The real reason this game is dying.

[myliftkk_v2]

DDO's attrition is the same reason it's always been. Gaming moved on with big strides and DDO made zero serious investment in future proofing its gameplay (which would have required overhauling AI). They squandered their strategic advantage (which honestly I think they lucked out with) with active combat which bought them more runway than the rest of the game features combined. DDO has stalled out as an essentially rpg system that was advanced for their day, but is now clung to by sunk cost fallacies. It like someone being addicted to Temple of Apashi (sic) and refusing to see the gold box games were better implementations.

Elden Ring just broke new ground with the future of active combat with smarter enemies (although even there, there can be big leaps forward with big data tools), open world, resource/crafting, and it only awaits the snap on component of formal MMO (it already has grouping in a limited sense).

I could care less where DDO goes anymore, as gaming is moving closer and closer to what I've wanted in gaming regardless: reactive enemies, open worlds, resource/crafting, and transitory grouping, all seamless, all integrated, all beautiful.

[cmecu]

If I am working on something like when I grinded out all my racial past lives x3 , I basically didnt group for the entire year it took me to do them all. I ran solo, didnt make my runs public, because I am working on a project and didnt want to be slowed down by having to go back to find someone lost, or rez someone dead. I jump over and run past everything and kill stuff at end, get out.
But if I am just casually playing, then I open it up and make sure to explain the dungeon to people and just have fun. What people probably shouldnt do is if they are running speed quests, then not to have a public group, or advertise speed runs, no waiting if they do make it public.

DDO still maintains one of the unique qualities of a game and that is character progression. Something that most other games dont have and that is what draws many people to this game, and of course the lore of Dungeons and Dragons.

[cmecu]

He is totally right. I know you never accept a different viewpoint, but D&D has at least ten times the “following”, if not more. Most people that know what LotR is doesn’t really “follow it”. D&D was likened to a cult and even called worse when I was growing up in the 80s/90s because the followers were so avid. The problem is Neverwinter gets more attraction because the advertising it received, despite DDO character development being far superior. The other issue is that most newer potential players that follow, prefer 5e and DDO is a step back to 3.5e, so they do not understand this game as well as us old fogies that used to play the old Red Box original and then later grew into 2e/3e/3.5e.

Still compared to most fantasy MMOs, no other compares to the character development process of true multi-classing, TRing, etc. I still am not a big fan of EDs (old or new version). I think this is where the game failed that character development. I would have rather see a chosen path at level 20 with a feat/ability selection process taken at each epic level. I think EDs, and especially the new one with the DP system of spending is kind of lame and kind of dilutes gaining epic levels and eventually legendary levels. Making it too similar to the prestige system in heroics was the biggest mistake Turbine/SSG made in my opinion.

Ah yes the ole red box starter set. I started my playing with the solo adventure where you read the narration and played the walk through. We did eventually move into 2e. I tried 3.5, 4, pathfinder.. glanced at 5e.. but to me personally nothing compares to 2e. That was more focusing on role playing and general game play, more imagination, instead of strict rules of the newer combat system that you need a Doctorate in just to understand how it all works. The simpler the better.

[Inanout]

In reference of Elden Ring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Qq8pvHzSs
It seems odd this Dev having time to promote a different game.

[cmecu]

It only takes 1 person to try to organize a rally to get more people. If that 1 person got 99 other people dedicated to spend a little of their own money, each printing 1000 fliers with something DDO on it, website, maybe some graphic, short paragraph about the game.. take those 1000 fliers out to 10 different highly populated areas and put 100 copies at each location ..College campus, shopping mall, hit places with older and younger crowds.. 100 people passing out 1000 fliers.. thats 100000 possible new players.. even if you got 1000 people to give it a try, they may tell their friends about it.. Although I dont think the servers can handle an influx of people. So that idea may come back to bite

[fatherpirate]

DDO's attrition is the same reason it's always been. Gaming moved on with big strides and DDO made zero serious investment in future proofing its gameplay (which would have required overhauling AI). They squandered their strategic advantage (which honestly I think they lucked out with) with active combat which bought them more runway than the rest of the game features combined. DDO has stalled out as an essentially rpg system that was advanced for their day, but is now clung to by sunk cost fallacies. It like someone being addicted to Temple of Apashi (sic) and refusing to see the gold box games were better implementations.

Elden Ring just broke new ground with the future of active combat with smarter enemies (although even there, there can be big leaps forward with big data tools), open world, resource/crafting, and it only awaits the snap on component of formal MMO (it already has grouping in a limited sense).

I could care less where DDO goes anymore, as gaming is moving closer and closer to what I've wanted in gaming regardless: reactive enemies, open worlds, resource/crafting, and transitory grouping, all seamless, all integrated, all beautiful.

well said

[festasha]

Improvements need to be made to encourage new players to join and actually stay as well as keep the existing player base interested. I think the game needs to have all the recent content that was given free via the code set as the new standard content for all new players and maybe make levels 1-5 available on any difficulty so the new players can feel the challenge/wipe. If DDO feels like it needs the code to draw in new players then so be it, but it does need to be a permanent offer.

Tutorials should definitely be improved. I recently got a friend into playing and if it wasn't for the help he received from myself and my guildmates then I don't think he would have hung around.
The current generic builds on character creation are not exactly optimized and after talking him through everything we used his lesser heart of wood and also took him to meet up with Fred to sort out his character. I think all first lifers that are new to the game should get unlimited respec options at no cost so they can play about and learn how to build their characters.

Overall the game does have many bugs and lag issues that need addressing as that doesn't give a good image to new players when they are rubber banding or dc'ing from the game or unable to communicate in the chat servers.
I can only hope that the population of the game doesn't get too small that DDO ceases to exist and SSG can take this game to new heights.
I do feel that drawing people in to become a VIP could be great for the game providing the money made does go back into investing in the game and not just a cash cow.
Let's hope that the staffing levels can go up and the bugs can be ironed out once and for all.

[KoobTheProud]

DDO is in the strangest maintenance mode ever. New content is coming out from a small but dedicated dev group. Bug fixes are slowly getting checked off the list. Profits are likely in slight decline but not by much - there is a consistent revenue stream.

My guess is that part of what makes this work for SSG is that they have two IP's they are servicing and if need be they can flex some assets over from LotRO temporarily to make DDO's release schedule work. Also I think they probably were using outsources in Eastern Europe/Ukraine/Russia to handle engineering updates for the client. This was cheaper than having in-house people that have to be paid on a continuous basis.

However my guess is that DDO is reaching an inflection point where all of that will start to degrade and the maintenance mode part of the equation will become more significant. I leave to go do other things for months and then come back and it's always performance issues and lack of effective population that drive me away again. To me this means that the two most significant problems with DDO are not being addressed in a meaningful way over time. Resources are being pushed hard to keep the game appearing fresh with content releases but the underlying issues are not addressed.

[fatherpirate]

took a look at Elden Ring
..... not my style

[Eantarus]

took a look at Elden Ring
..... not my style

Just another dumb action RPG.

[LittleLexi]

In reference of Elden Ring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Qq8pvHzSs
It seems odd this Dev having time to promote a different game.

Bizarre comment. Devs(and indeed DDO streamers) are allowed to enjoy and play other games with their free time.

[Oxarhamar]

In reference of Elden Ring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Qq8pvHzSs
It seems odd this Dev having time to promote a different game.

Lol

[Inanout]

Bizarre comment. Devs(and indeed DDO streamers) are allowed to enjoy and play other games with their free time.

The thread is about why the game is dying.
If even the devs do not play it more then casually that says a lot.
Only my opinion of course.

[LittleLexi]

The thread is about why the game is dying.
If even the devs do not play it more then casually that says a lot.
Only my opinion of course.

How does the fact that a dev plays other games make it so they can't also possibly play or work on DDO "more than casually"? If you have been paying attention– you will know that Lynnabel has been absolutely prolific in the work they have done for DDO, as well demonstrating deep understanding of the game's mechanics and code; not to mention a real desire to want to communicate and elicit feedback from the community in making DDO better. I honestly believe they are the best thing to happen to this game since it went F2P.

Also: it is a good thing that devs play other games. Whether it be for relaxation(balance is important in life), keeping up with what other modern games are doing, and for gleaning what sort of things that these games do that could or can't work in DDO. It's important for getting the creative juices flowing. Would you rather that all they ever did in life was think about and work on DDO? I'm certain that would yield poor results.

This video in question, and the show that Strimtom does on his channel with Lynnabel, is actually very insightful in understanding how a dev thinks about things and the approach they take toward complications. If you take the time to listen intently– you might actually find it enlightening.

I'm sure, like all of us, you care about the game and want the best for it. But with this particular example– I have to say that your criticism is misplaced.

[SoVeryBelgian]

Old code. Old bones.

Aged graphics, Aged gameplay.


I like it fine, but the youth of today [read: anyone below 35] are probably looking for more toothsome entertainment.



I wouldn't even recommend this game to DnD PnP enthusiasts. They probably end up playing Baldur's Gate / Neverwinter Nights.



As for what to do about it... more content. Meep.

[Lynnabel]

How does the fact that a dev plays other games make it so they can't also possibly play or work on DDO "more than casually"? If you have been paying attention– you will know that Lynnabel has been absolutely prolific in the work they have done for DDO, as well demonstrating deep understanding of the game's mechanics and code; not to mention a real desire to want to communicate and elicit feedback from the community in making DDO better. I honestly believe they are the best thing to happen to this game since it went F2P.

Also: it is a good thing that devs play other games. Whether it be for relaxation(balance is important in life), keeping up with what other modern games are doing, and for gleaning what sort of things that these games do that could or can't work in DDO. It's important for getting the creative juices flowing. Would you rather that all they ever did in life was think about and work on DDO? I'm certain that would yield poor results.

This video in question, and the show that Strimtom does on his channel with Lynnabel, is actually very insightful in understanding how a dev thinks about things and the approach they take toward complications. If you take the time to listen intently– you might actually find it enlightening.

I'm sure, like all of us, you care about the game and want the best for it. But with this particular example– I have to say that your criticism is misplaced.

Heh, thank you! I have to say this is probably the best compliment I've ever gotten here on the forums :)

[LittleLexi]

Heh, thank you! I have to say this is probably the best compliment I've ever gotten here on the forums

Well, you deserve it

It's easy for us players to constantly point out all the things that are broken, or that we want done. Not as forthcoming– but equally important– is giving credit where it is due. And it is. DDO has gone through dark stages and periods of being in limbo. It's incredible to me that years later– we are still here and still getting new content, fixes, and communication. That is genuinely amazing. And for that– I, at least, am grateful.

[CSQ]

Not to derail the thread, which I think is a false premise and has been started a thousand times over the last ten years to no avail, but there has been some real odd stuff about Elden Ring. Particularly, someone said something along the line that it advanced active combat (not sure why you would use this term- DDO used it to differentiate from GCD MMOs and Neverwinter Nights style real time turns which has no bearing on Elden Ring, which is just an action game) and mentioned the advancements in AI. If you want to invalidate your opinion, that's a good way to do it. The AI in Elden Ring is terrible- not only is it situationally unaware (except for some basic pathing) it also basically just reacts to inputs, which is a basic if>then relationship (and makes some abilities with delays great because enemies will roll into the attack, letting you execute it with impunity). DDO's AI, buggy and glitchy as it can be in some contexts (though some of the worst issues have been fixed for pets and hirelings after prolonged suffering), is probably more advanced than almost all Elden Ring AI except maybe a few bosses.

DDO does show its age, but it's not dying and that particular example is laughably incorrect. As someone who has put literal hundreds of hours into but DDO and Souls games, it's clear that someone didn't poke critically at the AI of both games. They're much more similar than they are different, it's just that DDO has had more ways to break their AI than Souls did until Elden Ring (which at least put up an invisible baby gate so bosses don't yeet themselves into the abyss as much).

[Elements]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

I can understand your perception and thought process on this sentiment. All I can tell you as a 15 year veteran of DDO why I personally no longer care to help new players. I did for many years at least 6 or 7 years, I personally got frustrated helping, teaching, and giving new players advice knowledge and resources for them to play for maybe a year or LESS just to quit. No reciprocation of my guilds time effort and resources donated to them. They just leave and after a year or two of not logging on we would just boot them from the guild. I can’t speak for everyone but myself and others in my guild have mentioned this same thing. Even if they are kind enough to tell you they are leaving and may even give you back some of your resources the time is lost. The raid loot is lost, my attitude now is more like learn like I did by experience, no handouts from me just to quit. I guess what I’m saying is look at it from another perspective, DDO is complicated, difficult to learn and requires a large investment in terms of time when you consider past lives bound items the acquisition of scrolls shards and seals in the past. ( Just to know that person who just quit after 9 months took the shard of the spell storing ring or SoS with him.) So yeah I’m really not interested in helping you, without a ROI.

[Oxarhamar]

Not to derail the thread, which I think is a false premise and has been started a thousand times over the last ten years to no avail, but there has been some real odd stuff about Elden Ring. Particularly, someone said something along the line that it advanced active combat (not sure why you would use this term- DDO used it to differentiate from GCD MMOs and Neverwinter Nights style real time turns which has no bearing on Elden Ring, which is just an action game) and mentioned the advancements in AI. If you want to invalidate your opinion, that's a good way to do it. The AI in Elden Ring is terrible- not only is it situationally unaware (except for some basic pathing) it also basically just reacts to inputs, which is a basic if>then relationship (and makes some abilities with delays great because enemies will roll into the attack, letting you execute it with impunity). DDO's AI, buggy and glitchy as it can be in some contexts (though some of the worst issues have been fixed for pets and hirelings after prolonged suffering), is probably more advanced than almost all Elden Ring AI except maybe a few bosses.

DDO does show its age, but it's not dying and that particular example is laughably incorrect. As someone who has put literal hundreds of hours into but DDO and Souls games, it's clear that someone didn't poke critically at the AI of both games. They're much more similar than they are different, it's just that DDO has had more ways to break their AI than Souls did until Elden Ring (which at least put up an invisible baby gate so bosses don't yeet themselves into the abyss as much).

True

While I have not played Rings I agree DDOs AI & Combat is way ahead of many other games I have played even if it’s dated