance. Helpless alone, but extremely powerful in groups. If those two classes could somehow hang with casters without their help, then it wouldn't make sense to allow them to be greater than that with friends helping.

Ie; Melees do their best with a support group allowing them to do their thing. Casters are better solo because of how their class is designed. One is weaker alone, but can become extremely tanky and have massive damage output in the right setting. The other excels while solo, and doesn't rise to a new level in a group because they already have what they need.

Seriously guys.. If you enjoy melee then play melee. You will never be able to clear rooms as quickly as a blaster, because you aren't supposed to. Do you want a sorcerer being able to facetank in R10 as well as your actual tank? If not then why do you expect your tank to be able to solo and clear rooms like a sorc?

[jskinner937]

TR is endgame. The TR treadmill is what drives 90% of the longevity of the game. Raiding is more of a cul-de-sac on the side of DDO Circle.

Its the highest difficulty portion of the game, but its not the natural conclusion of the progression of gameplay in DDO. And its definitely not the only metric that "counts" in terms of balance. Being balanced for comparable leveling/TRing experiences is a valid concern to weigh as well.

So I suppose I should quit since I have one character with all past lives and another with all but 30? I won DDO time to move on.

[macellomatik]

Melees are flavor classes now.

You only play melee when you are so OP from past lives that you can facetank spells, traps and arrows on top of melee damage.
Also you will still be 20 times slower than a caster both because you have to chase and miss and because you have no utilty skills.

Also if a friend is a caster then you can enjoy the game while they clear 90% of the stuff... just get some running boosts unless you want you friend to get bored waiting.

/rant

However I don't think nerfing casters is the solution.
CASTERS ARE FUN NOW.

They need to bring Melee (and Ranged) to the Caster level.
Examples based on what Melee lacks:
- Speed -> Melee classes get stacking 10% speed at like lvl 15 of that class or a combined "melee lore" feat
- Chasing -> Maybe make enemies flee less (or like not back-hopping on top of columns) or offer more charge/harpoon skills (that would make the gameplay much more fun too)
- Hitting -> make melee weapons hit boxes LARGER (THIS IS SORELY NEEDED, daggers only hit enemies pushing against you) (this is also needed to compensate missing due to lag)
- Utilities -> Give a couple of utility skills in trees (like the half-ork knock bases on strength) or maybe make a melee utility universal mini-tree

[jskinner937]

Melees need to invest on "to hit" roll while casters do not. Spells always hit 100% as long as they have the line of sight. This is the most glaring unbalanced mechanic in DnD. Pathfinder balances this by using Dexterity check to roll whether the spell lands or not. If spells have a chance to not land then casters are forced to invest on their survival in addition to their damage. Right now, in DDO, casters can ignore everything in their build except damage as long as they strike first.

The spell version of "to hit" is called a save. Some spells actually do no damage on save, while others do half. Casters need to focus on DCs, damage, crit chance and crit multi, while melees focus on "to hit", damage and weapons, enhancements and feats take care of the cirt chance/multi. This logic is nonsensical.

Maybe the better logic is defense for melee compared to range/casters. This is actaully the true divide between the playstyles. Fort, Dodge, PRR, Def Saves, defensive buffs, healing, HAMP, etc are all more important and compulsory on melee builds, while ranged/casters can prioritize damage over defenses.

[Lotoc]

This has been and will always be a problem for just about any MMO like this, let alone the original PnP games. Casters start out notoriously squishy, but once they get some levels they quickly overtake melee. This has been a thing in MMO's since UO and Everquest and I don't see how it can really change without designing the game from the ground up. It's a difficult balance just essentially making every class the same and giving their spells/attacks different names and then calling it balance. Homogenizing classes is a bad thing, having roles is an important part of MMOs.

Do people ever stop and think that some things aren't supposed to be balanced? Like a fighter will never, under any circumstance, be as powerful as a wizard. PnP or MMO, doesn't matter. If you play a fighter you play them knowing your power level. You're not supposed to cry to devs that you feel underpowered, you're supposed to play the class knowing that from the start and dealing with it. In classic Everquest warriors and rogues were by far the most helpless classes without a partner or group. However, you put them in the right setting and they become gods. Rogues could only backstab if they had a tank holding aggro. Warriors could only keep tanking if they have a healer keeping them up. Both could only reach their full potential by being buffed up by other classes. This was the balance. Helpless alone, but extremely powerful in groups. If those two classes could somehow hang with casters without their help, then it wouldn't make sense to allow them to be greater than that with friends helping.

Ie; Melees do their best with a support group allowing them to do their thing. Casters are better solo because of how their class is designed. One is weaker alone, but can become extremely tanky and have massive damage output in the right setting. The other excels while solo, and doesn't rise to a new level in a group because they already have what they need.

Seriously guys.. If you enjoy melee then play melee. You will never be able to clear rooms as quickly as a blaster, because you aren't supposed to. Do you want a sorcerer being able to facetank in R10 as well as your actual tank? If not then why do you expect your tank to be able to solo and clear rooms like a sorc?

You are completely disregarding that in these other systems a caster will ultimately be less durable than a melee on the same level, that in content balanced around multiple players your wizard will get flattened by a boss.
In ddo that simply isn't the case, the stats are too generalized, roles besides caster need to itemize more stats to perform their roles leaving less room for survival. Sure casters are made to excel in solo content typically but they do not dominate regular group content to the degree we see in DDO.
The balance of DDO is fundamentally in group based content group based builds feel like they are a liability to the group besides spellsinger bards - which are yet another caster.
Tanks are only relevant in raids and r10s and even then you get casters just taking their place, healers are largely irrelevant because nukers often can fulfill their role well enough, melee and ranged only really are relevant compared to casters in high end raid content but they're far more likely to die due to the defenses melee get not offsetting the capacity to self heal and the safety being at a distance offers.
Fundamentally casters have too many advantages over every other role in DDO.
That Rogue who needs a group to excel? That tank that needs a group to excel? When you feel like you may as well not be there because you're grouped with a caster that is a problem. You're not excelling if you have no agency and are just being carried.

[Lotoc]

- Speed -> Melee classes get stacking 10% speed at like lvl 15 of that class or a combined "melee lore" feat

This is actually a problem with DDO
Every class is potentially a melee class, you can't really give melee anything without the potential of casters taking advantage of it. This is why EDF is so godawful in design and even then because it didn't apply to thrown spells alchemists were using it for a while.

[Zeleron]

Why in god's green earth would you group with people who ruin your fun?
You don't like playing with casters? Don't play with casters.

I don't control every single group I run with? And I'm not about to just leave party because some wanna be pretender thinks they are a walking god cause they play caster.

[PurpleSerpent]

Once I was even asked by guildmates/raiders to "just ditch melee and join the *winners*"... the absolute demeaning nature of what this comment implied made me quit DDO for a couple of months.

We NEED to nerf casters. Just pull the bandaid off now and let them take the sting now.

Right, let's get the fact I only play Wizard out of the way first.

This said, I have some alternative suggestions:
* Maybe we should buff melee and ranged characters instead?
* Also, maybe consider moving guilds. Your guildmates don't sound like nice people.

Incidentally, I can't help but note that most of your objections seem to equate "casters" with "sorcerers". Warlocks and Wizards have a much rougher time of it at high levels or on Reaper because they get rather less DPS bonuses and their alternative access to easy instakill options, status effects and crowd control become much less effective once you break Epic, simply because so many monsters start gaining extra immunities and resistances. And a lot of people who've never played a Bard would be very angry if they got nerfed, because reducing the class to a pure buffbot/healer would be a pretty good way of making sure a lot of people stopped playing it despite how useful a Bard is in a party. Should Artificers count? Alchemists? Stormsingers?

The only caster class set up purely to deal magical DPS and nothing else is the Sorcerer, and that's kind of been their point since the beginning. And even they've been much worse in the past (remember the Ravenloft belts?) So frankly, I think we'd be better off resolving the issues with melee and ranged DPS options rather than a blanket nerf which, regardless of your opinion on Sorcerer, will hit several classes that don't deserve it.

Also, "pull the bandaid off"? You know how much trouble we have with survivability, right?

[Karthunk]

Evasion is not to dodge as AC is to saves.
Evasion is more like scrapping grazing blows and the bounded accuracy system, evasion is never a problem if your DCs are high enough, enemies don't just evade if you would have gotten full damage.
Dodge is more like giving enemies evasion and expanding the auto-success on a save from 20 to 15-20, except melee and range don't get ridealong effects like mantles and dripping with magma applying on a miss while casters do, and in fact if you ask that Soul of Cruelty Fire Elementals not just outright murder rogues successfully saving against the aura you get casters screaming that fixing that would kill casters.

Evasion is exactly like dodge in that if the mob takes zero damage from the attack. Melee and casters both have certain ways to get around each of these issues.

I don't recall seeing my casters have any mantle procs on a evasion success from a mob.

[Sheneran]

Is it fair to the other customers that want to play melee in groups if the quest is just completely dominated by the caster? Who then gets upset when the melee say they are making the game unfun for them?

Mostly just used R10 solos as an example cause atm its mostly done by casters with ease, followed by ranged, with a select few melee too. Of course new players aren't going to do it that's kind of obvious.

This is actually false. I check some videos and most of R10 solos are done by melee. When casters do, it is taking way more time and precautions (except some vids of alchemist but I suppose that was in the beggining of their lauch). It is true in the beggining of reaper casters soloed first, but that was using a totally suboptimal playstyle of charming, that caused way too long completions, and exploitation of safe spots. When r10 started to be soloable without that due to powercreep, melee started dominating. Ranged has always been inbetween.

The problem really is the lack of single target dps for casters, and arcanes had less usrvivability on top of that. That is the same thing causing them to not be funny at raids. And things have been like that since u14.

As for leveling, AoE dominates there, nothing can be done about this. And this too has always been like that. And it's not like it is a problem, because everyone is overkilling there, be it caster or melee.