U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[Fedora1]

Also relevant to this thread is this update from https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6287321

All instances of Divine Might (Cleric, Fvs, and Paladin) are now: "Battle Trance: You gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds."

Most single-target special attacks should allow you to Strikethrough, hitting two to three targets.

Smite Evil has been modified to allow Strikethrough.
Exalted Smite has been modified to allow Strikethrough.

[palladin9479]

Check the post directly above yours:



I'll move the typing of the spells around to avoid conflicts, don't worry.

Wait how does this stack with deadly because you might of just nerfed Paladin unintentionally due to gear limits.

All instances of Divine Might (Cleric, Fvs, and Paladin) are now: "Battle Trance: You gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds."
War Soul's Divine Will is now: "Battle Trance: You gain an Insight bonus to Attack, Damage, and the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Wisdom modifier for 30/60/120 seconds."
Divine Might, Divine Will, Harper's Know the Angles, and Falconry's Deadly Instinct's Damage components now provide an actual Insight bonus to Damage (as their tooltips claim they do), meaning:
They all provide Damage to both Melee and Ranged attacks
They do not stack with other Insight bonuses to Damage.
The ones that provide Attack do not stack with other Insight bonuses to Attack.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Hammerfist

Insightful Deadly +8 for +8 damage

Previously the highest Insightful Strength item was +10 for +5 damage / attack.

Does this stack with or replace Insightful Deadly and Insightful Combat Mastery?

Ok reviewed the other thread, thanks you just nerfed Paladin.

Previously Insightful Deadly was +8 Damage on an item that you would be stupid not to use.

Divine Might added Charisma bonus as Strength, meaning at 70 CHA we had +30 Insight Bonus to Strength that gave +22 Damage to THF and SWF users. That +22 Damage stacked with the +8 Damage for +30 total (or any other combination)

Now your adding +15 Insightful Damage that's replacing the +8 Insightful Damage while also having +9 Insightful Strength adding +6.75 Damage. Total is now +21.75.


Steel can you either put it back or give it as a selector because as it stands you just nerfed Paladin.

[palladin9479]

Steel, did you all fix the stacking issues with the new/updated spells and Paladino own trees? Also have you made updates to strike through so it's not a nerf to one of the weakest styles and made it an actual buff? We have seen no updates or comments on the insultingly low strike through percentages. 2hf is pretty heavily linked to pally to me. Make st work with special attacks just like they work with ips and 2wf and increase base strike through and feats to 50% each. Even then that's pretty weak compared to casters unless they are getting 3 targets caps too?

Two handed fighting is Paladins weakest fighting style, all the Great Sword wielding Paladins running around is the reason people laugh at it. Paladin's two strongest styles are Single Weapon Fighting and Sword and Board. Knights Training, which Paladin just got for free, two common Favored Weapons, Long Swords and Warhammers, really powerful. Also both SWF and S&B give an offhand slot that can hold more stats and help lock in set bonus's. Specifically you can get a lot of devotion from an orb to assist in your own self / party healing capability and so forth. SWF and S&B both provide a large boost in attack speed which helps DPS immensely. My SWF builds are notorious for being chainsaws and just chewing through groups of monsters.

THF is for Barbs Fighters and Druids, flex Paladin's hybrid nature with SWF or S&B.

[Dulcimerist]

Healing/Lay On Hands will have its formula corrected in Round 2 of Lamannia.

Is LoH going to be a bit stronger than it currently is on the live server? Trying out my old paladin in low-level heroic reaper, LoH charges seem to rapidly get burned through. LoH is an emergency healing effect to fill up all, or most of, a party member's health bar a limited number of times per rest. In reaper it sometimes takes a couple of LoH charges to accomplish this.

[Fedora1]

Divine Might added Charisma bonus as Strength, meaning at 70 CHA we had +30 Insight Bonus to Strength that gave +22 Damage to THF and SWF users.

Just a note since you mentioned THF above, the THF feats now go up to 3x your ability modifier.

Two Handed:

The Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
The Improved Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 2.5x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.
The Greater Two Handed Fighting feat now raises your Damage bonus from your Ability Score Modifier to 3x that Modifier in addition to its other effects.

[palladin9479]

Just a note since you mentioned THF above, the THF feats now go up to 3x your ability modifier.

I was including that because it was on both, I also mentioned in that post or another that the THF update absorbed the difference but it's still a nerf because those are two completely separate things. Putting it on Insightful Strength was better because of the percentage bonus and better Insightful Deadly being available. Hopefully they will either make it a multi-selector, or upgrade it to + 3/4's of the stat mod instead of 1/2.

Overall the change is a nerf to Paladin which I don't think the developers wanted. Earlier I explained that SWF and S&B are Paladin's best styles, nothing the THF update does changes that, though it does buff Barbarians and Maul Wolfs.

[J-mann]

Two handed fighting is Paladins weakest fighting style, all the Great Sword wielding Paladins running around is the reason people laugh at it. Paladin's two strongest styles are Single Weapon Fighting and Sword and Board. Knights Training, which Paladin just got for free, two common Favored Weapons, Long Swords and Warhammers, really powerful. Also both SWF and S&B give an offhand slot that can hold more stats and help lock in set bonus's. Specifically you can get a lot of devotion from an orb to assist in your own self / party healing capability and so forth. SWF and S&B both provide a large boost in attack speed which helps DPS immensely. My SWF builds are notorious for being chainsaws and just chewing through groups of monsters.

THF is for Barbs Fighters and Druids, flex Paladin's hybrid nature with SWF or S&B.

I was saying more thematically. The most iconic paladin weapon is a two handed sword or sword and board imo. I agree though that 2hers taking 2 slots and getting no additional effects is limiting, part of why I want strike through to be good. It should be if I get less effects.

[palladin9479]

I was saying more thematically. The most iconic paladin weapon is a two handed sword or sword and board imo. I agree though that 2hers taking 2 slots and getting no additional effects is limiting, part of why I want strike through to be good. It should be if I get less effects.

Well to be fair core 3.5E rules are that if your wielding a medium or higher one handed weapon and your off hand is empty, you can treat that weapon as a two handed weapon as you can use your second hand to help grasp the handle. To Halfings Long Sword were actually two handed weapons and to Giants Great Swords were one handed weapons.

[palladin9479]

Actually got an idea. So keep Divine Might as they want it, +1/2 of Charisma to those stats. If using a Favored Weapon increase the attack/damage by 50%.

*Bam*

Won't get abused by people dipping in Cleric or something while also not nerfing Paladin / Cleric / Favored Soul doing damage builds.

[Propane]

Actually got an idea. So keep Divine Might as they want it, +1/2 of Charisma to those stats. If using a Favored Weapon increase the attack/damage by 50%.

*Bam*

Won't get abused by people dipping in Cleric or something while also not nerfing Paladin / Cleric / Favored Soul doing damage builds.

I suspect there are other things at play... Otherwise scaling Divine Might to # of religious lore feats would get the job done... for every religious lore feat, you can convert 10 CHR to 5 Ins STR or similar...

[Kilgrave]

Apologies for taking a while to get to this thread; I can't fix bugs/implement feedback changes and write long posts at the same time, & needed to get stuff ready for Lamannia Round 2 (coming soon!).


So, here's the thing with Holy Retribution. The current ability reads: "Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy cleave against nearby targets that deals +5[W] damage, 100 extra holy damage that scales with 200% Melee or Ranged Power, -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds, and recharges one Smite Evil charge to you. On Damage: Evil creatures may be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Sunder Bonuses) or be destroyed. Evil creatures with under 1000 HP must always make this save or die.Evil creatures with between 5000 and 1000 HP have a 50% chance to be forced to make this save or die. Evil creatures with more than 5000 HP have a 33% chance to be forced to make this save or die."

When it has a viable DC (as it does in U45), and lowered health restrictions (as it does in U45), it more or less becomes "Assassinate, but a Cleave". It can kill up to 25 targets at a time (more on the ranged version, but that's less likely to be pulled off). Even at 30 seconds, it's very strong, possibly too strong. We can shoot for a lower cooldown if that's what people want, but we're definitely going to bring its power down if we do, either through reducing the number of targets or the likelihood that they're forced to make the save.

NP thanks for getting back to me. WOW It can kill up to 25 targets at a time really? This is cool and what ever you do plz dnt bring down the power

Could you look at Divine Might for pure paladins someone said (+1/2 of Charisma to those stats. If using a Favored Weapon increase the attack/damage by 50%.) or maybe you put it in cor 6 my pally is so weak compared to my barbarian thanks Steel

[Xandez]

Steel can you either put it back or give it as a selector because as it stands you just nerfed Paladin.

Wow, something we agree upon
I think the original Divine Might selector: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma Modifier.
should be retained.

[Fedora1]

Wow, something we agree upon
I think the original Divine Might selector: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma Modifier.
should be retained.

TBH I'd rather see it become a divine or some other special bonus, not insightful, We are trying to buff KotC with these changes, aren't we?

So far it's either a change-up with no net gain or an outright nerf.

[justagame]

Wow, I am now quite concerned that these efforts to give both THF and KOTC some love are going to move THF Paladins from simply weak to DOA.

[palladin9479]

Wow, I am now quite concerned that these efforts to give both THF and KOTC some love are going to move THF Paladins from simply weak to DOA.

Yep, prior to them announcing a Divine Might nerf THF Paladin might of been okish for groups of trash, now it'll end up doing the same or less damage then current. Honestly I hope the devs bother to read this and realize they are nerfing something unintentionally and turn around and fix it.