U48.4 Preview 1: Balance Changes: Combat Styles

[Cetus]

That is kinda the point. Yes, it will always be a nerf to all builds that use it for single target damage, that was a given. But even then, a nerf which is more heavy handed to the extreme examples, even if slightly, is, fundamentally, a good design for the nerf. You can argue that the nerf was heavy handed, but at a sub 7% nerf, most would argue that you are being somewhat unreasonable, given 2HF's general dominance over the meta, and the fact that it was comparable to other options in the one field that it was supposed to be bad at.

You do realize that the reason the number changes at all between these examples is because of the non-strength derived damage your character has, yes?

If you remove all non-strength derived damage, you end up with a 16.7% loss to your damage regardless of what your strength is.

It's 2.5(str)/3.0(str), which is

2.5/3.0, which is

83.333

So, the more non-strength derived damage you have, the less of a nerf you experience. That's not the same as saying it hits the higher strength people harder. That is erroneous.

In other words, if you can spend 4 action points on 2 points of strength, or on 3 points of damage. Pick the damage to minimize the effects of this nerf.

[redoubt]

Cordovan said no heart will be distributed on the livestream yesterday.

Because why do the right thing after such ridiculous nerfs when you can squeeze your players for more money???

[redoubt]

...in a game centered on AoE damage.

Yep... since slavers the model has been large groups around every corner and all must die to proceed. This is the SSG model. Its what THEY did and yet they appear surprised that players have drifted heavily into builds that do AOE.

Wonder how surprised they will be when the new Horizon Stalker tree flops and doesn't sell. Will they realize that few people will buy something that is focused on single target???

[redoubt]

IMHO, they saw belts as low hanging fruit without considering the plethora of horrible fallout that would result from a quick hack to the type.

And this is why much of the player base no longer trusts their judgement.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Arrghh!

Here's the point I was trying to make. Let's try again:

A 50 STR character with a 270 damage mod loses 10 damage with this nerf, 3.4% loss on an extremely low strength melee......So whether you have 100 str (most casual players can achieve this) or 132 strength.

Nooo I believe the point you're trying to say is I was correct. L20 People's warriors with 42-50 STR will be barely affected by this. This is good game design If you need further proof, the only ones whining and bemoaning how THF is now for flavor only are 1% types. Your other argument on bonus effects aside from ability doesn't hold water either. The +10 deadly you can have at L14 far surpasses any reduction you're getting from ability loss and this doesn't scale up to 30 in the same way. And sorry, casual players don't have 100 STR.

[Monkey_Archer]

For anyone interested, I did a generic kensai dps calc with arbitrary endgame stats (no boosts, no desinty abilities, not perfect...)

Old THF Falchion: ~8500 dps
New THF Falchion: ~7900 dps
New SWF Khopesh: ~8000 dps
TWF Khopesh: ~7200 dps
Swashbuckler Kensai 17/3: ~8600 dps

Interested to see if in game tests match up to this...

EDIT: made a mistake on SWF calc, corrected.

[voxson5]

For anyone interested, I did a generic kensai dps calc with arbitrary endgame stats (no boosts, no desinty abilities, not perfect...)

Old THF Falchion: ~8500 dps
New THF Falchion: ~7900 dps
New SWF Khopesh: ~8600 dps
TWF Khopesh: ~7200 dps
Swashbuckler Kensai 17/3: ~9200 dps

Interested to see if in game tests match up to this...

I'm assuming this calculated vs a single target?

Sad 2wf noises.

Did you test with 50 as your damage stat? That's apparently what the general populous can hope to achieve

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm assuming this calculated vs a single target?

Sad 2wf noises.

Did you test with 50 as your damage stat? That's apparently what the general populous can hope to achieve

Yeah, 50 stat mod, 300 mp, 100 DS. Don't read too much into the actual numbers, its mainly just a Style comparison. Your actual dps in game will vary greatly, and the TWF gap will close slightly with sneak attack (but not much)...

[Stormraiser]

Nooo I believe the point you're trying to say is I was correct. L20 People's warriors with 42-50 STR will be barely affected by this. This is good game design If you need further proof, the only ones whining and bemoaning how THF is now for flavor only are 1% types. Your other argument on bonus effects aside from ability doesn't hold water either. The +10 deadly you can have at L14 far surpasses any reduction you're getting from ability loss and this doesn't scale up to 30 in the same way. And sorry, casual players don't have 100 STR.

How can you say this is a good game design? If you're building a system to help players who are fairly new to the game you can't be surprised if the experts come up with better builds which perform better. Stop your 1% nonsense, please.

starting at 18 str,
+ 5 level ups is 21 str
+4 tome
+2 str from ench
+1/2 str from epic destiny
+10 str from borderlands
+4 insightful from borderlands
+3 from filligrees
+ 2 ship

that's 49.

Please refer to here for other sources https://ddowiki.com/page/Strength

[KoobTheProud]

The nerfs look fine to me and I'm full THF at this point.

Here's my request: plz, plz, plz do not break SWF by overpowering it in this update. It will take years to fix that and nobody wants a meta that has switched from THF to SWF just because SWF was made OP w/o a lot of thought for the consequences.

[Marshal_Lannes]

This is reducing everyones stat derived damage by the same exact proportion, regardless of level. You now have to rely on all of your non-stat derived damage to soften the blow, and convert your damage stat over to damage numbers wherever possible.

I've proven your points incorrect at every step. I mean, what is this your 4th attempt to work through the calculation? A calculation you've already stated is unplayable yet you seem unable to actually grasp what the numbers are. My responses are above and nothing you state here changes the calculation. Excellent nerf to the top end players. I like where DDO is going with this.

[Cetus]

I've proven your points incorrect at every step. I mean, what is this your 4th attempt to work through the calculation? A calculation you've already stated is unplayable yet you seem unable to actually grasp what the numbers are. My responses are above and nothing you state here changes the calculation. Excellent nerf to the top end players. I like where DDO is going with this.

Keep patting yourself on the back there Bernie.

The calculation is simple. You can close your ears and yell as loud as you want, but this isn't a preferential tax on the 1% as you so badly want it to be. You're paying the tax with your 50 str build too.

Enjoy the nerfbat.

[Dnarth]

Enjoy the nerfbat.

Thank you sir may I have another?

[Bjond]

The nerfs look fine to me and I'm full THF at this point

The various DPS changes look "interesting". This is likely because I have a Bard character, a THF DPS (when it's under 29), a Ranged, etc.; ie. my characters are all split up by archetype and I intended to keep them that way. A nerf to one character is likely to at least relatively buff another. So, overall, I don't feel the effects of a nerf or buff as much as others.

The only part that makes me wince is the addition of new feats. None of my builds can even remotely consider pitching a feat to use one of the new ones. That applies an enormous incentive to use a fighter split. Not a problem, right? Uh, yeah. Fighters have one of the worst newbie traps in game for DPS: stalwart defender stance and it's innate incite bonus.

I should probably macro it, but on nearly every raid I run I spend a fair bit of time telling DPS to turn off defender. If the game supported it, I would simply kick any DPS that turned it on. It's that bad for raiding and I know this patch will entice more players to turn it on and keep it on.

---

Ability scalars are an ever increasing problem for DDO that becomes greater as new content is released not as you compare casual to elite. Casual hits the plateau, too, just not as quickly. A casual might not hit the current cap before it's raised again, but that just means they're getting more out of the game than the elite slamming his head to the ceiling in a week.

Large scalars invalidate older content faster. People step into top end gear directly from a 1st life character in DDO. So, the worry isn't that older gear will become unwanted, but rather that very slightly older quests and zones will suddenly become too easy to bother playing. It's a serious future growth / head-room problem because keeping content viable longer gives us more to do that is still fun, challenging, and productive at cap.

I'd honestly aim for fractional scaling (<1.0) to increase content longevity. Oooh, not right away. That would be an ideal goal to march toward while tuning all kinds of other factors about mobs, too. A long slow ant-march to the horizon is far preferable to zipping around the world on seven-league boots.

[Tuxedoman96]

Haha, maybe 1% of the melees will actually have a strength that low at level 20, let alone in epics.

Anyway, stop talking nonsense. This has nothing to do with the top 1%.

This change is a multiplier difference per stat modifier. The ratio of new/old damage that is based on that stat modifier will be the same regardless of what the actual stat is.

Character with 2 strength: 3 damage now, 2.5 damage with new change. 2.5/3 = 83.33% of original.

Character with 10000 strength: 29970 damage now, 24975 with new change, 83.33% of original.

This is reducing everyones stat derived damage by the same exact proportion, regardless of level. You now have to rely on all of your non-stat derived damage to soften the blow, and convert your damage stat over to damage numbers wherever possible.

yes and no. The change is indeed a multiplier difference per stat modifier, but the effect it will have on the overall damage of the character depends on that character's strength. This means that those at lower levels are going to experience a different decrease (as a before and after) than those at higher level. Additionally, it means that those that have less STR as a result of not having the requisite past lives, gear, etc. and are not micromanaging their burst STR (which I can't say all casual players do) are going to not experience as much of a decrease relative to the characters that do (again, before vs after). And by no means am I championing for the downfall of the 1% (because honestly, who cares), but even if a 100 STR build from both a casual player and an elite player is getting taxed the same, is the elite player really stopping at 100 STR? That's the point. The difference lies in the theoretical vs the experimental values, and I agree very much that for the theoretical values, nothing really changes with all variables made equivalent. The experimental value, however, may vary for many different reason, to include how one handles their character to max out their DPS and also how one maximizes their melee power (It's more likely that an elitist is going to have a higher MP rating, which means that they're gonna feel the difference more keenly than the ones that have a lower MP rating).

Keep patting yourself on the back there Bernie.

The calculation is simple. You can close your ears and yell as loud as you want, but this isn't a preferential tax on the 1% as you so badly want it to be. You're paying the tax with your 50 str build too.

Enjoy the nerfbat.

Then again, any change to the mechanics that the 1% uses to get up to the summit would also affect anyone else that happens to use those mechanics. Thankfully those that never use them won't ever know what they're missing out on.

[Tilomere]

THF isn't just the AoE style, it is also the hard hitting style, in that it hits significantly harder than SWF or TWF. It is also the CC style, due to strike through + CC. It is also generally the safest style due to range. So THF is the hardest hitting, most AoE, generally most CC, generally safest melee style.

But that's only for melee, because leveling a warlock has more AoE, more CC, more damage up until level 20 with ESoS or 28-9 with a raid weapon, and is even safer due to range.

Mechanically, I think SWF needs to allow bucklers for all classes and builds, and both SWF and TWF need strike through at half values for all builds. They should also look at where melee and casters sit relative to each other and why, which should push the nerfs to specific raid itemization.

[Kebtid]

All those balance changes will do is swap the conversation from 2 handed to single weapon focus being overpowered in a few months.
Please rethink what you plan to do.
With current proposal you are giving swf to much power, defeats the purpose to bring all styles on even ground.

[Malusny]

According to the current lamania testing, it seems that the THF has been pushed down from 3.0 to 2.0x ability modifier (that was before the strikethrough chances were implemented). So I believe that is a too big of a step back. Please keep in mind that overall the ranged builds have an upper hand in reaper due to the fact that they don't need to take damage so much from mobs and they can run/shoot and they shoot well before the mobs are aware of them.

Since the casters and alchemists are getting a nerf (spellpower enhancement fix) and THF gets a nerf in ability to damage from 3.0 DOWN TO 2.0 (which is huge in my opnion, not like people say 2.5 but 2.0!!!) the winners of this update will be all kind of ranged build throwers who will only run/shoot.
That will push the melee builds behind again.

If you have to nerf THF then please do it but not from 3.0 all the way down to 2.0 ability mod. That is clearly too much. Some people say it is only down to 2.5 but according to what you wrote and according to what we tested in lamania , it is 2.0 so it is going to be exactly like before the strikethrough changes! Really?? That's like almost going back to darkages of melee builds for Two-handers.
I would suggest lowering it down because that nerf is probably needed indeed but please don't make THF worthless again. Nobody will play them if they won't be able to kill. And if you look how players play nowdays, you will notice that more and more often people make thrower builds, either star or dagger throwers that kill everything and produce the highest dps in the game right now... while they can stay back and not even get hit once.

I would suggest maybe additional feat for THF that would cost them to get more ability % to damage but if you take it down just as much as it was before, nobody will play it anymore again when there is a better option to make something that kills from distance.

If you want to boost/balance the SWF and TWF then give them a boost as much as needed to match up other fighting styles and I think they surely need that. But if you look closely that will work only for Wolves, Bears and Bards.

Vanguard is unplayable anyway, even if you boost a few things. In reaper it will always be other builds that shine for a very simple reason - everyone has to specialize in whatever their builds are supposed to be good at. We all know it is impossible to be versatile (a bit of defense and a bit of attack). In reaper it is either that you kill a monsters quick or the mobs kill you after 2-3 hits. So no reason to build something that will survive one additional hit in reaper - better to build a tank right away and have the shooters take care of the target - therefore vanguard is going to be a choice only for those who are not playing reaper difficulty. At the same time Vanguard will be not strong enough for the purposes of tanking because it is not more survivable than SWF builds or even THF builds , so why make a shieldbasher when a SWF can still hit faster and harder and have the same defenses?
Strikethrough will not work for Vanguard's shield so that shield dmg is only single target and frankly, despite all your efforts to make the shield a very hard hitting, it is only 1 hit FLAT per second and cannot be sped up because the shield bash is not effected by any speed boosts or anything. There is absolutely no point making it.
Maybe if you've made the shield also able to strikethrough...

Or something like the each type of shield would have a seperate additional bonus to strikethrough - so for example - each shield feat would allow also a certain % for certain shields so small shields would get , idk 30% , large -40% , tower 50% per feat, so with 3 feats it the shield would be able to strikethrough for max 150% and in vanguard tree you would give something to make the shield have additional strikethrough - then the Vanguard build might be an interesting choice again. Or you could reduce the cooldown on the stunning shield and other shield special enhancements. That would make it probably usable... like the shield rush is 30seconds, stunning shield is 30 seconds....
If you want to revive the vanguard then please make it really on par with other classes that deal 3 TIMES more damage and are pretty much on par in defense.


As far as it is now, ranged throwers will be OP and the game will look like that.. a tank goes in, takes mobs on his chest... and in the meantime casters will hold mobs and ranged builds will kill everthing.


I do believe that balancing is a very hard thing for you to do and once every several months you are trying to give one style a boost and take away something from others to maintain a form of balance but at the same time going back to "darkages" with THF is a step too far back imo.

Sorry for so much information , I know it is a lot of loose info but maybe you can consider some of it useful. Cheers.

[Ballrus]

The Greater SM will be a prerequisite for Leg SM in US?

[Stravix]

According to the current lamania testing, it seems that the THF has been pushed down from 3.0 to 2.0x ability modifier (that was before the strikethrough chances were implemented). So I believe that is a too big of a step back. Please keep in mind that overall the ranged builds have an upper hand in reaper due to the fact that they don't need to take damage so much from mobs and they can run/shoot and they shoot well before the mobs are aware of them.

Since the casters and alchemists are getting a nerf (spellpower enhancement fix) and THF gets a nerf in ability to damage from 3.0 DOWN TO 2.0 (which is huge in my opnion, not like people say 2.5 but 2.0!!!) the winners of this update will be all kind of ranged build throwers who will only run/shoot.
That will push the melee builds behind again.

If you have to nerf THF then please do it but not from 3.0 all the way down to 2.0 ability mod. That is clearly too much. Some people say it is only down to 2.5 but according to what you wrote and according to what we tested in lamania , it is 2.0 so it is going to be exactly like before the strikethrough changes! Really?? That's like almost going back to darkages of melee builds for Two-handers.
I would suggest lowering it down because that nerf is probably needed indeed but please don't make THF worthless again. Nobody will play them if they won't be able to kill. And if you look how players play nowdays, you will notice that more and more often people make thrower builds, either star or dagger throwers that kill everything and produce the highest dps in the game right now... while they can stay back and not even get hit once.

I would suggest maybe additional feat for THF that would cost them to get more ability % to damage but if you take it down just as much as it was before, nobody will play it anymore again when there is a better option to make something that kills from distance.

If you want to boost/balance the SWF and TWF then give them a boost as much as needed to match up other fighting styles and I think they surely need that. But if you look closely that will work only for Wolves, Bears and Bards.

Vanguard is unplayable anyway, even if you boost a few things. In reaper it will always be other builds that shine for a very simple reason - everyone has to specialize in whatever their builds are supposed to be good at. We all know it is impossible to be versatile (a bit of defense and a bit of attack). In reaper it is either that you kill a monsters quick or the mobs kill you after 2-3 hits. So no reason to build something that will survive one additional hit in reaper - better to build a tank right away and have the shooters take care of the target - therefore vanguard is going to be a choice only for those who are not playing reaper difficulty. At the same time Vanguard will be not strong enough for the purposes of tanking because it is not more survivable than SWF builds or even THF builds , so why make a shieldbasher when a SWF can still hit faster and harder and have the same defenses?
Strikethrough will not work for Vanguard's shield so that shield dmg is only single target and frankly, despite all your efforts to make the shield a very hard hitting, it is only 1 hit FLAT per second and cannot be sped up because the shield bash is not effected by any speed boosts or anything. There is absolutely no point making it.
Maybe if you've made the shield also able to strikethrough...

Or something like the each type of shield would have a seperate additional bonus to strikethrough - so for example - each shield feat would allow also a certain % for certain shields so small shields would get , idk 30% , large -40% , tower 50% per feat, so with 3 feats it the shield would be able to strikethrough for max 150% and in vanguard tree you would give something to make the shield have additional strikethrough - then the Vanguard build might be an interesting choice again. Or you could reduce the cooldown on the stunning shield and other shield special enhancements. That would make it probably usable... like the shield rush is 30seconds, stunning shield is 30 seconds....
If you want to revive the vanguard then please make it really on par with other classes that deal 3 TIMES more damage and are pretty much on par in defense.


As far as it is now, ranged throwers will be OP and the game will look like that.. a tank goes in, takes mobs on his chest... and in the meantime casters will hold mobs and ranged builds will kill everthing.


I do believe that balancing is a very hard thing for you to do and once every several months you are trying to give one style a boost and take away something from others to maintain a form of balance but at the same time going back to "darkages" with THF is a step too far back imo.

Sorry for so much information , I know it is a lot of loose info but maybe you can consider some of it useful. Cheers.

There is no mention of 2HF's base damage multiplier getting nerfed from 1.5 > 1.0.

Given that, it would be safe to assume that it is a bug, and not intended. While individual spell values might be off from patch notes to lama, a change to 2HF's base damage scaling is not something they would just forget to add IMO. Without confirmation that it is intended, we should just assume that it isn't.