The real reason this game is dying.

[losian2]

DDO's attrition is the same reason it's always been. Gaming moved on with big strides and DDO made zero serious investment in future proofing its gameplay (which would have required overhauling AI). They squandered their strategic advantage (which honestly I think they lucked out with) with active combat which bought them more runway than the rest of the game features combined. DDO has stalled out as an essentially rpg system that was advanced for their day, but is now clung to by sunk cost fallacies. It like someone being addicted to Temple of Apashi (sic) and refusing to see the gold box games were better implementations.

Elden Ring just broke new ground with the future of active combat with smarter enemies (although even there, there can be big leaps forward with big data tools), open world, resource/crafting, and it only awaits the snap on component of formal MMO (it already has grouping in a limited sense).

I could care less where DDO goes anymore, as gaming is moving closer and closer to what I've wanted in gaming regardless: reactive enemies, open worlds, resource/crafting, and transitory grouping, all seamless, all integrated, all beautiful.

It amazes me that people can't look beyond Elden Ring's shiny coat. It's a solid game - but it's almost NOTHING new. It's Skyrim + Dark Souls. That's it. There is absolutely zero "breaking ground" with that game as far as "smarter enemies", "open world", or "resource/crafting."

Not a single fight in that game was impressive or remarkable AI wise, period. Numerous times they full on break and stop having AI at all and become effortless. That's not "new ground."

Crafting is.. non-existent? You find stuff and slap it together. You get recipes from books. There's.. literally nothing there remotely remarkable.

Open world.. how is it new ground? It's open, you run around, you punch stuff, you loot things. Elden Ring is a good combination of existing ideas.. it is zero "new ground." It has essentially no multiplayer unless you love not progressing with your friend or PVP for PVP's sake.

[HastyPudding]

I actually enjoy new players in quests! I like seeing their reactions to things and I have no trouble being patient with them.

That said, I dislike new players that don't state they're new and can't listen to basic instructions and information.

[DoctorOfLiterature]

I’ve been playing on Khyber for 1.5 years and have found many helpful vets. There are too many to name all but just a few:
Ioween saw me at the entrance to Night Revels completely clueless and took me through it. She also showed me how to get haste pots and heal mummy rot with curse and disease pots. She bought me a guest pass and introduced me to Sharn.

Death showed me how to farm items in particular he showed me how to R1s and helped me farm a ghost touch item. He used shards to reroll to get me that item. He showed me other tricks to be more effective in combat.

Epura literally left a quest in Meridia when I couldn’t find entrance and ran me to the quest. We leveled up together my first few past lives and she taught me so many tricks like where safe spots are and taught me how to play a Sorcerer.

Aeteran introduced me to his Discord channel and taught me about character building and gear synergy. He has helped me farm end game gear and taught me how to raid.

Dumbhorc is a guy I see every life for a few quests as he is on TR train and he always puts up lfms and welcomes newbies and takes time to guide them from one quest to next.

There are many others who have been supportive and passed named items. One time I was stuck in Flesh Makers and needed it to complete the Sigil so I could upgrade my Quiver. I put up a lfm after being in there 1.5 hours, unable to solo the final battle w the ruins. Two vets who had no interest in that quest but knew how frustrating those ruins are to solo joined and helped me complete. One gave me the mats I needed to upgrade the quiver! I had never played with either before.

Yes there were times where keeping up with zerging vets on Reaper seemed impossible but the vast majority of vets I’ve encountered on Khyber have been very helpful and friendly.

And there are game design features that could make game more cooperative.
Teleports to quests are so nice rather than long complex runs through wilderness designed to confuse.
Grouping xp bonus weekends always lead to more grouping.

I’ve said it before, but ability to teleport to group when you join would be a huge help to newbies.

[Ravenwolf1]

All these years later, I still love watching the dragon walking along under the ice beneath me; it's a got a classic D&D feel that's spot on.

That is my favorite part of that whole quest, I stop and watch everytime I run the quest!

[Ykt]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

I'm 99% sure you didn't tell them you were new/returning and needed directions.

When people post a public LFM, they know anyone can join.

[LT218]

How does the fact that a dev plays other games make it so they can't also possibly play or work on DDO "more than casually"? If you have been paying attention– you will know that Lynnabel has been absolutely prolific in the work they have done for DDO, as well demonstrating deep understanding of the game's mechanics and code;

Counterpoint - Knowing the code and technical mechanics does not automatically correlate to knowing how to play the game well beyond a casual level. Nor does it correlate to having a good understanding of how changes to the numbers affect the overall in-game experience.

Sure, they can see the literal code, but empirical evidence repeatedly suggests they have poor testing procedures and lack a good understanding of the actual in-game impact their code changes cause. This is repeatedly displayed in the over-reaching nerfs, constant breaking of things, and them constantly being victims of the law of unintended consequences in pretty much every update.


Supporting evidence:
My friends and I have had at least one dev in our group multiple times and they played at a casual skill level at best. When we were running higher skull end-game content, they were pretty much a spectator whenever they weren't a soul stone.

Does the recent Shiradi evo caster nerf ring a bell? The original nerf numbers apparently looked good to a dev, yet as soon as players saw the numbers it was blatantly apparent the devs failed to take into account multiple factors and variables related to actual gameplay. It's the classic "sterile lab testing with limited, controlled variables versus real world application" failure.

Anyone remember the OG Warlock nerfs? Those overreaching nerfs reduced Warlocks to nothing but flavor builds for years. Even repeater crossbow Artificers were glad they weren't a Warlock after that.

Remember a dev claiming that a Henshin quarterstaff build was one of the top 7 DPS builds in the entire game before completely gutting the Henshin tree simply to fix a power and itemization problem with *handwrap* monks?

Remember the devs internal testing showing them that Inquisitives' DPS was exactly where it should be until *oops* suddenly it wasn't? And apparently their internal data was orders of magnitudes off since it required nerfing Inquisitive DPS by more than 40% net. Worse, they didn't just fix the problem with Inquisitives. Instead, they wrecked pretty much ALL aspects of ranged DPS down to flavor-build status. IPS is nothing but a waste of a feat slot now thanks to their *understanding* of the code since it effectively saddles you with a double-penalty (-20% for turning on IPS plus the opportunity cost of of 15/25 stacks of Archer's Focus).

Razorclaw iconic - racial handwraps tree that cannot even splash levels of the only class that make handwraps halfway decent DPS? There's a reason monks have to have all kinds of special bonuses to handwraps to make them halfway respectable DPS and the Razorclaw is missing a majority of those. Clearly one or more of the devs thought this would be good, but it's not.

The list goes on.

[LittleLexi]

Counterpoint - Knowing the code and technical mechanics does not automatically correlate to knowing how to play the game well beyond a casual level. Nor does it correlate to having a good understanding of how changes to the numbers affect the overall in-game experience.

Sure, they can see the literal code, but empirical evidence repeatedly suggests they have poor testing procedures and lack a good understanding of the actual in-game impact their code changes cause. This is repeatedly displayed in the over-reaching nerfs, constant breaking of things, and them constantly being victims of the law of unintended consequences in pretty much every update.


Supporting evidence:
My friends and I have had at least one dev in our group multiple times and they played at a casual skill level at best. When we were running higher skull end-game content, they were pretty much a spectator whenever they weren't a soul stone.

Does the recent Shiradi evo caster nerf ring a bell? The original nerf numbers apparently looked good to a dev, yet as soon as players saw the numbers it was blatantly apparent the devs failed to take into account multiple factors and variables related to actual gameplay. It's the classic "sterile lab testing with limited, controlled variables versus real world application" failure.

Anyone remember the OG Warlock nerfs? Those overreaching nerfs reduced Warlocks to nothing but flavor builds for years. Even repeater crossbow Artificers were glad they weren't a Warlock after that.

Remember a dev claiming that a Henshin quarterstaff build was one of the top 7 DPS builds in the entire game before completely gutting the Henshin tree simply to fix a power and itemization problem with *handwrap* monks?

Remember the devs internal testing showing them that Inquisitives' DPS was exactly where it should be until *oops* suddenly it wasn't? And apparently their internal data was orders of magnitudes off since it required nerfing Inquisitive DPS by more than 40% net. Worse, they didn't just fix the problem with Inquisitives. Instead, they wrecked pretty much ALL aspects of ranged DPS down to flavor-build status. IPS is nothing but a waste of a feat slot now thanks to their *understanding* of the code since it effectively saddles you with a double-penalty (-20% for turning on IPS plus the opportunity cost of of 15/25 stacks of Archer's Focus).

Razorclaw iconic - racial handwraps tree that cannot even splash levels of the only class that make handwraps halfway decent DPS? There's a reason monks have to have all kinds of special bonuses to handwraps to make them halfway respectable DPS and the Razorclaw is missing a majority of those. Clearly one or more of the devs thought this would be good, but it's not.

The list goes on.

Your post just illustrates to me that you have a very narrow view of what being a DDO dev, and player– for that matter – entails. It always amazes me that people complain incessantly about nerfs when you consider that most of DDO is people zerging through quests and barely interacting with the dungeon and its encounters. Why? Because it is that easy, and because XP is obsessed over. If the devs have failed at anything– it is facilitating this play style and mindset, above all else. This also leads to situations as described by the initial poster of this thread.

But the game is very deep. And the devs don't always get things such as balance quite right. Inquisitive is a poignant example. I, too, voiced my displeasure at its numerous blemishes(and it still has some). I hope they learned from it and do better going forward. They also do plenty of good work too. And that deserves recognition. The fact that they engage with us on a somewhat regular basis, also warrants appreciation. And the best way to demonstrate that they might have got some numbers wrong is with well-meaning and well-constructed posts showing your work. They might not always act on it, but the devs have shown they do, at least, listen. That counts for something, in my book.

[LT218]

Your post just illustrates to me that you have a very narrow view of what being a DDO dev, and player– for that matter – entails.

None of what you posted after that proves anything to the contrary about this statement:

Counterpoint - Knowing the code and technical mechanics does not automatically correlate to knowing how to play the game well beyond a casual level. Nor does it correlate to having a good understanding of how changes to the numbers affect the overall in-game experience.

Sure, they can see the literal code, but empirical evidence repeatedly suggests they have poor testing procedures and lack a good understanding of the actual in-game impact their code changes cause. This is repeatedly displayed in the over-reaching nerfs, constant breaking of things, and them constantly being victims of the law of unintended consequences in pretty much every update.

You posted opinions, which you are obviously entitled to. I posted actual examples and evidence.

Never said the devs don't do anything good. But doing good doesn't change or erase the long list of mistakes and bad decisions they make.

[Weemadarthur]

But doing good doesn't change or erase the long list of mistakes and bad decisions they make.

This is actually key to a lot of the issues DDO faces. Everyone is aware that the dev team do a lot of bug fixes but at the same time everyone is aware that most of these bug fixes would be completely unnecessary if DDO had even a remotely passable QC system. It's human nature to focus on the bad rather than the good which is why good reputations are easy to lose but so hard to gain. DDO unfortunately now has a bad reputation that has been earned by constantly releasing content without adequate testing containing bugs that should never have gone live. It won't matter how many of those bugs get fixed as human nature will home in on the fact that those bugs were released rather than the portion of them that got fixed.

To put this another way if you go to the shop and buy a bag of chocolate peanuts and half the bag turns out to be rat droppings would you really care if the shop offered to swap half those rat droppings back for chocolate peanuts?

[Khalesh]

Not read through all of this but I have been away from DDO for almost 2 years and came back about 2 months ago.

My experience so far has been quite the opposite to the OP.

When i state i have been away most players welcome me back.

I have been playing on and off since release so i know most of the stuff pre-Sharn well but for anything thats new, if i say i dont know it, I am either walked through it nicely or dont get any grief for essentially just piking the quest.

But also its really up to new/returning players to get familiar with the new stuff - play quests on normal or hard and not simply expect to join high Reaper groups when you have no reaper xp to speak off and expect to be hand held.

When i do run high level stuff on undergeared characters and mainly want the XP - again most players are happy to haul me through it as long as its not an R3+ group looking for similar level folks.

As a thank you i normally pass on any gear to the nice folks who are looking for something specific in an end chest

[Bjond]

It's not the players that make it unfriendly. As long as a newbie doesn't lurk (says they're new) and doesn't indulge in obvious boat-anchor behavior (eg. dashing off mid-arc to crunch mats), DDO players will go out of their way to include them in the group play.

The problem is SSG. From initial costs to fundamental play, this game has a steeper hill to climb than any other MMO I've played, and I'm including Aion and FFXI in that list. Long term players spent a great deal of time and money over that time. It didn't seem like much because it's over the span of 10+ years.

IMHO, the entire problem stems from SSG wanting new players to spend as much as old players; ie. buy each and every ancient expansion. It's all at once for a new player, though, not spread over years. DDO is the only MMO I know that does this and it creates an impassible mountain of a pay-wall for a newbie -- not in terms of actual cost, but from a value-comparison standpoint.

Buy-in is the single biggest reason I can't get anyone to try DDO. For such an old MMO, they're expecting $20 to buy literally everything, including the latest expansion -- not $200+. Add bugs that go unfixed for a decade, zero customer support even for VIP, horrific "balance", ultra-tiny player base, etc etc .. and it's pretty easy to see how word-of-mouth just won't cut it unless you're OK blatantly lying about the game.

[magical_oldude]

Buy-in is the single biggest reason I can't get anyone to try DDO. For such an old MMO, they're expecting $20 to buy literally everything, including the latest expansion -- not $200+. Add bugs that go unfixed for a decade, zero customer support even for VIP, horrific "balance", ultra-tiny player base, etc etc .. and it's pretty easy to see how word-of-mouth just won't cut it unless you're OK blatantly lying about the game.

This is the reason the game is dying. I'm a semi-casual that's been playing the game off and on since release and I've spent a lot of money on the game over the years - DDO points, xpacs, etc. I've tried to get friends and family into the game many times over the years. But Even when I have, on rare occasion, gotten someone to start playing the game, they quickly find out there is a large swath of content that they have to pay for if they want to experience the full game. Couple that cost with lag and bugs and in almost every instance they have quit and moved on to other games instead of paying for said content. The feedback I've gotten is the price-point to play all content in DDO offers less value than other newer games - but of course that's subjective.

[ChrisTOTG]

You are not entitled to other people's time. We're not your daddy.

Exactly! We as players aren't entitled to newbies' time. If we want them to spend time (and money!) in DDO, we need to show them that their time investment is worthwhile.

I'm sure that's what you meant to say.

[Eantarus]

If we want them to spend time (and money!) in DDO, we need to show them that their time investment is worthwhile.

Or make the investment less heinous. As it is now even if I really liked the game, if I were starting out new I'd feel like the game will die before I catch up.

[KoobTheProud]

Or make the investment less heinous. As it is now even if I really liked the game, if I were starting out new I'd feel like the game will die before I catch up.

The problem is beyond that and by a huge margin.

New players who might want to play the game because they are intrigued by the mechanics and the ability to craft characters will quickly do the math once they decide to give it a shot and realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

A very small fraction of the players who might be willing to invest in the game are still around at that point.

There are extreme costs involved in running a game that is populated by hundred+ live Methuselahs, even if those costs are hidden from view.

[rabidfox]

realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

So don't need to spend money (and/or grind DDO points) outside of grabbing content; but I personally think the free coupon needs to be around all the time.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

One doesn't need dozen of past lives to play the content unless ones goal is do push raiding into high skulls (and even then I've seen some 1st life tanks rock mid-skull raids). Myths about what people "need" probably scares some people off; I know when came back a few years ago from a long break, I believed some of the doom posts on the forums and it worried me, but later learned you can get away with a lot as long as you play the game, learn the mechanics, have a solid build, and farm out gear. Sure, some builds do better or worse than others without past lives, but it's fully viable to enjoy the game without that grind.

[Eantarus]

The problem is beyond that and by a huge margin.

New players who might want to play the game because they are intrigued by the mechanics and the ability to craft characters will quickly do the math once they decide to give it a shot and realize they are thousands of hours or thousands of dollars behind the current player base.

This often doesn't become crystal clear until the third heroic life when XP costs are effectively doubled. It becomes clearer still when they realize they're going to need a dozen epic lives at a minimum to get things they need. Even clearer when the advantages of 36 or more heroic racial lives are factored in.

A very small fraction of the players who might be willing to invest in the game are still around at that point.

There are extreme costs involved in running a game that is populated by hundred+ live Methuselahs, even if those costs are hidden from view.

That's exactly my point. They need to dramatically reduce the "costs"(both time and money) for new players to catch up if they want to keep the game alive.

[Anuulified]

In case any of you want to blame the devs or the like, the real reason this game has no population is because the PLAYERS are unfriendly to new and returning players. They'll drag you through quests, if you can find the quest they went to and they will then leave you behind because you don't know where to go.

And if they're really good, they then drop you from the group because you aren't with them.

The real reason is posts like this. Stop expecting us to do something we have been conditioned to not do. Your expectations are unreal and offensive, please give them a warning for unsolicited aggressive behavior, as I don't drag anyone, how offensive ;-).

[Artos_Fabril]

That's exactly my point. They need to dramatically reduce the "costs"(both time and money) for new players to catch up if they want to keep the game alive.

I'm pretty sure the game has passed the point of no return relative to "being kept alive" for new players. The entire focus of development appears to be "keeping the game alive" for vets and whales. Making sure there is always more to buy, and often more to do.

And at this point, it's hard to blame them. There are no players left who aren't inured to this practice, even when it isn't our preference. Everyone who would quit over it already has, and it's the only thing keeping some of those who remain.

[fatherpirate]

I will totally agree, this game is in no way new player friendly.
It is anti-new player.