U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[Zer0AcmE]

Divine Might needs to be Tier 1 and only cost 3 points just like Cleric and FvS.

[oraness]

Was the current functionality any good? I honestly wasn't aware players were fond of this spell. I absolutely don't mind another rework - what would you like the spell to do?

I personally love the idea behind stalwart pact - something to cast on yourself before a fight that gives you a little boost when things start heading south. That being said, it does seem to scale a little poorly in epic levels since it doesn't scale with any kind of spell amp - is that something that could be in the cards? Or if the intended direction is to boost melee and ranged power add that effect scaling at half caster level after the spell procs?

[GoldyGopher]

Angelskin: Now grants +1 Sacred bonus to AC and +1 Sacred bonus to PRR per caster level.

Gives out +20 MRR and +20 PRR

[SirValentine]

Was the current functionality any good? I honestly wasn't aware players were fond of this spell. I absolutely don't mind another rework - what would you like the spell to do?

It's useful for the same reason as the SDK PL stance, or Guardian Angel ED feat: when you're in trouble (i.e., when you need it most), it provides you with extra defenses. And it's triggering also gives you a visual alert that you're in trouble. (Yes, sometimes some of us don't immediately notice that our HP are down. This makes it easier to notice.)

The current live version in DDO gives only about half the bonus as the version in the D&D source book, Complete Divine. Complete Divine version gives 5 HP per caster level, and +4 Luck bonus to saves, along with the 5/Magic DR, as opposed to the 5 HP per 2 caster levels and +2 Luck in DDO.

I'd be fine with it left as it as on live, or made to match the Complete Divine version. But completely changing it from a when-you-need-it-most defense into just another always-on offensive buff doesn't really seem appropriate.

I second the other poster's comment that you could just create a separate buff spell that "grants you +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level for its duration" without calling it Stalwart Pact.

Honest answer: Because I made over 100 for Alchemist and don't wanna make any more spells, please, anything but that, nooooo

But...if it's up on Lama, doesn't that mean most of the work on that spell is already done? I personally don't really care if you add the new melee/ranged power buff thing or not; others might.

[axebender]

Honest answer: Because I made over 100 for Alchemist and don't wanna make any more spells, please, anything but that, nooooo

any chance for a holy sword rework? maybe change the bonus type to scale with other bonuses? pretty pretty pleassssse.

[Lynnabel]

But...if it's up on Lama, doesn't that mean most of the work on that spell is already done? I personally don't really care if you add the new melee/ranged power buff thing or not; others might.

When I was doing this spell rework, my options were either kidnap an existing spell (which also neatly cleans up the spellbook - less spells that are clunky and don't really scale) or make a new one. I opted for the former.

[janave]

All 3 ranks of Divine Sacrifice: Ranged tooltip shows the same, as if was not upgraded. (no playtest yet, just leveling up)

[axebender]

Divine Might needs to be Tier 1 and only cost 3 points just like Cleric and FvS.

id like to see the divine presence and the divine will alternates added just like war priest

[SirValentine]

...spells that are clunky and don't really scale...

The trigger-at-50% already scales itself. The save bonus to the d20 save roll doesn't need to scale.

The temp HP doesn't scale well right now, but as I pointed out, it's only half the value from the pen-and-paper source. If you're looking for ideas to make it scale better, I'd suggest the temp HP be 5 per caster level (per Complete Divine), plus 10(?) per Epic level of the recipient (if you can do that). I.e., 95 temp HP from at caster level 19, or 225 temp HP with CL 25 on a level 30 target.

5/Magic DR doesn't scale, it's true.

[ValariusK]

All of the divine level 6 abilities are pretty decent with a few exceptions. Can we make "Search the soul" something other than a newb trap? For instance, this would still be inferior to unyielding sovereignty or most of the rest:
+3 concentration skill, +3 ranged power +3 melee power +3 universal spell power.
Serious min-maxers wouldn't take it, but it wouldn't totally suck for people who prefer passives.

[Steelstar]

All of the divine level 6 abilities are pretty decent with a few exceptions. Can we make "Search the soul" something other than a newb trap? For instance, this would still be inferior to unyielding sovereignty or most of the rest:
+3 concentration skill, +3 ranged power +3 melee power +3 universal spell power.
Serious min-maxers wouldn't take it, but it wouldn't totally suck for people who prefer passives.

It's not meant to be a good choice, it's meant for feat swaps. And should say so in its tooltip.

[justsomeguy999]

As other people have noted, divine might is a bit lackluster compared to the warpriest/war soul version. I understand that SSG is wary about adding another easy 1 level multiclass to get access to divine might, but I think that changing the AP cost and/or making it cost SP instead of turn undead uses would be very nice for paladins without making it exploitable.

I like the support for KOTC being anti undead/evil outsider and getting bonuses specific to that - would it be possible for Blessed purpose to have some kind of diminished effect against other enemies though (maybe half-strength)? Or perhaps add something like that in the capstone? The way SSG has tended to make content packs means that the effectiveness of enemy type specific stuff is going to depend a lot on what's been released recently. This isn't necessarily bad but with these changes the effect could be pretty extreme, where a paladin player just feels overly weak if the only groups up are for content without undead/evil outsiders.

Clarification question about Holy Retribution. Overall looks solid, having the DC scale is nice, but is it still a multi-hit attack? Currently it hits multiple targets and swings multiple times, is that functionality staying or is it being changed to a standard cleave animation? The latter would obviously be a fair damage downgrade for the ability, since the cooldown is also increasing substantially. Just making sure what the intention is here?

Finally, something relevant to KOTC and the THF changes that I'll mention here. With strike-through currently not applying to special attacks, this does mean that a 'standard' paladin that doesn't multiclass and runs in Divine Crusader will not benefit very much from the strikethrough changes, since they get enough cleave/AoE special attacks that you can chain them together without having to do standard auto-attacks very much. I'm not saying that's necessarily the end of the world, but it would be great to get some clarification as to what's intended here, because it would be a shame if the changes were intended to boost paladin/thf AoE but didn't shift it much since you need to be not cleaving/smiting/etc. to benefit from it.

[Arlathen]

My initial sweep on the changes from a pure Level 20 THF Paladin:

- Add Strikethrough Chance to character sheet
- Remove Glancing Blow References
- My level 20 Paladin now has 2 Smite Evil feats. Any difference?

Old Bugs:
- Please clarify the text of Slayer of Evil "now grants +?? To Attack Evil Creatures" - Is this just Attack or is it Damage as well? Is this supposed to be Evil Creatures in total or Evil Outsiders and Undead?
- Should Courage of Heaven bonus to Attack also be adding a Damage bonus as well?
- Please clarify the text of Champion of Good - "The bonuses granted by Courage are increased by an additional +2". Which bonuses?

New Bugs
- Divine Might states it is now SP based. In testing, it continues to consume Turn Undead charges. What's supposed to be up here?
- Exalted Cleave states old rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken
- Avenging Cleave states old rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken
- Exalted Smite does not grant the temporary Melee Power boost that is supposed to come from the rolled in Empowered Smite
- Censure Demons has a pre-requisite of Divine Sacrifice
- Censure Outsiders has no pre-requisite, and should have Censure Demons as a pre-requisite?
- Ascendant Training is currently named Sacred Shield
- Ascendant Training has a Pre-requisite of Knight's training, but none of the other Combatant enhancements have any pre-requisites. Is this intentional?


- Knight's Training has confusing wording around the Attack and Damage bonuses to all enemies and favoured enemies - do they stack when attacking with a favoured weapon?
- Therefore, does the full line Combatant line thus grant +4/+4 Attack/Damage with non-Favoured Weapons and a stacking +6/+6 Attack/Damage with Favoured Weapons?

Further Suggested Improvements
- Should Rally not have better scaling bonuses? +1%/+2%/+3% to Attack Damage, similar to the Capstone?
- Make Divine Might the Cleric/FvS version and use SP instead of Turn Undead charges.
- Make Ascendant Training so that the Melee Power buff is granted on attacking Evil enemies

More to come when I test tomorrow.

[Steelstar]

My initial sweep on the changes from a pure Level 20 THF Paladin:

- Add Strikethrough Chance to character sheet
- Remove Glancing Blow References
- My level 20 Paladin now has 2 Smite Evil feats. Any difference?

Old Bugs:
- Please clarify the text of Slayer of Evil "now grants +?? To Attack Evil Creatures" - Is this just Attack or is it Damage as well? Is this supposed to be Evil Creatures in total or Evil Outsiders and Undead?
- Should Courage of Heaven bonus to Attack also be adding a Damage bonus as well?
- Please clarify the text of Champion of Good - "The bonuses granted by Courage are increased by an additional +2". Which bonuses?

New Bugs
- Divine Might states it is now SP based. In testing, it continues to consume Turn Undead charges. What's supposed to be up here?
- Exalted Cleave states old rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken
- Avenging Cleave states old rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken
- Exalted Smite does not grant the temporary Melee Power boost that is supposed to come from the rolled in Empowered Smite
- Censure Demons has a pre-requisite of Divine Sacrifice
- Censure Outsiders has no pre-requisite, and should have Censure Demons as a pre-requisite?
- Ascendant Training is currently named Sacred Shield
- Ascendant Training has a Pre-requisite of Knight's training, but none of the other Combatant enhancements have any pre-requisites. Is this intentional?


- Knight's Training has confusing wording around the Attack and Damage bonuses to all enemies and favoured enemies - do they stack when attacking with a favoured weapon?
- Therefore, does the full line Combatant line thus grant +4/+4 Attack/Damage with non-Favoured Weapons and a stacking +6/+6 Attack/Damage with Favoured Weapons?

Further Suggested Improvements
- Should Rally not have better scaling bonuses? +1%/+2%/+3% to Attack Damage, similar to the Capstone?
- Make Divine Might the Cleric/FvS version and use SP instead of Turn Undead charges.
- Make Ascendant Training so that the Melee Power buff is granted on attacking Evil enemies

More to come when I test tomorrow.

That second Smite Evil feat is the Ranged version; we'll make that clearer. We'll take a look at the rest of this, thanks for sending it our way.

[smokejumper89]

So we still aren't getting charisma to hit/damage on anything other than PDKs?

[Aelonwy]

Just checked and tested. Divine Might is now only 1 Ap per rank. But it claims in its tooltip to use sp points instead of Turn charges now and in reality it takes BOTH sp points AND a turn charge.

[Itchybeard]

Was the current functionality any good? I honestly wasn't aware players were fond of this spell. I absolutely don't mind another rework - what would you like the spell to do?

Since you asked...

I'm not playing a divine at the moment, so here is what wiki says:
Grants the target 5 Temporary hit points for every 2 caster levels (rounded up), a +2 luck bonus to Saving Throws and Damage Reduction 5/Magic, all for 1 minute, if the target of the spell falls below 50% Hit points.

My first character was Itchybeard, a Dwarven Cleric. I used this spell all the time. I personally loved it. However, the DR just doesn't seem to work in today's game world. Maybe add what you want, but perhaps do some kind of % DR like Barbarian has? Maybe 1% per caster level? Maybe increase the duration beyond 1 minute once the target goes below 50% HP? The bonus to saves, temp hp, and your new suggestion all seem good. If needed, raise the SP cost of the spell to reflect the change.

Having these bonuses happen when you drop below 50% is actually really nice in a pinch. Thank you for your consideration!

[Fnordian]

When I was doing this spell rework, my options were either kidnap an existing spell (which also neatly cleans up the spellbook - less spells that are clunky and don't really scale) or make a new one. I opted for the former.

While the new buff sounds useful enough, it's a totally different type of buff and doesn't really fulfill the same role.

Also, Stalwart Pact seems more unique as a spell; it would be a shame to lose that.

[J-mann]

While the new buff sounds useful enough, it's a totally different type of buff and doesn't really fulfill the same role.

Also, Stalwart Pact seems more unique as a spell; it would be a shame to lose that.

Her new spell is far more useful in todays game than stalwart pact is. The temp hp is too small to matter and the dr is a joke in todays game. Now I wouldnt mind a retooled actually useful defensive version of the spell.

[Xgya]

I'd love Stalwart Pact to instead be some kind of Wizard's Arcane Barrier that you could pass around.
Short, meaningful defensive buff at a crucial time, with something visible so you get a clue to back off and recoup.
If the effects seem too similar, make it grant temp HPs equal to a percentage of the target's own, but lasting for about as long as the Arcane Barrier did, with a trigger like the Cleric's Reactive Healing preventing you from getting the buff again for however long you think is adequate.

It's meant to make you Stalwart, after all. Not violent, or deadlier.

I'd love for your new idea of a spell to exist standalone though Lyn. Having 9 spells to choose from instead of 8 sounds swell.