U48.4 Preview 1: Balance Changes: Combat Styles

[ValariusK]

Two Weapon Defense is a nice change.

Yes, I can see rangers taking it as a matter of course, they have feats to spare. Rogue assassins will be in the position where their must have feats (precision, 3 twf, imp crit pierce, improved feint) are pretty tight with this and completiionist competing. That's fine btw. People SHOULD have choices that matter.

[Monkey_Archer]

Overall general thoughts:

• THF needed the nerf, this particular nerf is fine.
• non-vistani TWF still seems like trash. I'd suggest adding 20% offhand strike chance to TWF (without feats) and removing 20% offhand from vistani/tempest.
• SWF is going to be very strong...
• How are Bastard sword/ Dwarvern axe affected? and can they still (or are forced to) take THF and Shield mastery line together?

[xAmadeusx]

Overall general thoughts:

• THF needed the nerf, this particular nerf is fine.

Why? Because it put it into competition with casters/ranged who don’t have to risk anything at all to annihilate a room or boss? God forbid an offensive melee play style actually have some fun.

[PpalP]

Sorry Cocomajobo but I don't understand how these changes can offer more build options for TWF:

1.- Is the worse combat style: less stat to damage, less melee power, less defense, less speed...
2.- Removing as feat Two-Weapon Blocking is wise, because in the state of the game in what kind of scene you would block with two weapons??? (I mean blocking to prevent less damage); adding that effect to the feat Two-Weapon Defence is, in fact, a zero. And adding 10 MRR cap to that feat don't make it better, especially for non-fighters because the feats are so tight that you have practically no room to improvise. Take in mind that the feat gives +1 AC which is almost useless beyond level 10+ and 5 PRR that have at least, some uses
3.- The Epic feat is the only one that can benefit all 3 combat styles because there is no requirement to be fighting with two weapons for the bonus, and that's is simply unfair

Let compare:

THF (require STR 17)
250% stat damage
150% Strikethrough
16 Melee power

SWF (the combat style with less stat requirement, only 7 ranks on Balance):
75%/100% stat damage
50% attack speed (2 attacks per second in the wiki is correct)
Vorpal on 19-20
6 Melee power

TWF (because Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting can be picked by anyone I don't include it in any of this, obviously):
-10% to hit
-50% stat damage for offhand
No Doublestrike for offhand
Cleave type attacks don't proc offhand attack
80% to make an off-hand attack
Offhand can proc some effects

Writing this I'm even more upset of how that combat style is so at the bottom, very sad : (

[Tuxedoman96]

Sorry Cocomajobo but I don't understand how these changes can offer more build options for TWF:

1.- Is the worse combat style: less stat to damage, less melee power, less defense, less speed...
2.- Removing as feat Two-Weapon Blocking is wise, because in the state of the game in what kind of scene you would block with two weapons??? (I mean blocking to prevent less damage); adding that effect to the feat Two-Weapon Defence is, in fact, a zero. And adding 10 MRR cap to that feat don't make it better, especially for non-fighters because the feats are so tight that you have practically no room to improvise. Take in mind that the feat gives +1 AC which is almost useless beyond level 10+ and 5 PRR that have at least, some uses
3.- The Epic feat is the only one that can benefit all 3 combat styles because there is no requirement to be fighting with two weapons for the bonus, and that's is simply unfair

Let compare:

THF (require STR 17)
250% stat damage
150% Strikethrough
16 Melee power

SWF (the combat style with less stat requirement, only 7 ranks on Balance):
75%/100% stat damage
50% attack speed (2 attacks per second in the wiki is correct)
Vorpal on 19-20
6 Melee power

TWF (because Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting can be picked by anyone I don't include it in any of this, obviously):
-10% to hit
-50% stat damage for offhand
No Doublestrike for offhand
Cleave type attacks don't proc offhand attack
80% to make an off-hand attack
Offhand can proc some effects

Writing this I'm even more upset of how that combat style is so at the bottom, very sad : (

It's not really fair to discount the PTWF feat from TWF. Even if each combat style would benefit from the 5% doublestrike, only TWF benefits from the 10% offhand doublestrike.

[Forcystus]

Looks good! THF needed a nerf and other styles needed a bit of a boost to keep up. Tanks getting a bit of a bump is nice as well.

Wolf competence bonus to hp is... strange. Doesnt stack with edf, I see no reason for this? Maybe make their stat an extra 50% to keep up?

Thank you for the effort you put in!

Wolf Competence Bonus to HP allows them to cast at range while still having +15% HP compared to +25% HP and touch range spells of EDF.

[grudgebear]

Single Weapon Fighting

Please frontload Single Weapon Fighting feat with more attack speed (like 20%), and add the rest with other ones (Improved +5%, Greater +5%).

This will give a better bump in earlier stages, faster attacks improves gameplay experience of SWF and overall doesn't add any power creep.

[Forcystus]

It's not really fair to discount the PTWF feat from TWF. Even if each combat style would benefit from the 5% doublestrike, only TWF benefits from the 10% offhand doublestrike.

Still... the 10% Offhand Doublestrike is relatively low. The only TWF right now that seem viable are Tempest (as they get +5% attackspeed and offhand doublestrike) and Tempest (Strikethrough and full offhand ability dmg).

[Monkey_Archer]

Sorry Cocomajobo but I don't understand how these changes can offer more build options for TWF:

1.- Is the worse combat style: less stat to damage, less melee power, less defense, less speed...
2.- Removing as feat Two-Weapon Blocking is wise, because in the state of the game in what kind of scene you would block with two weapons??? (I mean blocking to prevent less damage); adding that effect to the feat Two-Weapon Defence is, in fact, a zero. And adding 10 MRR cap to that feat don't make it better, especially for non-fighters because the feats are so tight that you have practically no room to improvise. Take in mind that the feat gives +1 AC which is almost useless beyond level 10+ and 5 PRR that have at least, some uses
3.- The Epic feat is the only one that can benefit all 3 combat styles because there is no requirement to be fighting with two weapons for the bonus, and that's is simply unfair

TWF essentially suffers the same problem crossbows do. Its propped up by a single universal enhancement tree that forces you into a specific build.

Just like there's no reason to use a crossbow without inquisitive, there's no reason to use TWF except as an endgame vistani build (no Tempest does not count, tempest is pseudo-THF, not a real TWF build).

[Noircere]

Single Weapon Fighting
New Feat: Offhand Versatility

• Req: BaB 8, Single Weapon Fighting
• Your offhand item modifies your main hand:
  
  • Runearms and Orbs now grant: when you vorpal strike, your next spell automatically crits. This has an internal cooldown of 20 seconds (lasts for 20 seconds).
  • Nothing in your offhand increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.

Could you allow, or change the wording to indicate that: the "Nothing in your offhand" case of Offhand Versatility also works with a buckler in your offhand, if you're allowed to use bucklers and still benefit from Single Weapon Fighting feats? (E.G., with Bard Swashbuckler Skirmisher?)

Also, I love the design space you're exploring with the orb/runearm version. I hope it works out to be viable. One thing you might want to check: I believe certain long duration spells (like death aura) snapshot the modifiers on them at time of cast. I foresee Pale Masters slotting this feat in order to trigger their aura to crit on every tick for minutes on end. I don't play a Pale Master, so I don't know if that would be overpowered or not, but it might be something to consider.

[Logicman69]

Why? Because it put it into competition with casters/ranged who don’t have to risk anything at all to annihilate a room or boss? God forbid an offensive melee play style actually have some fun.

Check out the spell thread. Alchemist's and Sorcs took a hit too... Alchemists actually got hit hard with the nerf bat. I almost feel sorry for them.

[droid327]

Also interested how HaH works with the new THF stat-to-dmg progression

Have to see how the auto-crit plays...if its just, e.g., one projectile, or the first mob hit, then its not as attractive as if the whole spell autocrits on everything. 20 secs may still be too much of a CD to make a difference though? Might make the most sense on self heals - can imagine things like snapshotting Death Aura with 100% crit chance, especially. Is it smart enough to not waste its charge on non-damage spells that cant crit?

Wondering how this affects Trances. Right now they're already pretty powerful, and with the tune-down of THF they're going to represent an even bigger proportion of your DPS. This is especially problematic for DEX builds (and TWF is of course DEX based) since they have no option for Trance.

Ultimately...I like the rolespace being better defined for SWF, for hybrid caster-martials, but I still dont see anything challenging THF just because the ability to do sustained AOE damage is so much more useful in the game right now than anything other styles provide. Getting -50% stat to dmg nerfs THF a little, but if you're hitting 2-3 mobs at a time every swing, you're still doing 2-3x as much DPS as a single-target build.

[niknight]

Single Weapon Fighting
New Feat: Offhand Versatility

• Req: BaB 8, Single Weapon Fighting
• Your offhand item modifies your main hand:
  
  • Runearms and Orbs now grant: when you vorpal strike, your next spell automatically crits. This has an internal cooldown of 20 seconds (lasts for 20 seconds).
  • Nothing in your offhand increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.
• Fighters may select this feat as one of their Fighter Bonus Feats.

Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

• Now also increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.
• Now also grants an additional +10 combat style bonus to Melee Power.

While using an orb, it's trivial to get 80+% base critical chance so getting a guaranteed crit on a vorpal seems much less exciting than it should be. Love the changes to these feats otherwise.

Two Handed Fighting
The Two Handed Fighting, Improved Two Handed Fighting, and Greater Two Handed Fighting feats now increase your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.

Perfect Two Handed Fighting

• Now also increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25%.

Awesome. Sorely needed adjustment.

Natural Fighting
The Natural Fighting feat now increases your ability score modifier to damage by 25% while in Bear or Dire Bear form.

New Feat: Perfect Natural Fighting

• Req: Level 26, maximum experience in one Primal sphere Epic Destiny, at least one copy of Natural Fighting.
• If in Bear form, your Two-Handed ability mod increases by .25, and your Bear form's bonus to Armor Class is increased by 5%.
• If in Wolf form, +15% competence bonus to maximum hit points, and you gain +2d6 sneak attack dice.

I'm not exactly sure why the bonus type for the wolf is competence, since EDF is both free and a larger bonus. Possibly type it as an Insight bonus, since I'd doubt most wolf builds run in Sentinel.

[Tilomere]

New Feat: Greater Shield Mastery
[LIST][*]New Feat: Perfect Shield Mastery
Req: Level 26, maximum experience in one Divine sphere Epic Destiny (same as other Perfect Combat Style Feats), and Shield Mastery.
You are the paragon of shield usage, able to effectively leverage all types of shields in close combat. Your shield gains +1W, and you gain +20% Shield Armor Class and +5 PRR.

Armor class is effectively 0 in high level content where this feat is even with a shield and Gaurdian tank set unless you build for it with defender trees. See here. Can we get 20% shield AC changed to 20% shield bash since this is for vangaurds who will have that effectively 0 AC? Without shield bash %, shield combat will be blocked off from a lot of classes that are traditionally proficient with shields.

If you want to add avoidance, can it instead deflect attacks, like deflect arrows, except for melee? Or max dex bonus to shields for dodge? Or a dex cap of a shield 1 size smaller?

[Noircere]

I still dont see anything challenging THF just because the ability to do sustained AOE damage is so much more useful in the game right now than anything other styles provide. Getting -50% stat to dmg nerfs THF a little, but if you're hitting 2-3 mobs at a time every swing, you're still doing 2-3x as much DPS as a single-target build.

Yup. I feel like single-target builds need to do at least double the DPS that an AoE build does to a single target for it to be balanced. IMO, the bonus attacks from 2WF ought to be multiplicative with doublestrike, rather than additive.

Either that, or we need more encounter design where precision killing enemies one-by-one is valuable. Let Sleeping Dust Lie is a bad example of this.

In my P&P D&D, I recently had to solve this problem, because the melees were feeling weak next to the Sorcerer and Druid.

Some techniques I've employed:

• Encounters featuring single enemies, or smaller groups
• Encounters where it's difficult to land AoE without hitting the party (can't be used on DDO since there's no friendly fire)
• Encounters where the melee need to use their immobilization or forced movement abilities to corral the enemies to help the casters to AoE.
• Mechanics where putting DPS on several enemies simultaneously is a bad idea. I had one with fire elementals that explode when killed, dealing fire damage with a save and no save: inflicting disadvantage on saves against fire effects for one round -- which is much more dangerous if multiple pop simultaneously. I had one with trolls that go "berserk" at half HP, granting them an extra turn immediately after the current player's turn, and doubling their regeneration and granting advantage on all attacks until they die or return to full HP (or otherwise calm down -- the warlock came up with a quick workaround with a Command spell!).

[Tilomere]

Base SWF in heroics needs about a 50% boost in damage. See here for level 15 damage comparisons of SWF vs. THF vs. Ranged vs. Caster.

The 25% extra stat to damage and 10 style melee power you are adding to Perfect SWF should be copied to heroics, then applied again to epics.

Could we get Ancient Power past life damage to apply to other styles as well? SWF feels light on base damage in heroics, and TWF feels really light on base damage.

[Coffey]

Staff must be taking a break for some pizza and beers

[grudgebear]

Perhaps consider changing Offhand Versatility req. from +8BAB to +4BAB.

[Cetus]

So what is the total ability modifier for a THFer now? 250%?

I also don’t see the long overdue correction to animal form twitch fighting. I also don’t see a review of the ridiculous amount of melee power that is packed into the KotC tree, both of which are confounding the “observed over-performance” of THF.

[Coffey]

TWF essentially suffers the same problem crossbows do. Its propped up by a single universal enhancement tree that forces you into a specific build.

Just like there's no reason to use a crossbow without inquisitive, there's no reason to use TWF except as an endgame vistani build (no Tempest does not count, tempest is pseudo-THF, not a real TWF build).

I thought they used the DoD mechanic for Strikethrough.