The real reason this game is dying.

[fatherpirate]

It is slowly dying because it is old.
and all the stuff that happens to an mmorpg when it gets old.
elitism, unfriendly vet players, old graphics, lag etc..

[Oxarhamar]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

I dunno I see just as many if not more groups that are helpful

I think what is really killing the game is no adverts to bring new players & no email campaign to notify past players of new updates

[Oxarhamar]

It is slowly dying because it is old.
and all the stuff that happens to an mmorpg when it gets old.
elitism, unfriendly vet players, old graphics, lag etc..

& yet it’s still a top profitable game for SSG

YW

[KoobTheProud]

It is slowly dying because it is old.
and all the stuff that happens to an mmorpg when it gets old.
elitism, unfriendly vet players, old graphics, lag etc..

And players get older and move on. One of the reasons you want to be welcoming to new players is that without that characteristic you are on a guaranteed path to decline.

[draven1]

One of the reasons for this situation is the game itself encourages faster completion.

XP pots are based on time, too huge grind of TR hamster wheels, etc.

[Inanout]

& yet it’s still a top profitable game for SSG

YW

I thought SSG only has LOTRO and DDO.
LOTRO makes more.
DDO for the players who actually pay, they pay more compared to LOTRO players.
So I guess DDO is in the top 2 earners of SSG's 2 game empire.

[fatherpirate]

I thought SSG only has LOTRO and DDO.
LOTRO makes more.
DDO for the players who actually pay, they pay more compared to LOTRO players.
So I guess DDO is in the top 2 earners of SSG's 2 game empire.

lol one way to spin it I guess.
Not to say they are not making SOME money off of DDO,
LOTRO I am sure is their biggest cash cow.

[Oxarhamar]

lol one way to spin it I guess.
Not to say they are not making SOME money off of DDO,
LOTRO I am sure is their biggest cash cow.

& based on the numbers we know DDO would be even bigger cash cow ifn they advertised

[Mofus]

I have been playing since 2009, and the came sure has evolved in that time. A lot of people not all, including myself have opted to do things solo or join groups for raids and reaper hosted quests. This can leave new players at a loss for finding groups, and when they do, they are most likely reaper difficulty. Most of these new players will feel overwhelmed in a reaper quest with random generated gear and possibly sub-par builds. I agree it can be tough to lure new players into the game the way it is, but I don't see the dynamic changing in the near future, and sadly that could be the games undoing.
Full disclosure, I like Reaper Mode and am not advocating for it's abolishment.

[Sqrlmonger]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any game where a veteran player isn't slowed down by helping a new player. Chess, monopoly, baseball, tabletop D&D... some players are helpers by nature or by choice, some are self centered by nature or choice - that's all it comes down to.

That's not on anyone but the player.

This is really an oversimplification, and I have to note (for good reason) that all of your examples are games primarily played face to face which substantially changes the interpersonal dynamics.

Either way, of course new players slow vets down in almost every game, that is the nature of things to be sure. Except chess, that was probably a bad example, in chess the game actually goes faster against new players (e.g. Fool's Mate and their general lack of awareness of multiple pieces threatening unprotected squares around the king).

Regardless, the question really isn't if new players slow vets down (since as we seem to agree, they will regardless), it's how much does the game do to make that situation better or worse for the new player?

People have long suggested teleports to quests for example. But even that would likely reduce the rate at which they learned and is not very ideal as a solution to this problem, even if it would be a nice perk generally.

The thing is, if you take the narrow view of "helping new players" as only referring to the one specific quest they are currently in. Then the problem seems intractable and they are always going to slow you down to some degree. But, if you take even a moderately wider view of "helping new players" as incentivizing them to do the things that are most likely to help them learn and grow as a player then you're actually on the cusp of solving the problem.

For example, your examples above were largely face to face, and this is for good reason. When people have emotional investment, even a small amount, in another person they are much more willing to assist them. But when you're not even sure if you're ever going to see the person again we are FAR less likely to assist. So for that reason, probably the best thing you can do for a new player is get them into an active guild with veteran players that speak their language. At that point if they have basic communication skills they are likely to make a friend or two and maybe even get into raids. Before long they will be learning the ins and outs of quests, running raids, learning about kickass builds, etc..

But how to make this happen? I won't claim to have the foolproof solution, but I do think that is the key problem to solve. Namely, how do we funnel new players into guilds with vet players?

I'm open to any/all ideas on that front, but...

My modest proposal would be some sort of guild buff benefit for recruiting a new player (defined as a premium account that is something like 90-180 days old or less) that provides the guild a +1% chance for named item drops from chests per such account to some maximum (5 or 10 for example).

Now both parties are benefiting from the pairing of the new player with the vets, and after 3-6 months they no longer count and the guild needs to recruit a new new player to retain their benefit.

Further, these "new players" should not count against guild size as the current renown system scaling is one of the things encourage fragmentation of the player base (i.e. lots of small guilds rather than a few big ones).

[Marshal_Lannes]

Generally, most players in DDO are helpful. It's even fairly commonplace for people to put up loot for roll in raids. Sure, some people move really fast through quests. But that doesn't mean they are against new people that's just how they like to play. Some of it also is dependent on who posts on the LFM panel. Usually, it's the same group of players and a number of those people are doing TR lives maximizing quest efficiency often with an XP pot going.

I've been in very fast groups before and it's not a pace I can sustain for more than a few hours. When you're moving so fast you don't even have time to grab gear it starts to feel like I'm running a sub 5-minute mile and I need to find a more leisurely pace. Like most issues in DDO, this stems from a population problem. For example, this is never an issue on Hardcore where groups are almost always helpful and slow(er) moving both due to higher risks but also the large number of available grouping choices. On a typical day on Orien during off hours, you might have two groups within your level range to choose from. During prime hours those might expand some, especially in epics. Still, a player is more subject to the leadership style of a small handful of group leaders and if that doesn't match up with their preferred playstyle then the gaming experience could be less than ideal.

I post a lot of LFMs and the most enjoyable game sessions are when my gameplay matches up with the people in the group. This isn't exactly a revelation. It's a lot like a basketball team, when players have similar styles and are compatible the game flows and is more fun for everyone. If you throw in a super zerger with someone who likes to do optionals or get breakables then you have the possibility of conflict. I and another player really clashed at first over something like this and it wasn't until we came to understand how each liked to play that we were able to have fun grouping.

Ultimately, people posting on the LFM panel do a lot of the heavy lifting in keeping the game active. Communication solves a lot of issues. If a group isn't moving in a manner that makes you comfortable talk about it in a non-hostile manner and more often then not the issue can be worked out.

[adamkatt]

They need a classic server that slow releases content on a scheduled basis. And drop the reincarnation garbage. Go back to the original vision of what this MMO was supposed to be.

you may want to try wow i hear they do this stuff. I personally dont want to go back to the lvl cap 10 days.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

It's a social thing.

These years I notice a more and more self-centered behaviour - both within games and in Real Life.
People are more and more only bothered with "how can I maximize my own life ?" than to help others.

I notice the difference quite sharply, because I'm working in a social foirm dedicated to give handicapped people and people with chronic illnesses good work they can handle.
In this firm, people are so much more helpful and friendly towards one another - like I seldom see it in Real Life, except when the person which needs help is an elderly person.

But especially among younger people, there has spread a sense of "competition" over everything.

Competition has become THE thing in games - and that's something built by game developers. MOBAS and MMOs in general are about competition, and there are currently no "social" MMOs out there - I mean games dedidacted for "working together" themes.

DDO is one of the - imho - more social MMOs, because EVERYONE contributes to a quest - and there is (usually) 1 chest at the end of the dungeon, with *everyone* getting some loot. In other games, there is much more hassle (SWTOR for example recently removed the "master looter" function from Raids, which meant that a raid's "master" could give the loot to all raid members. This had let to some grief throughout the years with some raid starting players proclaiming the "master" function for themselves and taking ALL or at least the best loot for themselves).

We currently live - imho - in an age of competition and "I want it all and I want it now" mind set.
There's no fixing for that, especially with developers doing more and more competitive games.Remember, cooperative games are just brand new, almost. There are so few of them that they easily reach press spotlight like an Unicorn.
Even in board games, cooperative games are still fairly new, like 10 years or so (in board games, things like fashions go slower).

My personal opinion is, that competitive games are something rather made by male developers for a male gamer audience. And since this is something that won't change easily, we'll see games being made to be competitive well into the future.

One of the reasons for this situation is the game itself encourages faster completion.

XP pots are based on time, too huge grind of TR hamster wheels, etc.

I don't think so. It is purely a player's choice to let oneself get drawn into this or not. You could say at any time : "No, I won't join this competition."

Me, for example, I play DDO for recreation, for escapism even. I do not wish to join any form of "competition".
The only exception I make of this rule is the guild runs I participate with, and I'm glad that I'm in a super helpful guild.

[fatherpirate]

& based on the numbers we know DDO would be even bigger cash cow ifn they advertised

that is a big assumption that (apparently) SSG does not agree with.
It is fairly easy to see why SSG is pitting their few $ into LOTRO ads.
There is that new LOTR series coming down the pipe.

[Oxarhamar]

that is a big assumption that (apparently) SSG does not agree with.
It is fairly easy to see why SSG is pitting their few $ into LOTRO ads.
There is that new LOTR series coming down the pipe.

Incorrect the assumption is yourn apparently it has to do with licensing for advertising

D&D has new film coming down & a far larger fan base btw

SSG & WoTC should be advertising DDO
WoTC adverts so really terrible games that all has to do with how it’s licensed there


Last time I had heard of any advert was 2015 Facebook sponsored post so it’s not that it’s never happened but yep they should be

Only reason LoTRO is bigger right now is the advertising if know one knew about the goings on no one new or returned would be there

there isn’t even a email targeted to all previously registered accounts letting them know there is dinosaurs which has been an ask as long as the game has been in Eberron

[ChaosBuddha]

what do u mean by "they drag you through quests"?

and what do u want them to do instead?

[Weemadarthur]

I dunno I see just as many if not more groups that are helpful

I think what is really killing the game is no adverts to bring new players & no email campaign to notify past players of new updates

OK from previous discussions on this topic you know I agree with this sentiment but there is a caveat I think you should also take into consideration. Unless they fix the servers and make the game stable 1st how many new players do you honestly think this game could handle? Then when the performance becomes bad how many do you think would stay?

I honestly think sorting the play-ability of the game should be the 1st step before pushing for any marketing. Marketing the game in its current state would probably do more harm than good (bad reps spread fast and become very tough to overcome).

[Oxarhamar]

OK from previous discussions on this topic you know I agree with this sentiment but there is a caveat I think you should also take into consideration. Unless they fix the servers and make the game stable 1st how many new players do you honestly think this game could handle? Then when the performance becomes bad how many do you think would stay?

I honestly think sorting the play-ability of the game should be the 1st step before pushing for any marketing. Marketing the game in its current state would probably do more harm than good (bad reps spread fast and become very tough to overcome).

Yeah that could use work we all know but games with high populations all expriance lag and even wait times to play

I think Hardcore is a good demonstration of how the game would handle it

It cerntainly isnt witjout needing work still I think there shpuld be both adverts & work on thst at once

[fatherpirate]

Incorrect the assumption is yourn apparently it has to do with licensing for advertising

D&D has new film coming down & a far larger fan base btw

SSG & WoTC should be advertising DDO
WoTC adverts so really terrible games that all has to do with how it’s licensed there


Last time I had heard of any advert was 2015 Facebook sponsored post so it’s not that it’s never happened but yep they should be

Only reason LoTRO is bigger right now is the advertising if know one knew about the goings on no one new or returned would be there

there isn’t even a email targeted to all previously registered accounts letting them know there is dinosaurs which has been an ask as long as the game has been in Eberron

...whatever

[archest]

you make your own lfm public and do elite so no reaper players who are trying for points and xp join.
you will get mostly new players who die too much in reaper .
you can explore as well on hard not many will join hard but you can learn the quest and optional's at your own pace and do over level quests as well.
once players start to join and ask to do higher levels R1 for example make sure you have a hire lealer portable shrine for your spell caster.
remember its your group you can bring a hire unless the players are maxed and you drop so another can join.
even still you will get a zerger now and then looking for xp and not exploration for the game experience not the character xp.

eventually you will get reaper but still its to me sucks because of the healing debuffs.
always playing catch up to those players who have massive hit points and PPR so they dont need to heal and you do being 1st life and stuff.
by the time you reach your third life and have developed your character with understanding of the stats you need to increase your abilities. you understand DDO.