U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[Cocomajobo]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Here's our current plan for KOTC for Update 45. Our goals are to:

• Increase the overall viability of DPS Weapon-based Paladins
• Move abilities in the tree that augment Paladin feats out of tiers where you don't have the feat yet (Remove Disease, Turn Undead, etc)
• Provide some incentive to use Favored Weapons as well as add synergy with alternate Favored Weapons from Wood Elf, Inquisitive, Divine Crusader

Basic Paladin:

• Remove Disease now starts with 4 charges/rest.
• Level 1 Paladins get a Ranged version of the Smite Evil feat.

Overall Divines:
Changes to Deity Feat Structure have been made to bring alternate-Favored-Weapons up to speed with "traditional" ones, and to make respeccing into a new Deity easier. For Divines using their Deity's Favored Weapon, these changes should be a net zero change in Attack/Damage.

• "Follower" Deity Feats (usually obtained with your first Divine level) now designate your Deity's weapon as a "Favored Weapon", grant proficiency with that weapon, and grant +1 to Attack with all Favored Weapons.
• "Child of" Deity Feats (the level 3 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Child of Faith: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield. Simple and Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Child of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Child of" Feats.
• "Beloved of" Deity Feats (the level 12 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Beloved of the Divine: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield: Simple Favored Weapons gain +3 to Attack and Damage. Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Beloved of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Beloved of" Feats.
• Characters with at least 6 Divine levels can now take a new feat in place of the Active feat related to their Deity: "Search the Soul: You are seeking guidance to new paths of Faith. Passive: You gain +3 to the Concentration skill. As this Feat has no particular required Deity, while you have this feat (and assuming you meet all other requirements), you can exchange your Deity with a Feat Exchange (using normal Feat Exchange rules and costs).

Knight of the Chalice:

Cores:

• Light Damage in the Cores now scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, in addition to other changes below.
• Core 1: Unchanged.
• Core 2: Unchanged.
• Core 3: In addition to what this already does, you also gain +3 Remove Disease Charges and your Remove Disease now applies Greater Restoration to your target.
• Core 4: In addition to what this already does: Sealed Life: Immunity to Energy Drain.
• Core 5: Unchanged.
• Core 6: In addition to what this already does: Your Aura of Courage now grants allies a +3% Sacred Bonus to melee and ranged damage. Blessed Purpose now stacks up to 25 times.

Tier 1:

• Extra Turning: Removed, added to Tier 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Holy Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons.
  
  
• Extra Smite: MOVED but otherwise unchanged
• NEW: Shieldbreaker: +1/2/3 to Sunder DCs. (Sunder DCs are now used in Holy Retribution).
• Extra Remove Disease: Removed, Added to Core 3
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Authority: Multiselector: Active that debuffs Will, Fortitude, or Reflex. (This is a copy of Swash's Insults with different flavor, multiselector that lets them debuff enemy saves.)
  
  
• Attack Boost: Removed, made multiselector with Power Boost in Tier 2
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Command: +1/2/3 to Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 to Fortitude Saves

Tier 2:

• Improved Turning: Removed, added to Tier 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Adept Combatant: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons. Longswords, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, and War Hammers are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion.
  
  
• Divine Might: Unchanged
• Rally:Unchanged
• Exalted Cleave: Reduced to 1 rank at 2AP (with third rank's effects)
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Melee/Ranged Power Boost: Unchanged
  
  • MOVED: Multiselector: AB Attack

Tier 3:

• Improved Restoration: Removed, added to Core 3
  
  • Replaced With: Holy Combatant: +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Greatswords are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion.
  
  
• Divine Sacrifice: Add +2[w], add in Passion's effects (upgraded): On damage: gain +15 Temporary SP and +10 Melee and Ranged Power for 10 seconds if you strike an Undead or Evil Outsider with this attack.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Vigor of Life: REMOVED, rolled into T4 and T5.
  
  • Replaced With: Lead the Charge: +2/3/5[w], sprint forward toward your target and deliver a single-target blow. 6 second cooldown. (1ap per rank). This works like Vanguard's Shield Charge, but it's single-target and works with any Melee weapon.
  
  
• Exalted Smite: Rolls in Empowered Smite: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities increases Melee Power by 5 for 10 seconds.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Ability Score: Unchanged

Tier 4:

• Passion: Removed, added to Divine Sacrifice.
  
  • Replaced With: Knight's Training: +1 to hit and damage with all weapons and +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. You gain the Knight's Training feat.
  
  
• Censure Demons: Unchanged (shifts right in the tree)
• Vigor of Life: Now +30 Positive Healing Amp and -30 Negative Healing Amp.
  
  • NOTE: Vigor of Life now actually reduces Negative Healing Amp, as opposed to reducing Negative Vulnerability as it was doing before.
  
  
• Empowered Smite: Removed, rolled into Exalted Smite
  
  • Replaced With: Improved Turning: You gain +1/2/3 use of Turn Undead per rest. You also count as 1/2/3 level higher when turning undead and add 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice turned. Finally, your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.
  
  
• Ability Score: Unchanged

Tier 5:

• Sealed Life: Removed, added to Core 4.
  
  • Replaced With: Ascendant Training: +2 to hit and damage with all weapons. An additional +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Whenever you attack an undead or evil outsider with a Favored Weapon, you gain a stack of Blessed Purpose: +3 Sacred Bonus to Melee and Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. You can acquire up to 15 stacks by continuing to attack Undead or Evil Outsiders. Switching to a non-Favored Weapon will reset your stacks.
  
  
• Censure Outsiders: Bonus changes to +10 Melee and Ranged Power. Also adds "All other Evil creatures are instead Dazed for six seconds". Shifts right in the tree.
• Vigor of Life: Now +30/-30, as the previous tier.
• Avenging Cleave: Reduced to 1 rank at 2AP (with third rank's effects).
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged attack version.
  
  
• Holy Retribution: Holy Retribution: No longer takes Turn Undead charges. Now only 1 Rank. "Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy cleave against nearby targets that deals +5[W] damage, 100 extra holy damage that scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds, and recharges one Smite Evil charge to you. On Damage: Evil creatures may be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Sunder Bonuses) or be destroyed. Evil creatures under 1000 HP must always make this save or die. Evil creatures between 5000 and 1000 HP have a 50% chance to be forced to make this save or die. Evil creatures with more than 5000 HP have a 33% chance to be forced to make this save or die." 30 second cooldown.
  
  • NEW: Multiselector: Ranged version

Spell Changes:

• Bless: Now scales with caster level - 1 debuff/buff level per 5 levels
• Angelskin Now grants +1 Sacred bonus to AC and +1 Sacred bonus to PRR per caster level.
• Prayer: Now scales with caster level - 1 debuff/buff level per 5 levels
• Stalwart Pact: Delete current functionality: This now grants you +1 Sacred bonus to Melee and Ranged power per caster level for its duration.
• Zeal: Added 10% Doubleshot

Known Issues

• N/A

[Arkat]

So, minor tweeks to KotC.

Helpful to Ranged Paladins but, at first glance, won't move many needles for melee Paladins.

:sigh:

[capsela]

Holy retribution was a cleave before. Is it now single target?

If so isn't that a significant downgrade?

[Zretch]

Holy retribution was a cleave before. Is it now single target?

If so isn't that a significant downgrade?

Edited to say: nevermind

[Steelstar]

Holy retribution was a cleave before. Is it now single target?

If so isn't that a significant downgrade?

That's an older design than what's on Lamannia. Hang tight, getting the current one edited in shortly.

[Steelstar]

That's an older design than what's on Lamannia. Hang tight, getting the current one edited in shortly.

This is fixed now.

[Garix]

"Evil creatures between 5000 and 1000 HP"

Typo i'm guessing. Should be 10k?

EDIT. Just reread it. Now think the values are the wrong way round?

EDIT 2: Think its supposed to read "upto 1K save or die. 1k to 5k: 50% chance for save or die. 5k+ 33% chance to save or die

[Zretch]

So, minor tweeks to KotC.

Helpful to Ranged Paladins but, at first glance, won't move many needles for melee Paladins.

:sigh:

If you're fighting undead or evil outsiders, there looks to be some pretty serious melee power upgrades.

[PsychoBlonde]

Replaced With: Knight's Authority: Multiselector: Active that debuffs Will, Fortitude, or Reflex. (This is a copy of Swash's Insults with different flavor, multiselector that lets them debuff enemy saves.)

The animation delay on Insults is SUPER-annoying and basically makes it unusable. Please don't put that kind of animation on Knight's Authority (and REMOVE it from Insults, it should just be a boom, goes off, or have a high-speed casting animation.)

[PsychoBlonde]

Characters with at least 6 Divine levels can now take a new feat in place of the Active feat related to their Deity: "Search the Soul: You are seeking guidance to new paths of Faith. Passive: You gain +3 to the Concentration skill. As this Feat has no particular required Deity, while you have this feat (and assuming you meet all other requirements), you can exchange your Deity with a Feat Exchange (using normal Feat Exchange rules and costs

Suggest making it so that you can also pick ANY deity feat instead of being bound by your race.

[Steelstar]

EDIT 2: Think its supposed to read "upto 1K save or die. 1k to 5k: 50% chance for save or die. 5k+ 33% chance to save or die

This is right. We'll adjust the wording to be clearer.

Suggest making it so that you can also pick ANY deity feat instead of being bound by your race.

This is something we cannot change at this time.

[Jerevth]

Empowered Smite: Removed, rolled into Exalted Smite

Replaced With: Improved Turning: You gain +1/2/3 use of Turn Undead per rest. You also count as 1/2/3 level higher when turning undead and add 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice turned. Finally, your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.

If a Paladin is built for ranged, relying on melee power for their damage scaling here will make this less than stellar. Can it be made to select the higher of the two instead?

[BigSlugger]

[*]"Child of" Deity Feats (the level 3 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Child of Faith: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield. Simple and Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Child of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Child of" Feats.[*]"Beloved of" Deity Feats (the level 12 Deity Feats) have been replaced with a single new Feat, "Beloved of the Divine: Your connection to your Deity strengthens. You gain bonuses to Attack and Damage rolls with all Favored Weapons you wield: Simple Favored Weapons gain +3 to Attack and Damage. Martial Favored Weapons gain +2 to Attack and Damage. Exotic Favored Weapons gain +1 to Attack and Damage." Players with existing "Beloved of" Feats have had them replaced with this Feat. This feat is gained by the same methods and has the same prerequisites as the old "Beloved of" Feats.

Can we just get these simplified to +2 Attack/Damage and +3 Attack/Damage regardless of weapon class? I feel like this was implemented in an age when the devs were concerned about certain weapons overperforming and I don't see D. Waraxes or B. Swords requiring this smaller bonus. Besides, daggers are one of the better (or best) weapons in the game with the support from Vistani tree.

[Vorachtin]

Overall some pretty decent changes the charge attack suffers from the same geometric problems as dire charge where you might end up in a wall or charging a mob 2 yards of you and end up three rooms over. Nice dmg but that's it, careful you dont charge a mob and wipe trying to use avenging cleave and its 45 minute animation (hyperbole sort of).

The light damage scaling to 200% was a huge bonus the dice need to climb higher especially in the higher cores d8 or up to d-10 suggested.

Suffers with 2hf shines with swf,, that's more of thf issue than kotc

Not kotc, but divine crusader should add strike through to its epic moment in core 6.

[Arlathen]

My second sweep on the changes, I've re-included my original set of feedback and tagged the new stuff to make it easier to digest (sorry for length).

Old Bugs
- Please clarify the text of Slayer of Evil "now grants +?? To Attack Evil Creatures" - Is this just Attack or is it Damage as well? Is this supposed to be Evil Creatures in total or Evil Outsiders and Undead?
- Should Courage of Heaven bonus to Attack also be adding a Damage bonus as well?
- Please clarify the text of Champion of Good - "The bonuses granted by Courage are increased by an additional +2". Which bonuses?

New Bugs
NEW - Clarify the existence of two Smite Evils
NEW - Paladin Lay on Hands scaling has been reduced alongside the changes to Aasimar Healing Hands. Please fix.
NEW - Divine Sacrifice tooltip text isnt updated to new effects
NEW - Divine Sacrifice doesn't proc the Passion effect for temporary SP when the right enemy type is struck
NEW - Divine Sacrifice doesn't proc the Passion effect for temporary SP when the right enemy type is struck

NEW - The Champion of Good upgrade to the Aura of Courage, contributing a 3% Sacred Bonus to Damage, occasionally shows a spell-like buff icon in the middle of the screen when it refreshes.
NEW - Ascedant Training stacks of Blessed Purpose never seem to stack beyond 15 despite having the Champion of Good capstone.
- Ascendant Training is currently named Sacred Shield
- Ascendant Training has a Pre-requisite of Knight's training, but none of the other Combatant enhancements have any pre-requisites. Is this intentional?
- Knight's Training has confusing wording around the Attack and Damage bonuses to all enemies and favoured enemies - do they stack when attacking with a favoured weapon?
- Therefore, does the full line Combatant line thus grant +4/+4 Attack/Damage with non-Favoured Weapons and a stacking +6/+6 Attack/Damage with Favoured Weapons?

UPDATED - Divine Might states it is now SP based on the tooltip. In testing, it continues to consume Turn Undead charges and spell points.
- Exalted Smite does not grant the temporary Melee Power boost that is supposed to come from the rolled in Empowered Smite
- Exalted Cleave states original Rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken.
- Avenging Cleave states original Rank 1 damage bonus of +1(W) when taken.
- Censure Outsiders has no pre-requisite, and should have Censure Demons as a pre-requisite?
- Censure Demons has a pre-requisite of Divine Sacrifice

Spell Duration Bugs
NEW - Angelskin: Tooltip displays original spell duration, but on cast has a duration of 1 Minute per Paladin level.
NEW - Stalwart Pact: Tooltip displays original spell duration, but on cast has a duration of 1 Minute per Paladin level.

Further Suggested Improvements
UPDATED - Divine Might
Update Divine Might to the equivalent Cleric/FvS version and to spell points as a resource instead of Turn Undead charges.

NEW - Light Damage Cores
I think the actual dice used on the Light Damage from cores could use a little love, jumping from 100% to 200% Melee Power scaling has added approx. ~50-75 damage output to this for me, and I honestly believe this should be a better source of Paladin DPS, especially with committing more Paladin levels to obtain the damage given. A similar upgrade path to Eldritch Knight arriving at 6D12 damage would be a decent increase, even if its scaling was still limited by 200% Melee Power which I think is fair given the ability is light damage instead of elemental which is much more easily resisted through the game.

NEW - Lead the Charge
Love this ability. The only change I would make is making it a T1 ability, almost as a defining feature of a KotC Paladin that dashes around from Mob to Mob, smiting as he goes. Even at Higher levels it's nice having this when Dire Charge is on cooldown, as an interim method to move around.

NEW - Knights Command
Its a nice ability, and carrying a personal debuff to improve Holy Retribution or Dire Charge is really nice, but its a has a horrible, uninterruptible animation to it. As a suggestion, if you was to make 'Lead the Charge' a T1 ability, then move Knights Command to being a T2 Passive upgrade that procs the effect on the hit at the end? Rally could be moved up to T3 then, and possibly warrant a small buff as suggested next...

UPDATED - Rally
If its retained in its current spot, this could really use a polish and also a different typing of bonus, as the Morale bonuses don't stack with those granted from the Bless spell (which has been buffed to +5 Morale Bonus). As a suggestion for a T3 ability, make it a passive upgrade to the Bless spell adding the equivalent Morale bonus to Damage, and removing any Fear effects on casting the Bless spell.

NEW - Exalted Smite
I have concerns about this being a T3 ability, either for Melee or Ranged if I'm honest. Vigor of Life isn't a T5 ability, these two could be pushed down to T3/T4 and Exalted Smite pushed up to T5 where it belongs.

NEW - Improved Turning
Would you consider adding Mighty Turning to Improved Turning? Either as a 4th Rank to the ability or increasing Rank 3 to 2AP? Turn builds are getting better itemisation now, and are currently worthwhile in some lower difficulty Too Hot To Handle Raids, but it does grate having to multi-class in Cleric to obtain this enhancement to destroy undead you do manage to successfully turn.

UPDATED - Ascendant Training/Blessed Purpose.
I like this as a powerful but flavourful buff vs Evil Outsiders and Undead, but it could do with a little Quality of Life buff to make it more user friendly to help build stacks. Even in a Quest with fairly dense Outsider concentrations (Mad Tea Party was my testing ground), I rarely built more than 6-8 stacks of this at the appropriate times. Where I find it difficult to make a suggestion though, is that the ability is tied to proccing against various monster types, but once obtained the buff applies to all melee attacks regardless of target monster type. I'm a little out of ideas on this one, but as it is it'll be a really good buff when fighting Evil Outsider or Undead Raid Bosses!

NEW - Bless / Rally
Morale Bonus type clashes with Rally enhancement. I would suggest making Rally a passive upgrade to Bless as detailed above.

NEW - Prayer / Divine Favour / QoL Spell Duration
Luck Bonus Type clashes with Divine Favour, and its upgraded effects supersede Divine Favour with enough Paladin levels invested. Prayer now provides a really nice party buff, and between Prayer and the Champion of Good upgrade to Aura of Courage a Paladin can provide some solid offensive party benefits by including one in a group. However, Prayer and Divine Favour overlaps both in bonus type and duration, so can I suggest that Divine Favour is made to match the same amount of bonus Attack and Damage of Prayer but is increased in duration to 1 min per Paladin level, and Prayer is left as it is? Prayer can then replace Divine Favour in our short term buff cycle, and if we forget then Divine Favour is still backing us personally with the same buff.

NEW - Angel Skin
Sacred Bonus type clashes with enhancements available within Sacred Defender. Would it just worth changing this to a 'Divine' bonus instead? Also, Yes, please keep the duration at 1 minute per Paladin level.

NEW - Stalwart Pact
Sacred Bonus type clashes with bonuses to Melee Power from Celestial Champion in Divine Crusader. However, my thoughts on this is that the new Stalwart Pact is a significant Melee Power upgrade for Paladins in its own right (+20 MP for a 20 minute duration), and I think its a key part of the damage improvements available to Paladins with these changes. This spell is also an incredibly good reason to stick with Paladin levels, since you already want to slot Holy Sword and Zeal as defaults at level 14/15. Even if I was to want to run in Divine Crusader, I wouldn't change this spell, because is its effectively 'always on', lasts 20 minutes and doesn't need stacks building. And yes, please keep the duration at 1 minute per Paladin level.

Side Note: Lyn, I know you don't want to build more spells, but this deserves to be its own new spell and have its own kickass name, so those that want to still take Stalwart Pact in its original form can still do so if they wish. Name suggestions would include 'Righteous Vengeance'.

Phew, sorry it was so long, but wanted to provide as much useful and constructive feedback as possible

[MasterAO]

<snipped>

New Bugs
NEW - Clarify the existence of two Smite Evils
[

That second Smite Evil feat is the Ranged version; we'll make that clearer. We'll take a look at the rest of this, thanks for sending it our way.

Steelstar replied this to your first post in this thread.

[Arlathen]

Steelstar replied this to your first post in this thread.

...I've re-included my original set of feedback and tagged the new stuff to make it easier to digest...

Was trying to keep things in one post to make things simple. Evidently not.

[Scortius]

Upping Extra Turning and Improved Turning to tiers 3 and 4 removes a synergy for paladin-splashed-clerics. Turn Undead was right on the margin of viability as it was. In tiers 3 & 4 I don't think this will work well for either pally-clerics or cleric-paladins, and without a really punchy buff I'd be surprised if turning can be viable for many pure paladins at E or R1. (Arlathen's suggestion above to add Mighty to Improved would certainly help)

The design goal of making it unavailable until paladins have the ability seem reasonable, but excludes builds that dip into this tree. Overall this seems to make a viable Turn Undead harder to reach. Extra Turning will always have uses powering other effects, but I don't see Improved getting used by many.

In the past I worked fairly hard at getting Turn Undead viable, but it works so marginally on anything I care about that I've been sliding away from it.

Maybe you're doing us a favor by yanking away a temptation, but it feels more like a fun option for some builds being taken off the table.

Overall, makes me less likely to spend points in KoTC, not more.

[capsela]

Upping Extra Turning and Improved Turning to tiers 3 and 4 removes a synergy for paladin-splashed-clerics. Turn Undead was right on the margin of viability as it was. In tiers 3 & 4 I don't think this will work well for either pally-clerics or cleric-paladins, and without a really punchy buff I'd be surprised if turning can be viable for many pure paladins at E or R1. (Arlathen's suggestion above to add Mighty to Improved would certainly help)

The design goal of making it unavailable until paladins have the ability seem reasonable, but excludes builds that dip into this tree. Overall this seems to make a viable Turn Undead harder to reach. Extra Turning will always have uses powering other effects, but I don't see Improved getting used by many.

In the past I worked fairly hard at getting Turn Undead viable, but it works so marginally on anything I care about that I've been sliding away from it.

Maybe you're doing us a favor by yanking away a temptation, but it feels more like a fun option for some builds being taken off the table.

Overall, makes me less likely to spend points in KoTC, not more.

Mighty turning is the only thing that makes pali fun to play, IMHO. Hitting cowering undead is a waste of time and effort. Mighty turning or you might as well not have turns at all.

So I agree with all you said.

[Lokeal_The_Flame]

Replaced With: Holy Combatant: +2 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons. Greatswords are considered as favored Weapons regardless of your religion.

Could you please add Bastard swords to this?

Greatswords and Bastard swords rather than just greatswords?