U45 Preview 1: Balance: Knight of the Chalice Changes

[ChadB123]

Honest answer: Because I made over 100 for Alchemist and don't wanna make any more spells, please, anything but that, nooooo

The updated spell is way better. You could change the bonus type to stack with DC.

[Khalibano]

The updated spell is way better. You could change the bonus type to stack with DC.

Agreed. There is also a non-stacking issue with the new KotC 'Blessed Purpose' ability. I suggested this in a previous post too:

Very glad to hear pally spells will receive a buff I really like how bless and prayer will scale up, and the addition of doubleshot to Zeal.

I just wanted to make some suggestions:

- Angelskin is proposed to give a sacred bonus to AC and PRR. The Sacred defender tree already grants that bonus type to both abilities, so I am assuming they will not stack, which would make this spell far less desirable. Could it grant a different bonus type, so it stacks with the enhancement tree?

- Stalwart pact is proposed to give a sacred bonus to melee and ranged power. This would not stack with either the new 'Blessed Purpose' in the re-vamped KotC tree and neither with Divine Crusader's 'Celestial Champion (since both are typed 'sacred'). Assuming dps pallies will use the new version of the spell + KotC tree + Divine Crusader (all dps oriented), they would be getting 3x the same type of bonus (non-stackable). Could we have each of these abilities/spell grant a different bonus type, so they all stack?

Thanks for considering these suggestions

[Khalibano]

I was listening to DDO cast the other day and heard one of them saying that Dwarven Axes would be added as a favored weapon in the Dwarf racial tree.
Is this being implemented in U45? I did not see it in any of the release notes.

Really hoping it will be included

[jsavorn]

What a load of meh and whatevs...

These minor tweaks do not make me excited to switch to Paladin after it goes live.

100% correct. Totally not useful to play other than in specific battles. Not well rounded, not enough dps, not unique, and utter trash class. Might as well delete it. High reaper or even tr grinding this class ( or any melee for that matter ) is a joke. One hit from a champ and dead. Melee classes are broken and this is the worse of them. I came to the game with the hopes of playing my favorite pnp class over 10 years ago but was supremely disappointed, it was only when ( for a brief time ) that Paladin was fun to play when it could actually do some serious 2hw dps and then that got nerfed.

In summary Paladins will still be the worst of all melee and melees will still be relegated to being front line fodder only to die by being one shotted ( other than monks who are the only decent end game melee toon ).

To fix: make ac or mrr / prr matter allowing them to be viable in the tr solo grind and in R3+ content - Add more 2hf dps ( a lot & cha based not str based ), make them have a crucial role/ spell that benefits the entire group (an aura would be best like consecrated ground but more permanent - casters and other melee - cha based ) - keep the loh the same, and get rid of so many useless and situational spells. Paladins are champions of evil, and lets face it all of do is evil so let’s do away with just the undead and evil outsiders only dynamics. In pnp a Paladin is always welcome and wanted - here in ddo they are seen as a toon that is being played only to fufill the completionist requirement.

[SpartanKiller13]

When I was doing this spell rework, my options were either kidnap an existing spell (which also neatly cleans up the spellbook - less spells that are clunky and don't really scale) or make a new one. I opted for the former.

I'd argue it should be renamed Strong Pact or something if you're making it a DPS option. That or updating Divine Favor with these effects instead.

As far as retaining the value of Stalwart Pact, perhaps have it be a reactive heal similar to Spring's Resurgence? That way it scales via Positive Spellpower. Otherwise it needs a much higher base value, as I don't think I know many people who use it presently.

[palladin9479]

So still leaving Divine Power as **** tier? It wouldn't be bad if it didn't cap out at level 9 with such a short duration that it's just not worth clicking it in the first place. Could we get that to scale to level 18 at least?

[Hulligan]

So this is the dps tree of Paladins. But where's the punch? Where is the melee power?
melee power against undead and/or outsiders? That's neat. Will help a lot when the enemy is aberration/ animal/ construct/ dragon/ elemental/ giant/ humanoid/ magical beast/ ooze/ plant/ vermin.
There's no real dps in the dps tree and that is sad.
You know what would help?
Erease the HP restriction of Holy Retribution.
Just like this:
On Damage: Evil creatures may be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Sunder Bonuses) or be destroyed. 30 second cooldown. Period. No further restrictions.

at lvl 12 with CHA 36 that's a base DC 22+13+Sunder bonus nothing lower or higher than a caster has DC on circle of death. Correct me if I'm wrong but circle of death doesn't have HP restriction whatsoever.

at lvl 30 with CHA 90 that's a base DC 40+40+sunder bonus, still somewhere very near to circle of death dc

Would that really be game breaking?
Why would anyone play a paladin when you can just zerg through the entire game 1 to 30 while blasting your enemies with 1-2 spells, at runspeed.
No past lives required, a first lifer sorcerer can outperform any melee, dps wise and live to tell the tale having access to displacement whereas melees have no access to such.

[Kilgrave]

Ok as far as testing go's I only had a few hours to test it, As a regular Paladin player this is my opinion on the listed goals.

Current plan for KOTC for Update 45. Our goals are to:

Increase the overall viability of DPS Weapon-based Paladins
I only had a few hours to test,(the dps in my opinion is still low.)

Move abilities in the tree
Good job.

Provide some incentive to use Favored Weapons as well as add synergy with alternate Favored Weapons from Wood Elf, Inquisitive, Divine Crusader
I enjoyed Deity Feat Structure alternate-Favored-Weapons stuff and the Spell Changes.

I just want to say in closing I've been waiting patiently for a long time for you to show my Pally some love and you effort just feels half-hearted, almost like you were so busy playing with your new alchemist that it left little time for my pally

IMO pally needs more dps and flavor!

[Strimtom]

Here are all the things I found that were either bugs or suggestions for adjustment:

knight of the chalice:
[Suggestion]Knights command is unusable in combat due to 5 second animation. Consider no animation or making it an attack or using the intimidate animation
[Suggestion]lead the charge too short, needs to be extended 10 meters. It feels like by the time you press it you are already in melee combat.
[BUG]captsone champion of good does not let you go to 25 stacks
[BUG]I still can't turn undead with being a level 30 paladin, 90 charisma, 21 sacred, 21 hallowed, and the paladin +3 from knight of the chalice, also 1 cleric past life. I'm only missing

[Noircere]

Was the current functionality any good? I honestly wasn't aware players were fond of this spell. I absolutely don't mind another rework - what would you like the spell to do?

I actually make use of the existing Stalwart Pact. (But not as a paladin.) I'm a squishy healer, and some no-thought no-delay no-attention-required temp HPs might save me when I'm in trouble.

...that said, I love the new proposed Melee/Ranged power design. Significant martial/divines buff for all divines. Maybe have it do both? Weapon power to caster, emergency temp HPs to target?

[Noircere]

Erease the HP restriction of Holy Retribution.
Just like this:
On Damage: Evil creatures may be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Sunder Bonuses) or be destroyed. 30 second cooldown. Period. No further restrictions.

Speaking as a Quivering Palm-loving monk (so I know a thing or two about melee-range instakills), the existing design will be strong at cap, if you invest in the DC. 2-3 kills per 30sec (33% of "about" 10 mobs per pack, roughly every-other fight, when at zerg speed on r10) is significant if you can land the DC. Landing the DC should be attainable, as it scales significantly better than Quivering Palm (which cannot accept boosts from gear -- stat mod, trees, and feats only). It's also front-loaded, which will help the party to survive the perilous first few seconds of an encounter.

To devs: the Holy Retribution animation on live currently strikes three times in its area, forcing three save-or-die events per target. If this is unchanged on Lammania, it might also force three 33% checks, resulting in a net 70% chance to kill at lv30.

If reducing randomness is desirable, another alternate design suggestion:

+5[W], single-target, 100% chance, no HP restrictions, and accepts Strikethrough. This would give it a consistent 2 kills per cast, rather than a spread. Could add some Strikethrough to the special attack if you prefer a different base kill count.

[Noircere]

I think it might be fun if the various effects that trigger on undead/demons also include the evil-sounding monster champion types. This would also help paladins have fun in non-undead non-demon content (at least on higher difficulties).

[Alcides]

Reposting due to edits

[Vorachtin]

KotC / Paladin pass suggestions


Keepers

* Stalwart Pact: Gain a +5% Quality bonus to hit points. When your hit point total is 50% gain temporary hit points equal to your caster level times charisma modifier. This cannot occur more than once every 3 minutes.

Ahh turds i didnt log in today, did stalwart pact get nerfed already to hit points instead of melee power?

Edit- just checked its not nerfed, phew!

[Vorachtin]

I was listening to DDO cast the other day and heard one of them saying that Dwarven Axes would be added as a favored weapon in the Dwarf racial tree.
Is this being implemented in U45? I did not see it in any of the release notes.

Really hoping it will be included

Its in the racial tree, tier 3

[Vorachtin]

Slayer of evil bump to scaling 200% is nice improvement, base dmg should increase in cores at the last i.e d8 core 18, d10 core 10 for example.

[Khalibano]

Its in the racial tree, tier 3

Found it, thanks!

Enhancements

• Racial Enhancements
  
  • Dwarven Axe Training 3 now grants +5% Strikethrough Chance while wielding a Dwarven Waraxe and grants you Dwarven Waraxe as a Favored Weapon in addition to its other effects

[janave]

rm;

[BrokenAgain]

Hi thank you for the changes to the KOTC, as someone who has been playing some sort of Paladin or Paladin splash since I started DDO, I think this is a step in the right direction (could probably use a bit of melee/ranged power in the cores, however).

There is one change which could be concerning, and that is:

Attack Boost: Removed, made multiselector with Power Boost in Tier 2
Replaced With: Knight's Command: +1/2/3 to Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 to Fortitude Saves

So now we have to pick between Attack Boost OR Power Boost; however previously we could pick up both action boosts for more sources of prowess between shrines, but now we have one less action boost to work with. Is there any way we could retain both action boosts in the enhancement tree without picking between them? That would be great, thank you.

[bloodnose13]

so im going to start that im happy something is done with paladin finally, and this time it looks decent, much better at least than previous attempts.

1. Divine might: i like the fact that cost is lowered, means its bit more accessible for someone who invests AP mostly in defender tree, BUT its too high in tree still, it should be tier 1 effect, i understand that its done this way to dissuade multiclasses from using it, but truthfully multis would probably use fvs or cleric for that because its still easier and gives more, if it really is such a problem then add a small check to Divine might on activation:
heroic level value = paladin level value - 100% bonus, so 2 paladin levels in 20 level character would give 10% bonus, while 18 levels in 20 would give 90%.

2. whats with all the crutches, first the cleaves, i still think they should not exist but fine, but now you give knights training for free, if you are so saddened by how hard it is to fit in feats, then take look at those feat chains that have to be taken by every melee, like shield mastery, like thf, swf, twf feat chains (each of those has the next feat invalidate the previous one as its just an upgrade of lower tier), if those were reduced to 1 scaling feat then there would be no problems with feat slots.

3. while i like the fact that defender got two new echancements too and a pretty good ones, they again make the tree overly costly in ap, my current net cost for all i deem "must have" is 53 ap, there are really some enchancements that could be merged or removed, harbored by light for example for me its a constant annoyance that im forced to take by the 25 prr and layons (ok i may be biased about it but i dislike having always on guard effect that i cant remove), if that was merged into other enchancement, i would gladly forget it exists. another one is hardy. strong and tenacious defence echancements, those should be merged into 3 cores before capstone. i really hope defender tree will get some redesign in near future.

i may add to this post in a while.