U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[redoubt]

IPS is still OP and hasn't enough drawbacks.

Based on the 20% nerf to IPS I see nothing changing. It's still a hobson's choice.

100% damage to 1 mob or 80% damage to all mobs. No brainer there. Nothing will change and we'll be back here in 6 months with another IPS nerf.

I have doubts about you actually using IPS. Even when you get mobs lined up, there are height issues. Try using IPS on a group of drow with spiders. You will hit one or the other, but not both.

So basically, IPS, which has been in the game since Module 3 in 2006, is suddenly OP due to a 2019 universal ranged tree so the solution is to nerf IPS?

Yeah, the IPS hit does not compute.

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

IPS is the hardest multitarget damage to use. (Yes, I've played, casters and thf cleavers etc).

Overall, I have to say that reading the OP on ranged changes, I just am walking away pretty ****ed off.

You want lama feedback? Keep it up longer than 36 hours. Showing us you will listen to that feedback would also be helpful. I used to do a lot of lama testing, but time after time Turbine showed all of us that it was really just a preview server. So far, you are not doing a good job of showing us anything different from the old Turbine and Mournlands days.

[karatemack]

As we approach each Hardcore season, one of our goals is to make changes that change how you build and play characters - We want to shake up builds and strategies, and it makes sense to align these game-wide changes with the release of new seasons of the Hardcore League. Season 2 is coming very soon, so U45 contains a lot of the balance changes for the season. Some of this process involves identifying underperforming builds and making changes to boost them - KOTC and Two Handed Fighting changes are a big part of this in this Season. However, this process also involves identifying overperforming builds and archetypes and making adjustments as well.

I hope my fellow players have not missed all there is to unpack here.

1. It's an active goal of the development team to change how we build and play characters? Why? As you introduce new elements to the game (races, classes, trees, etc.) that will happen organically for those who choose to change, right? There's a gap the size of the Grand Canyon between "we want to offer more diversity in the available build options" and "our goal is to make changes that change how you build and play characters".
2. Why would this align with Hardcore League at all? Will these changes ONLY be live on the Hardcore servers? What about players who have no interest in Hardcore League? Are these changes "good" for them too? It seems (on the surface) that you're attempting to "shake things up" right before a Hardcore season to make it more interesting, which leaves those with zero interest in Hardcore baffled by many of the design decisions you've made.
3. Where did the data for the overperforming and underperforming builds come from? Again, the association with Hardcore League seems like a bad place to design from as this caters to the more skilled players. Where are the LOW-END builds on each of these? How will the new/returning player experience be affected by the changes? What about the players who aren't as good at DDO? Do you really think you'll stop Nightmare from making builds which can crit for over 50k+? (you won't)

[Vyrzain]

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming.
I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows.
In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

/agree

[droid327]

You want lama feedback? Keep it up longer than 36 hours.

Yeah I got a big problem with this too...

Lama is not open long enough to get useful feedback. Only a fraction of the playerbase even know Lama is open because they never make an announcement in the regular Dev Tracker, so players who arent following closely every day might not realize its open until the last day or till its already over.

Then of the fraction that does update and log into Lama, I'd say roughly 80% of them are not testing the new content, but just using the opportunity to sandbox stuff they wanted to try on Live, or figure out what they want to plan for their main.

The actual testing we need - trying to figure out the new metas, trying to break it with edge cases, etc. - that takes a few days before people get to that point. So we never get to that point. So we end up having to deal with massive rebalance patches like this, because all the stuff that should've come out in testing didnt come out till after it went Live for a while.

First off, Lama should just stay open on the current Live build whenever its not being used for testing. That way people always have a sandbox server to try things out on. Even if that's a VIP-only privilege, at least that'd free up a lot of players to go right to testing when a new patch hits. Then second, Lama should be open at least 5 days if not 7 to let the data collection process mature. I'd rather spend 2 extra days waiting for the patch than spend 2 weeks in a process like we're in now trying to rebalance it after the fact, and have everyone ticked off because they already invested heavily in the Live build, assuming it was balanced and WAI.

[barecm]

Do you really think you'll stop Nightmare from making builds which can crit for over 50k+? (you won't)[/LIST]

This is such a good statement. I would follow up with my answer.... As long as there are instakills in the game, and mobs have 100K plus hps (non boss / raid boss), you will have builds that can deal over 50k (or 100k, or whatever levels orange named can get to).

The difference is that SSG does nothing about instakills, yet consistently nerfs long / short bows to the point where you cannot reasonably compete. Even after they SSG finally admits they are underpowered... they nerf them again. Un-bleeping-believable!

[JOTMON]

Something that should be added to all ranged damage ... damage reduction over distance...


The further away you are the less damage you do... the whole 10 mile ranged full dps is pretty much bs... for players and mobs..

[Mindos]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_St...ents#Tier_Five

What about Improved Archers Focus? You can now stack Archer's focus to 25 instead of 15.

Trash gets cleared FAST in this game, even at high reaper. How the heck is anyone gonna get 25 stacks? And if by Khyber's light they DO reach 25, how long will that monster be alive?

[Neo-Masamune]

Man, you're dedicated, I've stopped playing my archer and moved to a new main ages ago. Feels nice to have a vaguely competent toon for a change. Bows are just not worth it - not now, not five years ago.

Also problem is, there's nothing much wrong with AA and DWS as such. The problem is with bows as part of ranged / as compared to other ranged styles. And it's not AA / DWS getting nerfed, it's bows (as part of ranged). So until they do something about bows, minor handouts to ranger trees aren't gonna offer much comfort.


P.S. I came to this thread excited at the thought of playing a ranged-focused Silver Flame paladin. Now I'm at a loss :/

I love AA too much to let it go! This update was suposed to be a blast but im all disapointed!

Sad story!

I dont even use deepwood anymore! I mix AA with falcon tree all lifes to get the WIS as high as i can do paralyze/fear as much as possible!


So Boost AA! not only deepood! and in general long/shortbows need a big boost too... kinda sad story for my favorite toon ever in this game, been playing AAs for years! I dont wanna stop now!

[Son_of_the_South]

*Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.*

This is s HUGE kick in the azz for ranged builds that aren't spamming shots. You may as well just drop 20% damage off every AOE/cleave in the game if it hits more than one target.
I'd LOVE to see you do that to casters, who can hit an entire swarm, but yet ranged (who can only do that in a STRAIGHT LINE) get a damage nerf to their only multi-target attack.

Yet another reason cleaving and casters are easier to play. Again.

So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

[barecm]

So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

Longbow users paying penance for the sins of the xbows. SSG simply doesn't get it, or worse... doesn't care.

[Lynnabel]

So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

For clarity (and apologies if I'm misunderstanding your words here), the Doubleshot reduction is specific to the Dual Crossbow style, not to ranged overall.

[Fedora1]

I mix AA with falcon tree all lifes to get the WIS as high as i can do paralyze/fear as much as possible!

And with the change to archers focus you are going to do even less dps on a paralyzer build than previously.

[Pilgrim1]

* I think the changes to IPS are necessary for the game balance.
* I think the changes to archers focus are done poorly and need to be reconfigured. I would suggest keeping the original archers focus for now, if not even improving it. People will sit down and do the math and realize if they had a peppermint +45 ranged power but could only hit 1 target they would still accept a 20% decrease in damage loss and use IPS. So frankly you should increase the capacity of archers focus, not decrease it.

Question:
* the -20% damage loss when using IPS, how is that done? Is it -20 Ranged power? Is it -20% attack speed. Is it -20% base damage (like a reverse zombie)?
* Can you give us the new attack animation rate of various different ranged weapon stiles now that your changing rapid reload so we don't have to manual test that out again?

[Son_of_the_South]

For clarity (and apologies if I'm misunderstanding your words here), the Doubleshot reduction is specific to the Dual Crossbow style, not to ranged overall.

Thanks for the clarification, I do get that the DS reduction is targeted towards dual crossbow wielders. 66% is major over-kill. Balance yes but a Wrath of God (MTG reference there for you) is not balance (especially considering the nerf to IPS).

[Son_of_the_South]

So maybe try to actually roll a first-life DC caster and take him to EEs - and then report back on how well you do

Invalid; the developers have specifically stated that elite content is not designed for new players/characters.

[ZzpxpzZ]

So, my 2 cents.

The IPS change is fine, people who are complaining about it do not have the rest of the game in perspective. Spell casters are brought up a lot - sure, their AoE may be superior situationally. If you are stuck using lightning bolt or another direct line offensive spell similar in profile to an IPS shot, it is much worse than IPS because the consequences of not lining up your shot properly are much more significant when you are not firing multiple times a second. Other AOE spells are definitely nicer, but even then, spell casters only feel so strong functionally due to the nature of how front loaded their damage is. This is very useful for trash clearing, but their single target DPS is not close to non bow ranged builds in exchange. If you look at melees, they have cleave instead of IPS. Cleave is easier to use, but both has a cooldown, and has a MUCH bigger than 20% damage penalty - the inability to doublestrike. IPS is still a very strong stance, it may be tricky with IPS to line up full large groups, but its definitely not remotely hard to line up at least 1 additional mob for IPS, and under that circumstance its already a 60% damage boost after the nerf.

If I had some asks it would be these:

- Make the speed of toggling between the two stances nearly instant, or if necessary make it that way at least if you have quick draw or something.
- Even more importantly, please make it so its not stacks building on you as you hit an enemy multiple times, make it build on the enemy instead. It will still have the same desired effect of encouraging usage during single target bursting or focus firing. But heaven forbid that you have to change targets for a moment for any reason and then go to tab back to your prior target and happen to fire off a shot. (To be clear, I mean make it so the stacks stay on the enemy even if you hit another target so that if you go back to that enemy the stacks are still there.)

Bow users - I feel your pain. I understand all the concerns, and it sucks to get the short end of the stick now, but they have clearly stated that they are doing the bow pass soon. There was a TON in this update, I was definitely pleasantly surprised with how much systems changes we got this time around, and the fact that they just could not squeeze the bow rework into this update as well is unfortunate but not surprising. Its definitely going to suck even more for the bow for the next few months but its not like that is new. SSG has already stated that they are planning the bow update for this year, ideally that means U46, but if not at least its no more than 48 at the extreme end since they generally only fit 3 or 4 updates a year. It is just a reality of game development that they cant fit an unlimited amount of changes into a single update, and bows got the shaft this time. But as far as making any sort of commentary on the target state of bows, thats just going to have to wait until the bow pass occurs. So, it sucks to say it, but suck it up.

[barecm]

Bow users - I feel your pain. I understand all the concerns, and it sucks to get the short end of the stick now, but they have clearly stated that they are doing the bow pass soon. There was a TON in this update, I was definitely pleasantly surprised with how much systems changes we got this time around, and the fact that they just could not squeeze the bow rework into this update as well is unfortunate but not surprising. Its definitely going to suck even more for the bow for the next few months but its not like that is new. SSG has already stated that they are planning the bow update for this year, ideally that means U46, but if not at least its no more than 48 at the extreme end since they generally only fit 3 or 4 updates a year. It is just a reality of game development that they cant fit an unlimited amount of changes into a single update, and bows got the shaft this time. But as far as making any sort of commentary on the target state of bows, thats just going to have to wait until the bow pass occurs. So, it sucks to say it, but suck it up.

Then leave short / long bow users the heck alone until they are ready to roll out the changes. There is absolutely no reason to nerf bows now because xbows are over performing. As usual, longbows have the price to pay. Well, I don’t want to have to suck it up. The devs need to suck it up and leave us alone until the can do the whole fix, not leaving us hanging out to dry HOPING the fix comes later this year; no guarantees there either. A whole **** year or more of being worse than the terrible state we were already in? Screw that. I am canceling my sub as soon as this pile of garbage goes live.

[Burradin]

Folks want to come on the forums and call for nerfs. If you constantly call for them, then you shouldn't complain when they effect something you like playing. I been playing this game for a long time and have never asked for a nerf. Never complained someone's new build is more powerful than I have. I think things should be put in the game and left. If SSG get it right to start with, well that is what you gave folks to play with. I am not opposed to buffing classes that need it, but to use the old nerf bat. I am so tied of seeing it asked for and it being done. Spend the time to build new things. Spend the time to fix actual game problems.

Before you say I just want the easy button, I have not played most of the "OP" builds over the years. I actually play things I enjoy. I did not play the wolf build that was so OP at one point. I don't like druids. I have not played the "OP" Arty builds, I don't like Arties. I have played Inquisitor and since it is some people paid for, think is in disingenuous to change after release. I am not a purist, I could care less if class X is stronger than class Y. Does people enjoy playing them? Should be only question.

I still remember the days when people were looked up on MYDDO and if you were not built as others thought, you were not allowed in groups. The same issue existed with that mentality then as it does in these nerf arguments. Player experience makes a big difference that can't be addressed in these assessments. I still remember tanking raids for a friend of mine that always had to explain why he was letting my funky build, no one else understood, tank. I remember him asking a bard to heal me through a raid because he was sure the cleric would need to help the rest of the group. Then the bard coming over voice saying he was bored, did he have to stay with me. This was years ago and well before all the stuff we see now. People did not understand my build, but it worked for me and my play style.

I honestly don't group with anyone anymore other than my wife. All the people worried about kill count or someone else not having the optimal build ruins the fun of just playing the game. People keep forgetting it is a game, play it and have fun.

Sinfully/Fopo of Sarlona

[Stealthsiren]

We recognize that some of the overall-ranged changes in this update reduce the amount of AOE damage that Bows can produce. However, between Archer's Focus (being a boon to Bow builds' single-target damage) and updated Deepwood Stalker, there are some boosts in this update as well. We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

Ranger
Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Heavy Draw no longer reduces Attack by 5 when toggled on, and now also grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier to Longbows and Shortbows while toggled on.
Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

Bows are weak, so here is.... Well look at that, absolutely nothing of value. Maybe "We've got plans coming soon for that" SoonTM will occur before hell freezes over. Bows havent even been in a DECENT spot since MOTU. Then for some unknown reason rangers are actually one of the worst bow users in the game! Fighters, monks, and now even wizards are better at using bows than rangers.
Arcane Archer is hot garbage, and honestly if yall want help with a good gameplay tree to replace AA with let me know. I'll work on one, even let you all do the numbers for balance.
Also why does DWS Strikes like Lightning ONLY WORK OUTSIDE OF IPS?!?!? Stop limiting Bows, like you even said. They are way below where they should be.

Ranger Enhancements
Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff. These replace the previous component that allowed you to hit multiple targets directly.
Dance of Death's cooldown is now 30 seconds.

Im only quoting this because the only good part of ranger is now getting nerfed. Fighter, Barb, Paladin, all better DPS just for TWF. So what's the point of playing ranger now other than for just being a ranger?

PS: Potential fixes to bows and rangers.
1) RANGER granted feat (lvls 12 & 18) Permanently shoots another arrow when firing. (Passive Many shot, remove active if you want) This fix lessens the gap for DPS bow users, not crit bow users like fighters, and keeps monks from getting buffed to stay consistent with the past year worth of patches.
2) Remove Arcane Archer tree (or name it Arcane Toggle Archer) its a bad version of EK
3) Increase Ranged Alacrity of bows by 200% (still not even enough of a dps bump to match great xbows)

[barecm]

Bows are weak, so here is.... Well look at that, absolutely nothing of value. Maybe "We've got plans coming soon for that" SoonTM will occur before hell freezes over. Bows havent even been in a DECENT spot since MOTU. Then for some unknown reason rangers are actually one of the worst bow users in the game! Fighters, monks, and now even wizards are better at using bows than rangers.
Arcane Archer is hot garbage, and honestly if yall want help with a good gameplay tree to replace AA with let me know. I'll work on one, even let you all do the numbers for balance.
Also why does DWS Strikes like Lightning ONLY WORK OUTSIDE OF IPS?!?!? Stop limiting Bows, like you even said. They are way below where they should be.



Im only quoting this because the only good part of ranger is now getting nerfed. Fighter, Barb, Paladin, all better DPS just for TWF. So what's the point of playing ranger now other than for just being a ranger?

I honestly think they have no idea what to do so we have an amalgamation of several ideas thrown around in a dev meeting. No plan, no thought to how players will react. Just shoving a bunch of **** down our throats because their last great idea failed.