U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[Carrow12]

This is such a good statement. I would follow up with my answer.... As long as there are instakills in the game, and mobs have 100K plus hps (non boss / raid boss), you will have builds that can deal over 50k (or 100k, or whatever levels orange named can get to).

The difference is that SSG does nothing about instakills, yet consistently nerfs long / short bows to the point where you cannot reasonably compete. Even after they SSG finally admits they are underpowered... they nerf them again. Un-bleeping-believable!

Get off the casters man - instakills only work on enemies that don't have dw (which quite a few seem to have), and are not mini and main bosses. Want to see a raid completed with 12 casters since they are so strong? You won't. DC casters don't have the dps (unless you count the 1-2 points of damage they do when hitting the monster with a scepter!), and you can't have a good DC if you want to have dps - which is still somewhat subpar on casters compared to other classes. So let's stop acting like DC casters have it so easy when in reality they are going through life after life to get the **** dcs needed for them to hold something so you can kill it.

[Paladin_of_Power]

Folks want to come on the forums and call for nerfs. If you constantly call for them, then you shouldn't complain when they effect something you like playing.

Folks calling for Inquisitive nerfs were not playing Inquisitive, and were shocked and appalled and someone else doing more dps them. And killing mobs before the melees got toe to toe.

I hope SSG didn't just get rolled by the forum warriors again.

[WestiesMA]

Soon^TM

Translation: Once we decide exactly what to do, then we will put it on the roadmap. This means it should be ready by 2035. For sure

[Souless]

How about Rapid Reload does not work with Inquisitive Tree?

I'm wondering: Did u buy the Inq tree?

I'm also wondering if SSG is going to offer me a refund for my purchase of the inq tree?

I've also been doing a lot of reading on this post about the OP-ness of ranged combat. And I'm wondering is anyone playing the same game I am?

Caster's are CLEARLY the master class..Specifically, classes that carry AOE install-kills that don't even need to be lined up. 300k dam in R8, and SSG wants to use the nerf bat on the toons that I have fun playing. I think ALL casting should take a 15 seconds to cast...I think ALL casting should have a decrease in damage after the first mob hit...And I think ALL casters should have to stand in 1 spot in order to perform those spells. AND FINALLY, I'M WONDERING HOW MANY PPL WHO PLAY CASTERS LIVE WOULD COMPLAIN?

There is plenty of things wrong with the game, ranged combat isn't one of them. "Nerfing" ranged with out an adjustment (Major Nerf) to casters to me is a joke.

The Bytcher~

[Souless]

Get off the casters man - instakills only work on enemies that don't have dw (which quite a few seem to have), and are not mini and main bosses. Want to see a raid completed with 12 casters since they are so strong? You won't. DC casters don't have the dps (unless you count the 1-2 points of damage they do when hitting the monster with a scepter!), and you can't have a good DC if you want to have dps - which is still somewhat subpar on casters compared to other classes. So let's stop acting like DC casters have it so easy when in reality they are going through life after life to get the **** dcs needed for them to hold something so you can kill it.

I have gone through life after life to get my ranger up to power. Quit complaining that your time is somehow more valuable than my time.

Casters CAN and DO instakills. Casters CAN and DO hold mobs. Casters CAN and DO out DPS any other class.

I think nearly all of the complaints on the forums are from casters who are whining because a xbow users managed to get some kills on the kill count.

The Bytcher~

[Carrow12]

I have gone through life after life to get my ranger up to power. Quit complaining that your time is somehow more valuable than my time.

Casters CAN and DO instakills. Casters CAN and DO hold mobs. Casters CAN and DO out DPS any other class.

I think nearly all of the complaints on the forums are from casters who are whining because a xbow users managed to get some kills on the kill count.

The Bytcher~

I never said that my time is more valuable than yours. I would just like you to consider the fact that I have put in AS much time as you have to achieve certain DCs. DCs that keep going up with all new released content. I feel for the nerf that range toons are getting, I really do. But coming after a class that has a completely different set of skills than you just hurts everyone. And on a side note - I sure got more kills as xbow user than I did as a dc caster- and bonus! I wasn't left helpless running around for my party members to come kill the guys that I have little to no effect on.

[Komradkillingmachine]

Player base: "bows are underperforming and Inquisitives are overperforming"
SSG: "We hear you loud and clear. We're going to nerf IPS because we want to nerf Inquisitives and bows at the same time"

Someone at SSG must have been like: "How can we aggravate as many players as possible?"

Are they telling me Shurikannons were OP? Longbow/Shortbows were OP? Repeaters? Sigh....

[SirL0LL0bis]

I have gone through life after life to get my ranger up to power. Quit complaining that your time is somehow more valuable than my time.

Casters CAN and DO instakills. Casters CAN and DO hold mobs. Casters CAN and DO out DPS any other class.

I think nearly all of the complaints on the forums are from casters who are whining because a xbow users managed to get some kills on the kill count.

The Bytcher~

This, but add some butthurt melee to the list of the complainer

[PurpleTimb]

Let me add my voice to the chorus of pitchfork-wielders. I'm not happy to have to accept a nerf to a play style the devs admit is under-performing. It doesn't make me any happier about my now less powerful bow user to hear the devs tell me that maybe someday at some remote time in the future I might get a buff to make up for the fact that they are nerfing my already
under-performing play style.

This is really the best you could come up with? IPS is not over-performing. 50-60% of the Inquisitive tree is over-performing.

My suggestion; reduce the rate of fire of the dual crossbow style by about 40% and leave everything else as is. Then all the other problems of too much doubleshot and too many law dice would fix themselves.

[DRoark]

I know they are stating that the changes to IPS had "nothing" to do with Inquisitor builds, and they were addressing the issue for awhile.

Horsepuckey. It's worked for a DECADE, and suddenly it's an issue? This smacks of the same mystery-top-secret-data that got Heroic Monks
stomped into the floor. Archers firing in a straight line (not even an AOE), suddenly went from subpar damage, that you ADMIT is a problem,
to less-than-subpar damage. SSG solution? .... Nerf ALL ranged damage, because fixing one universal tree, is like... totally hard, and stuff.

We pray the clue meteor lands on the design office, and takes out the coffee machine, so you all stop tweaking. We mean that. Stop. Drinking.

[zappy]

tehehe, this is great!

the top players that have swapped their DPS builds to inq for all reaper raiding situations are all glad they get to go back to their favorite playstyle instead of dual crossbow, the 1-20 TR people are happy that they can go back to their favorite builds as inq has been nerfed to a good level and ratcatcher has been nerfed to be more balanced. all around great changes

the sad part is that this has been the first time that newer players and players that are were not really ready for endgame had a chance to play with good DPS. I can only hope that ssg learns from the joy that inquisitor has brought to mass part of the playerbase and removes some of the grind that is required to make top tier DPS in other styles. all you needed to do amazing dps is 3 pieces of quest gear from sharn and a free crossbow from ravenloft and putting whatever class in with 41 points in inquisitor. thats an easy build, making any other kind of build is a very uphill battle vs that.

I myself was pushed into making my main a top DPS inquisitor muticlass that steelstar did not test in his 100 hours of balance testing and I hate it although the DPS is insane and required to keep up with all the others that were playing it

just for a little background, some numbers that not a lot of people know.

as an inquisitor on my build, i was hitting monsters on elite difficulty at level 30 for over 2000 damage per hit and hitting very very quickly with 120 doubleshot and 400 range power, much more quickly than even a pure ranger with 100% offhand/mainhand doublestrike. All that power while also having 3000 HP and 220 PRR/100MRR and a good dodge in reaper mode. I have seen screenshots of friends with up to 508 range power with stars aligned buffs. The biggest hit I ever had was 4 shots of 77,000, 72,000, 68,000, 68,000. This was vs the mage fire cannon on the ship that cannot go helpless. this is too much DPS for this game.

on reaper 10, my inquisitor build is base hitting for around 200 damage per hit + law damage and sneak attack and critting for 7-10k+ with full IPS, when buffed and ready I can take out a doom reaper on r10 within 3-5 seconds, and clearing entire hallways on r10 in just a few seconds, from miles away. bosses with full debuffs, I am base hitting for over 300 base damage + law damage and sneak attack making r10's no challenge at all.

the game got easy, I could solo r10's. I left at Christmas time and have not played since, I hate my over performing build and am super glad it is getting nerfed so that i can go back to playing what I want to play! thanks for the changes! many people will be sad that they have to change builds back but I for one am very thankful

[Wongar]

Some quick feedback after testing on Lam

Repeating xbows have a massively reduced fire rate. I did multiple tests with the same build on Lam and on live. On Lam, the reload animation is very slow. It takes about 50% longer to empty a quiver on Lam than it does on Live. Example - if I can shoot X bolts on live in 60 seconds, it takes 90 seconds on Lam to shoot the same number of bolts. This was on a level 12 using a heavy repeater with heavy repeater proficiency, rapid reload and rapid shot feats. It was stated that fire rates on repeaters was not supposed to be changed so I am hoping this is a bug as it is painfully slow on Lam.

Tried Archers focus on a ranger DWS build. Archers focus is just bad with the changes. I am one of the seemingly few who preferred Archers Focus over IPS and really enjoy it on live. I like needing to plan and position to build up stacks - that is all gone now. No more fun building stacks and planning your moves to keep stacks. No more fun feeling that little power boost as a reward for good play. Now it just feels like a very small, very short term passive buff and not worth worrying about. This change also eliminates Archers Focus as one of the very few things in the game that discourages kiting - please don't take away every reason to just not hold down the fire button and run backwards.

Improved Archers Focus in the DWS tree is all but worthless now as outside of a boss beatdown, I don't see how you will ever get more than a few stacks so no benefit in increasing the max. I was able to target a test Kobald and get stacks to 25 so it does still work but I don't see ever getting there in normal questing.

Aimed Shot does not work on Lam - it no longer adds 3 stacks to Archers Focus as it is supposed to.

I really dislike the Archers focus change - it totally removes the fun of using Archers focus and in my opinion takes away the best Tier 5 in DWS by making Improved Archers Focus useless. This change does not just nerf but completely destroys the way I like to play my DWS ranger. On live I use stealth to move up on mobs and position, while stealthed id the mobs and prioritize, be still for archers focus to kick in, open with an aimed shot to jump start archers focus stacks, switch often between targeted mobs to mix CC and DPS so I don't have to move. My whole DWS ranger play style is based on optimizing Archers Focus. There is nothing speedy or overpowered about this so I see no good reason to remove it from the game. I especially see no reason to destroy it in the name of balance for unrelated builds.

Consider making the new Improved Archers Focus work like the current. This would give people who like the Archers Focus play style a way to continue playing it.

[mikarddo]

as an inquisitor on my build, i was hitting monsters on elite difficulty at level 30 for over 2000 damage per hit and hitting very very quickly with 120 doubleshot and 400 range power, much more quickly than even a pure ranger with 100% offhand/mainhand doublestrike. All that power while also having 3000 HP and 220 PRR/100MRR and a good dodge in reaper mode. I have seen screenshots of friends with up to 508 range power with stars aligned buffs. The biggest hit I ever had was 4 shots of 77,000, 72,000, 68,000, 68,000. This was vs the mage fire cannon on the ship that cannot go helpless. this is too much DPS for this game.

I will bite. How are/were you getting 400 ranged power?

[capsela]

tehehe, this is great!

the top players that have swapped their DPS builds to inq for all reaper raiding situations are all glad they get to go back to their favorite playstyle instead of dual crossbow, the 1-20 TR people are happy that they can go back to their favorite builds as inq has been nerfed to a good level and ratcatcher has been nerfed to be more balanced. all around great changes

the sad part is that this has been the first time that newer players and players that are were not really ready for endgame had a chance to play with good DPS. I can only hope that ssg learns from the joy that inquisitor has brought to mass part of the playerbase and removes some of the grind that is required to make top tier DPS in other styles. all you needed to do amazing dps is 3 pieces of quest gear from sharn and a free crossbow from ravenloft and putting whatever class in with 41 points in inquisitor. thats an easy build, making any other kind of build is a very uphill battle vs that.

I myself was pushed into making my main a top DPS inquisitor muticlass that steelstar did not test in his 100 hours of balance testing and I hate it although the DPS is insane and required to keep up with all the others that were playing it

just for a little background, some numbers that not a lot of people know.

as an inquisitor on my build, i was hitting monsters on elite difficulty at level 30 for over 2000 damage per hit and hitting very very quickly with 120 doubleshot and 400 range power, much more quickly than even a pure ranger with 100% offhand/mainhand doublestrike. All that power while also having 3000 HP and 220 PRR/100MRR and a good dodge in reaper mode. I have seen screenshots of friends with up to 508 range power with stars aligned buffs. The biggest hit I ever had was 4 shots of 77,000, 72,000, 68,000, 68,000. This was vs the mage fire cannon on the ship that cannot go helpless. this is too much DPS for this game.

on reaper 10, my inquisitor build is base hitting for around 200 damage per hit + law damage and sneak attack and critting for 7-10k+ with full IPS, when buffed and ready I can take out a doom reaper on r10 within 3-5 seconds, and clearing entire hallways on r10 in just a few seconds, from miles away. bosses with full debuffs, I am base hitting for over 300 base damage + law damage and sneak attack making r10's no challenge at all.

the game got easy, I could solo r10's. I left at Christmas time and have not played since, I hate my over performing build and am super glad it is getting nerfed so that i can go back to playing what I want to play! thanks for the changes! many people will be sad that they have to change builds back but I for one am very thankful

Oh the humanity...

[0ldschool]

For me, the nerf to IPS sucks. I can barely run LE or hang with the low reaper parties (mostly all that there is) as it is with my first-life mechanic. I'm likely just not a good enough player yet to build for optimal DPS, but that's the boat that a lot of us newer players are in. This seems very heavy handed. Can this not be more targeted to specific builds that have been deemed OP? Is there a synergy with EF that is the problem? Could you enable the 20% damage drop only in more specific instances, with whatever stacking issues are OP? I just wanted to give the perspective of newer player with a pure rogue GxB mechanic (full Wallwatch optimized leg geareset) who feels anything but OP compared to almost every other endgame player on my server.

[Son_of_the_South]

The biggest hit I ever had was 4 shots of 77,000, 72,000, 68,000, 68,000.

Video please.

[Deathmaster35]

All these changes to ranged in general instead of fixing the broken abilities. Inquisitive was broken overpowered on launch, lots of people noticed and provided feedback about it.

this just doenst make sense. Inquisitive has several overpowered abilities in their tree. They have combo powers that you spend 1 or 2 AP to get far more than what other trees get

Example: Inquisitor's Path cost 1 point and provides 2 law on your side dice, 10 ranged power and 30 ranged alacrity.
Another being No Holds Barred which not only gives the same Attack as Endless Fusillade plus 5 ranged power plus 10% double shot! Mechanic has to spend three points at tier 5 to get 10% double shot, Inquisitive gets it as an extra bonus to an overpowered action boost purchase
Shoot First costs 1 point for a +3 W attack.. other trees would be spending 3 points to get a +3 W attack
another big problem is the level 12 core ability, you get true seeing, +1 threat range +1 crit multiplier and 2 law on your side dice

The tree itself is the problem that needs to be fixed, you built a horribly broken tree that you need to balance, not screw over all ranged combat to combat the impact a broken tree has on the game. spread their abilities out so they have to spend more points to buy them, increase the costs on the ones that are too cheap and nerf the ones that are just flat out broken. For example instead of tossing law on your side dice around as free bonus extras, make abilities that have three ranks with 1 die each, so they have to spend 3 points to get three dice and make it a chain going up to be a point dump. The more points that have to be spent in the Inquisitive tree the less the player has to balance out the character or get more power from other trees.

TL;DR
The inquisitive tree itself is the problem, not the combat style

[droid327]

My thought on AF: add a short term buff on kil that prevents stacks from being lost, like 5 seconds, or until you gain another stack.

I get that the goal is to get you to focus on one target at a time, but you shouldn't be penalized for killing them - that should be the goal. It's not breaking your focus to move on to the next target after one dies. Letting you chain mobs to build stacks would encourage the intended gameplay and might actually make players consider using it vs trash and not just a boss beater.

[Bobby88888]

As a long time crossbow player I am surprised, disheartened and concerned to see these changes to ranged combat and inquisitive and would like to take the time to present some counter points and suggestions. *WARNING WALL OF TEXT*

Disclaimer: Nobody likes being nerfed and I am no exception.

Firstly I would disagree on the claim that Inquis is too strong *when compared to other builds*. I play an Inquis at end game and it is a good one, but I am frequently outperformed by the top end classes. Inquis is strong, but is outperformed frequently at end game. Which is fine, it doesn't need to be top dog. If you think its too strong though perhaps try some gentler, more targeted balance changes. Don't rush this for the sake of HC, its already done enough damage to this game.

While I agree that the crossbow styles could use some re balancing, the suggestion that repeaters are "close to where the balance point needs to be" with the xbow vs bow debate alarms me. I would play just about any other build in the game over a repeater they are under-performing so much. they could stand for some significant buffs, not as a good comparison point.
Great crossbow could use a little bump up too. Bows need a lot of help but is beyond my scope of expertise so I shall refrain from further comment there, same goes for throwers.

On the ranged vs melee debate, no matter how much you pare back ranged, it will always win, simply because of how hard mobs hit in reaper (and in high level raids too), but ranged AoE is not excessive in my opinion, a line is much harder to use than a sphere centered on self. THF is also beyond my area of expertise but it seems you are giving them a lot more AoE, so even if ranged had too much compared to them, their significant bump should put them where they need to be while leaving ranged, in the vicinity of where it should be. I will come back to this when I get to IPS though.

Anyone claiming a lack of incentive to use Archer's focus (AF) and focus on a single target has had a very different experience to me. I have found that, while i use IPS more than AF, I still use it a significant portion of the time (bosses, sub-bosses, critical enemies, or even scenarios where I am unlikely to benefit from IPS). I consider AF to be a valuable tool in my toolkit. It might be a little on the weak side but I hesitate to call for a buff and I ultimately feel it should stay as is.


Archer's Focus
Talking on Lam to a dev, they said something to the effect of (as I understood it), 'there was no way that this would retain its only on standing still functionality'. While I personally believe it was fine, the current lam version greatly reduces its usability, with stacks being reset on target change, so I have brainstormed some counter proposals for consideration (Disclaimer, numbers aren't necessarily balanced, consider them to be more placeholders than hard and fast suggestions)

When moving with archer's focus on, each stack provides 2 rp and you can only gain a stack every 2 seconds, after standing stationery for a period of time (same duration from live) you may gain stacks every 1 second and each stack provides 4 rp instead of 2 rp. Stacks are gained by attacking any target as on live.

This opens up the ability to be used whilst moving, but at a reduced capacity from current live, whilst maintaining a reason for the character to want to stand still. I feel that this sort of approach can give the best of both worlds, loosening the restrictions on movement, but keeping it to still encourage tactical play by considering your position as well as if/when to move and where to.

Another option would be to make it so that attacks while moving can reset the current duration left on the ability but not increase the stack size, stand still to build it up but once you have it you can keep it while you keep shooting.

Alternatively make it work as is on live but can be used while moving. I don't like this solution though. Feels like a real loss to tactical game-play.

As it stands I feel I'm not really encouraged to use either AF or IPS under your new scheme, with one being arbitrarily penalized and the other giving minor situational buffs. These feats are the cornerstone of existing ranged DPS, if you take them out the whole thing falls apart.


Improved Precise Shot
I gotta say this change came out of left field for me. -20% damage is a huge penalty. There has to be something better that can be done here. Oftentimes when I am running around I will only be hitting 1-2 targets with this, sometimes 3, its not all that common to be getting 4+. If you aren't a short race it suddenly becomes a lot harder to IPS through a lot of mob types too.

If its doing too much being able to hit a theoretically unlimited number of mobs, then perhaps it can be made to only be able to hit a certain number. 3 pops out to me as a good amount, enough it feels useful but not too many that you can hit every mob in the dungeon at once. Besides, its never been very realistic to be able to shoot/throw a projectile through 5+ enemies. By decreasing the maximum target count and leaving damage as is I feel a better overall result is achieved that will leave players more satisfied and understanding while still limiting ranged AoE capabilities. You could also go for some sort of scaling on the number of targets but what to scale it off escapes me. Maybe BAB since it currently does no animation scaling for some ranged combat styles (specifically dual xbow styles).

Alternatively, have the currently target enemy, hard or soft targeted, takes full damage and any other enemies hit take the reduced damage (which should be a 20 reduction in rp not flat -20% damage btw). This way you aren't penalized for running in IPS if your only hitting one creature, but it still limits AoE capabilities. A solid solution.


Rapid Reload
Dual Crossbows
I did some RoF testing on live and lam and found that as per usual attack speed boosts and penalties have very little effect, resulting in a 3% at lvl 4 penalty to attack speed and a 0.5% penalty at cap. Small tweaks like this are the way to go if your trying to re-balance something that is already in a good spot. I don't like it but it will bring it down to match other ranged build options.


Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred
Please, whatever you do, do not reinstate any animation at the start of this ability. It was removed when NHB was added for a reason!

The animation takes 2.5+ seconds to go through by my timing, which makes it unusable mid combat, which is the only time I ever use my Fusillades/NHBs.

They are over-performing compared to other action boosts, but due to limited uses and cooldowns (unless your in LD, but why are you in LD?) you cannot maintain 100% uptime. I can see the argument for this to be tweaked downwards (especially if someone went all out on AB charged and is running around with over 20 uses, but most ppl have 9-12, 15 tops in my experience) if you are looking to do this, perhaps reevaluate the effects of the ability rather than adding use animations, or increase the cooldown slightly. Animation triggers on use a real pain, especially on something that is meant to be a mid combat panic button.


Law on Your Side
While I don't agree Inquis is over-performing, this is the sort of change that should be made to bring it into line.


Doubleshot
The first point I want to make is that all doubleshot for all styles already scales at a lesser rate. Doublestrike items provide nearly double that of equivalent doubleshot items, and features more bonus types. That said, lets talk doubleshot scaling with weapon styles.

Reapeaters
Scale with 33% doubleshot. This is ridiculous really and should be set to scale normally. I would never touch a repeater as they stand now and they could really use the love.

Dual xbows
Scale with 67% also seems harsh and unreasonable and should be left at 100%. Dual crossbows are not over-performing compared to other builds like many people seem to be making them out to be, and the other balance changes should more than pull them back in line with any builds they were creeping past.

Great/single xbows
Scale with 100%. Honestly, single crossbows/great crossbows should not receive the global doubleshot penalty applied to all ranged styles, ie they should scale with say 120% doubleshot.


I guess it boils down to the fact that I question the legitimacy of the claims that any ranged combat is over-performing, I concur that compared to most present ranged weapon combat Inquis is better off (though there are other options that are not far behind), but that just means the others could use help not that Inquis should be cut down to match them. And on the ranged weapon vs melee weapon, ranged is winning but it will always win due to reaper and content design making mobs hit so hard, however this pass offers some buffs to melee to help start bridging that gap, again, they should be bought up, not ranged down.

IF Inquis is a problem, polish the Inquis tree to solve the problem (some things should probably cost another AP in the tree)

You are doing a ranged pass you really should take the opportunity to fix ranged while your at it rather than making the only usable ranged options bad and the bad options worse. I am disappointed and confused by this entire pass. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke.

I think the problem is similar to the warlock problem, it is easier to get an Inquis off the ground and running nicely, but they cap out a long way from being the top builds, and it still takes a lot of investment and effort to really make them shine.
People see it getting a good start and panic that it will just keep going like that.

I have spent years working on my crosbow build, since before most anyone else cared about them, it is very displeasing to see the play-style arbitrarily smashed just when it started to become a viable option rather than actually balancing ranged combat.

TLDR
It seems to me that some of the harsher restrictions should be eased and/or ignored
-Don't nerf AF, if anything buff it or leave as is.
-Reconsider the global damage penalty for IPS, either reduce targets it can hit or make the damage reduction on secondary targets only
-Rapid reload and Law dice nerfs are minor but should be all is needed to pull inquis in line with other ranged builds
- doubleshot should not be nerfed on dual xbows and instead buffed on all other xbows

[vryxnr]

• 
  
  • Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred now play a Reload animation on activation before the effect starts. (This is shorter than the previous activation animation this skill had, though it now plays consistently).

Ok, either I've never had the reload animation play for me ever until now, or something is very very wrong. Right now (on Lam-Land) the pre-animation for No Holds Barred is PAINFULLY SLOW! Like suddenly I'm in slow motion, fatigued, slowed, and suffering from troglodyte stink all at the same time. It takes ages to go from clicking/activating NHB to being able to do anything again.

I'd rather have it's duration reduced by the time it takes the animation to play or have a longer cooldown, than have to suffer through that slow motion animation every activation.