The real reason this game is dying.

[asinann]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

[boredGamer]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

The only time I’ve see vets ever not embrace a new player with open arms is when that new player makes a point of being an anchor as much as possible.

“Follow me”. Doesn’t follow.
“Where do I go ? Stop leaving me”. When the new player won’t follow you.
Won’t follow the map at all. Just look at the direction the 5 other dots went. Go that way.

Insisting on end rewards, won’t red door, I had a player CRUNCH CRAFTING SHARDS mid quest chain and wouldn’t keep questing, etc.

Yeah if you’re a huge pita people might treat you that way , but if you’re in any way trying to keep up everyone is super supportive.

[C-Dog]

Are you saying there are some people who both play this game and have no patience for new players?

<shocked>

I was with a group just today that, specifically, both waited and guided a new player, blind, to the quest we were in. Wasn't easy, they were more than a little confoozled, but we did it.


So... I guess what we're saying here is... it's the internet?

[Memnir]

This game has the same percentage of jerks who play it as any other game I've partaken of. No more, no less.
I'm sorry if you ran afoul of some of the jerks - it sucks when that happens. If you are having fun, then give it some time to suck less and to find the good groups again. If you weren't, then the jerks were just the icing on the I'm Leaving cake.

In short, I'm sorry you found some of the jerks. They suck.

[tsotate]

The players act the way that game systems incentivize them to act, so that's still on the devs.

[LittleLexi]

This is an unfortunate consequence of the game catering to a certain player demographic over the years(much of the casual playerbase has long since moved on). Even people who might consider themselves decent folks are– in DDOland– unlikely to forego the efficiency of their XP gains, in favour of helping a new player along. And simply carrying their soul stone to a shrine– or to the end of the quest so that they, too, can gain XP and or Reaper points– is not what I consider being particularly helpful or friendly.

Imagine this scenario... You're playing soccer in the park, when you notice a young kid look on from the sidelines with both eagerness and trepidation. So you invite them to join your match. But they are clearly less skilled, mobile, or physical – you name it. So you and your buddies just keep doing your own thing. Never passing the ball to the newcomer. Never slowing the game down so that the newbie can partake. Never setting it up so that they, too, can score and feel great. This is what it's like and has been like for many new or returning players in DDO. Does that really sound like a good time?

And I get it. People are free to prioritize their own time(and game time) however they wish. There is no obligation on the DDO vet decreeing that they must go out of their way to help a new player. But I ask you– surely in the above example of playing soccer in the park– you would not be so snobbish or self-seeking? I'd like to think most of you– in that scenario– would be much more inclusive. So why don't you do it in DDO? Does it really matter that you get that 105th past life this week and not next month? More so than spending some evenings, here and there, propping up a new player to a stage that they can truly enjoy and learn from? Witnessing someone discover this game we love and revel in it provides more joy than any quest/raid completion or item pull– I promise you. Some of these players may end up becoming long time guildies, friends and more, if given the chance. We just need to sacrifice a smidge of our time to make it happen.

Please don't get me wrong– there are still a bunch of really good and helpful people in the community(so don't lose hope if you're new!). And the devs have done a bit to atone for past mistakes in making DDO more accessible. But they can, and should, do more. We, as a community, should do more. DnD is more popular than ever. And the opportunity to attract and keep heaps of curious folks is ripe for the taking.

DDO is definitely not dying. Not if I can help it

[C-Dog]

The players act the way that game systems incentivize them to act...

Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any game where a veteran player isn't slowed down by helping a new player. Chess, monopoly, baseball, tabletop D&D... some players are helpers by nature or by choice, some are self centered by nature or choice - that's all it comes down to.

That's not on anyone but the player.

[Caarb]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any game where a veteran player isn't slowed down by helping a new player. Chess, monopoly, baseball, tabletop D&D... some players are helpers by nature or by choice, some are self centered by nature or choice - that's all it comes down to.

That's not on anyone but the player.

Final Fantasy 14 has systems in place to encourage you to help new players (sprouts) such as increased rewards etc

[Sqrlmonger]

Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any game where a veteran player isn't slowed down by helping a new player. Chess, monopoly, baseball, tabletop D&D... some players are helpers by nature or by choice, some are self centered by nature or choice - that's all it comes down to.

That's not on anyone but the player.

This is really an oversimplification, and I have to note (for good reason) that all of your examples are games primarily played face to face which substantially changes the interpersonal dynamics.

Either way, of course new players slow vets down in almost every game, that is the nature of things to be sure. Except chess, that was probably a bad example, in chess the game actually goes faster against new players (e.g. Fool's Mate and their general lack of awareness of multiple pieces threatening unprotected squares around the king).

Regardless, the question really isn't if new players slow vets down (since as we seem to agree, they will regardless), it's how much does the game do to make that situation better or worse for the new player?

People have long suggested teleports to quests for example. But even that would likely reduce the rate at which they learned and is not very ideal as a solution to this problem, even if it would be a nice perk generally.

The thing is, if you take the narrow view of "helping new players" as only referring to the one specific quest they are currently in. Then the problem seems intractable and they are always going to slow you down to some degree. But, if you take even a moderately wider view of "helping new players" as incentivizing them to do the things that are most likely to help them learn and grow as a player then you're actually on the cusp of solving the problem.

For example, your examples above were largely face to face, and this is for good reason. When people have emotional investment, even a small amount, in another person they are much more willing to assist them. But when you're not even sure if you're ever going to see the person again we are FAR less likely to assist. So for that reason, probably the best thing you can do for a new player is get them into an active guild with veteran players that speak their language. At that point if they have basic communication skills they are likely to make a friend or two and maybe even get into raids. Before long they will be learning the ins and outs of quests, running raids, learning about kickass builds, etc..

But how to make this happen? I won't claim to have the foolproof solution, but I do think that is the key problem to solve. Namely, how do we funnel new players into guilds with vet players?

I'm open to any/all ideas on that front, but...

My modest proposal would be some sort of guild buff benefit for recruiting a new player (defined as a premium account that is something like 90-180 days old or less) that provides the guild a +1% chance for named item drops from chests per such account to some maximum (5 or 10 for example).

Now both parties are benefiting from the pairing of the new player with the vets, and after 3-6 months they no longer count and the guild needs to recruit a new new player to retain their benefit.

Further, these "new players" should not count against guild size as the current renown system scaling is one of the things encourage fragmentation of the player base (i.e. lots of small guilds rather than a few big ones).

[LittleLexi]

...My modest proposal would be some sort of guild buff benefit for recruiting a new player (defined as a premium account that is something like 90-180 days old or less) that provides the guild a +1% chance for named item drops from chests per such account to some maximum (5 or 10 for example).

Now both parties are benefiting from the pairing of the new player with the vets, and after 3-6 months they no longer count and the guild needs to recruit a new new player to retain their benefit.

You make some good points. But I don't think such a solution would work. Given how many DDO players are power gaming types(part of the issue)– they will look for any way to min-max their XP/loot gain; even if it happens to be just 1%
This will lead to more spam invites, and more players ending up in guilds that aren't really a fit for them. I'm certain that some guilds would invite people just for the buff, and otherwise– not interact with the newbie at all. Furthermore, restricting it to just premium accounts will fail to serve the intended purpose, as many new players trying out a F2P game won't have invested anything yet. As well as leading to a form of discrimination where F2P are excluded from guilds due to their account status. But of course, without such a restriction in place, people would just abuse the system.

Borrowing from other games, something that could work is a sort of: "badge of honour" system. Like small, different coloured, "thumbs up" icons on a player's name or party UI, such as: Green for Good Teammate. Red for Great Leader. Blue for Helpful Person...and so forth. At the end of each dungeon– a player can "thumbs up" one of their party members in one of the categories. It would have to require a significant amount of "thumbs up" before the player would be granted the appropriate badge. And there could be a decay in effect; requiring that the player meet the threshold once more to regain the appropriate badge. There should also be a UI option to make them not visible, for those who would prefer not to see them. I also think it should be impossible to nominate anyone on your guild or friends list– to guard against nepotism. And possibly from other users on the same IP, as well– to prevent abuse from multi-clienters(add this to the many reasons why it should not be allowed). This may also incentivize people to PUG more, and include more non-guildies in their parties, more often.

---------------------

With regards to the LOTRO comparisons– I agree that DDO can use more, and better, marketing. But LOTRO has a few things going for it that DDO does not. Like a much bigger role-playing community, for a start. Some players over on that side are happy enough to spend their entire gaming sessions there doing things like: tilling soil and smoking pipe-weed, baking pies, decorating their homes, engaging in lite or heavy RP, among other things. There are even multiple servers dedicated to RP. DDO, on the other hand, doesn't do much to facilitate this; which is a bit odd if you think about it. For many folks who want to know what RP is, or want to try it out– D&D is one of the first and best methods for demonstrating this. Yet in its namesake MMO– there is hardly any of it at all! I find that rather tragic. There is so much that could be done to enliven DDO as a game and as a community, as pertaining to RP/attracting a wider audience. Heck, DDO had a wider audience before but– for whatever reason– the powers-that-be decided years ago to cater to a specific crowd. And thus we've ended up here.

I will give the devs some due credit. They have, in recent years, made playing DDO more accessible by giving away content and the like. They've given us some awesome new adventures in the low level ranges; which has aided against the aforementioned Korthos/Stormreach burnout. They have given us mounts. They have given us Hardcore League(great idea). They have given us new gear. They've given us new classes and universal enhancement trees. They have given us revamped Epic Destinies. They have done a lot of really brilliant stuff. But I really think– for the long-term health of the game and its community– it's time to spend considerable resources, with a view to revamping the new-player experience and to prioritize bringing in new players(and keeping them!). The Grotto and Korthos has its charm and it does a good job as an introduction(mostly). I don't want it done away with. But the beginner public zones could be better. Character creation could be a whole lot better. Things like: an obstacle course added in Korthos that is repeatable(for characters below level 5), and that (re)introduces players to jumping, swimming, blocking, using hirelings etc. It could also give a minor buff and some consumables upon completion. Or more "helper npcs" around with tips on how to use the chat & emote, use the Social panel, browse the Adventure Compendium etc. Both could go a long way toward providing a more positive foray into this wonderful game.

I still think that– while the devs navigate how to go about enacting all that– we as a community do have a responsibility, to some degree, as to the fate of our beloved game. Even a little thing like asking someone if they are new or need help– then, actually helping them– can make the world of a difference. What is the point of loot or XP if the community eventually dilutes to the point where the game ceases to exist?

[TFerguson]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

[rabidfox]

If someone says they're new/returning from a long break in party chat, I slow my roll, toss heals, help them find quests, etc. If a person doesn't say anything, I'll assume they're fine and will bounce around like normal.

[CSQ]

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

Someone not being as good at the game and impacting efficiency can be frustrating, I get it, but be gracious to other people instead of being a jerk. If you really don't want to group with new players who don't know what they're doing, make it clear in your LFG or group with people you know. However, being a jerk to someone because they cost you a minute in a TR grind or whatever isn't good for the health of the game. Even if someone does something that makes you not want to group with them, there isn't license given to be a jerk about it, and there are a few people (who disproportionately impact the population by being more vocal than others) who are toxic about it.

There is a significant difference between a response like "I'm sorry, but this is a group running some content at high difficulty and it doesn't seem like you're ready for that yet" and "Oh my God, I can't believe someone would (insert newbie error here), learn to play." I've seen even worse, though fortunately it is extremely rare. Even just returning after a time away and being rusty, I've made some real noob mistakes a couple times, and while 90% of the time people have been gracious, I have certainly met a few people who got extremely testy about insignificant errors that might cost a few seconds. I saw a group yesterday where someone messed up a pull, and instead of being angry and saying "drop group you suck" they explained what to do and what not to do and I'm sure it will result in better experiences for both the player making the mistake and other players who won't have to endure that player making the same mistake because they don't know why what they're doing is undesirable.

If you don't want someone in your group, tell them that you want experienced players and move on, but don't act like they're some kind of leech or burden just because they might not play like you want them to and it messed with your schedule.

Some people need to learn basic empathy. We all have to deal with jerks in the real world where most of us don't have the authority to straighten them out, don't be that problem in a *video game*. No one wants to log into a game and get yelled at, and while if a player consistently causes problems (after being shown what to do or asked to leave), I understand getting frustrated, if you're so hair trigger about things that your first reaction is "You're infringing on my time for trying to play a MMO in a public group and you don't know every little detail of the game perfectly and you can't speedrun R10 blindfolded" then you need to dial things back.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

It's a social thing.

These years I notice a more and more self-centered behaviour - both within games and in Real Life.
People are more and more only bothered with "how can I maximize my own life ?" than to help others.

I notice the difference quite sharply, because I'm working in a social foirm dedicated to give handicapped people and people with chronic illnesses good work they can handle.
In this firm, people are so much more helpful and friendly towards one another - like I seldom see it in Real Life, except when the person which needs help is an elderly person.

But especially among younger people, there has spread a sense of "competition" over everything.

Competition has become THE thing in games - and that's something built by game developers. MOBAS and MMOs in general are about competition, and there are currently no "social" MMOs out there - I mean games dedidacted for "working together" themes.

DDO is one of the - imho - more social MMOs, because EVERYONE contributes to a quest - and there is (usually) 1 chest at the end of the dungeon, with *everyone* getting some loot. In other games, there is much more hassle (SWTOR for example recently removed the "master looter" function from Raids, which meant that a raid's "master" could give the loot to all raid members. This had let to some grief throughout the years with some raid starting players proclaiming the "master" function for themselves and taking ALL or at least the best loot for themselves).

We currently live - imho - in an age of competition and "I want it all and I want it now" mind set.
There's no fixing for that, especially with developers doing more and more competitive games.Remember, cooperative games are just brand new, almost. There are so few of them that they easily reach press spotlight like an Unicorn.
Even in board games, cooperative games are still fairly new, like 10 years or so (in board games, things like fashions go slower).

My personal opinion is, that competitive games are something rather made by male developers for a male gamer audience. And since this is something that won't change easily, we'll see games being made to be competitive well into the future.

One of the reasons for this situation is the game itself encourages faster completion.

XP pots are based on time, too huge grind of TR hamster wheels, etc.

I don't think so. It is purely a player's choice to let oneself get drawn into this or not. You could say at any time : "No, I won't join this competition."

Me, for example, I play DDO for recreation, for escapism even. I do not wish to join any form of "competition".
The only exception I make of this rule is the guild runs I participate with, and I'm glad that I'm in a super helpful guild.

[ChrisTOTG]

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

Exactly! We as players aren't entitled to newbies' time. If we want them to spend time (and money!) in DDO, we need to show them that their time investment is worthwhile.

I'm sure that's what you meant to say.

[Eantarus]

If we want them to spend time (and money!) in DDO, we need to show them that their time investment is worthwhile.

Or make the investment less heinous. As it is now even if I really liked the game, if I were starting out new I'd feel like the game will die before I catch up.

[KoobTheProud]

Or make the investment less heinous. As it is now even if I really liked the game, if I were starting out new I'd feel like the game will die before I catch up.

The problem is beyond that and by a huge margin.

New players who might want to play the game because they are intrigued by the mechanics and the ability to craft characters will quickly do the math once they decide to give it a shot and realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

A very small fraction of the players who might be willing to invest in the game are still around at that point.

There are extreme costs involved in running a game that is populated by hundred+ live Methuselahs, even if those costs are hidden from view.

[rabidfox]

realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

So don't need to spend money (and/or grind DDO points) outside of grabbing content; but I personally think the free coupon needs to be around all the time.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

One doesn't need dozen of past lives to play the content unless ones goal is do push raiding into high skulls (and even then I've seen some 1st life tanks rock mid-skull raids). Myths about what people "need" probably scares some people off; I know when came back a few years ago from a long break, I believed some of the doom posts on the forums and it worried me, but later learned you can get away with a lot as long as you play the game, learn the mechanics, have a solid build, and farm out gear. Sure, some builds do better or worse than others without past lives, but it's fully viable to enjoy the game without that grind.

[Eantarus]

The problem is beyond that and by a huge margin.

New players who might want to play the game because they are intrigued by the mechanics and the ability to craft characters will quickly do the math once they decide to give it a shot and realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

A very small fraction of the players who might be willing to invest in the game are still around at that point.

There are extreme costs involved in running a game that is populated by hundred+ live Methuselahs, even if those costs are hidden from view.

That's exactly my point. They need to dramatically reduce the "costs"(both time and money) for new players to catch up if they want to keep the game alive.

[Shadospawn]

It’s a 16 year old game. We should feel pretty good about it still kicking and getting expansions.
Plenty of games don’t have that longevity, and it’s got nothing to do with the mean ole player base.