U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

[DRoark]

Agreed. Just make IPS not work with Xbows. Problem solved.

This makes about as much sense as flying zombie potatoes. Xbows are mechanically stronger than bows, a bolt can go through a target much easier than an arrow. Only thing
an arrow has going for it is a longer range, but less impact. You want to get technical about it, make arrows have an arc, so rangers have to aim UP. wouldn't THAT be fun, too!

[Zer0AcmE]

While I agree that Inquis needed some kind of nerf I don't understand the nerf to IPS, you just complettly crapped on bow users and dont give me this BS we boosted DWS, you SHOULD have boosted AA!!!

[Assassination]

Inquisitive
Dual Crossbow combat style now only uses 66% of your Doubleshot.
Inquisitive Law Dice now scale with 150% Ranged Power (was 200%)
"Improved Law" and "Greater Law" in Inquisitive now grant +1 Law Die (previously +2).

This does not really address the "Insane" rate of fire that Inquisies enjoy... That is what needs to be nerfed.

In a recent run through heroics as a bow using ranger, I ran with an inquizie build who I would estimate fire 4-6 bolts to my 1 arrow. That does not make any sense.

It's like Inquizies have xbows that operate on "full auto". I would guess it is also a major contributor to the lag the game now seems to enjoy.

Please address the actual problem here, nerfing other ranged builds that well suck is not nice. Thank you.

[Steelstar]

In essence this change nerfs every ranged build

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

If you're saying Repeaters on Live right now are overperforming then I have to challenge your expectations for where you think overall ranged should be...Repeaters werent invalidating melee before Inqui or anything. If you're trying to get all ranged styles to a point weaker than Repeaters on Live, then you're going to pull another gross overshoot and make ranged unfun for everyone.

I hope you pay attention to that moving forward with testing. I doubt you will though since Lama is never open for long enough and people dont actually try things that arent part of the changes, ie Repeaters. They need help, not hindrance, especially as Throwers seem primed to become high-ROF ranged weapons now too, decreasing the rolespace for RXB. Bows too for that matter, but you seem to be acknowledging how Bows are in a bad place - even as you seem to be condemning Repeaters to join them.

1) You're correct, Repeaters aren't invalidating entire builds. That's why they're getting a nudge as opposed to larger changes - They aren't dropping their Rapid Reload bonuses (unlike other combat styles), they aren't losing out in the change to make Fusilade/NHB's startup animation consistent (unless you were cheesing to get around it, in which case we do not feel bad about that loss), they aren't losing any further Doubleshot or procs or anything. Just the nudge to ranged as a style.
2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.
3) We've done extensive internal testing with these changes already, but we'll also be keeping an eye on Lamannia and make changes where needed.

[Steelstar]

This does not really address the "Insane" rate of fire that Inquisies enjoy... That is what needs to be nerfed.

We know that is part of the issue and that has been changed in this Update, per the note "Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before."

For what it's worth, Great Crossbow is only nudged down by 5% in that change; Dual Light/Heavy drop by about 20%.

[barecm]

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

Really?!? So casters who hold monster / instakill their way through content is not completely op vs everything else in this game?

[Vorachtin]

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"



2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.

Pretty easy to implement small fix and adjust this new change:

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

Change to: Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity, requires Longbow or Shortbow equipped

Boom dps up on long/short bow - cant use with xbows win win win

[barecm]

2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.

And yet, bows get nerfed as well.

There is so many illogical, self-contradictory statements going on in this thread in general it is hard to keep up.

I think we can sum it up by saying.... SSG knows long/short bows are way under performing. They are nerfing them anyway along with other forms of ranged combat. Is that about right?

[droid327]

1) You're correct, Repeaters aren't invalidating entire builds. That's why they're getting a nudge as opposed to larger changes - They aren't dropping their Rapid Reload bonuses (unlike other combat styles), they aren't losing out in the change to make Fusilade/NHB's startup animation consistent (unless you were cheesing to get around it, in which case we do not feel bad about that loss), they aren't losing any further Doubleshot or procs or anything. Just the nudge to ranged as a style.

I still dont see the logic...

Repeaters on Live right now arent in a good place. I get they're part of Ranged and you think Ranged overall is too strong - but the contribution of Repeaters to that overall Ranged OPness is 0%.

You arent buffing Repeaters in any way, you're just not nerfing them as much as other builds. That doesnt help with the broader problematic Ranged-Melee dichotomy, because that dichotomy was being driven solely by Inqui and GXB and Shuri builds. Repeaters (and bows) were not part of the problem

They need a net buff this update, even if that just means some RXB-specific buffs to offset the overall ranged nerfs. Thats why I suggested removing the Doubleshot penalty for RXB that was previously put on them, or at least making it 66% consistent with DXB now. Even with that change they'd still be #3 for ranged ROF behind DXB and the new Throwers.

[Aelonwy]

We know that is part of the issue and that has been changed in this Update, per the note "Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before."

For what it's worth, Great Crossbow is only nudged down by 5% in that change; Dual Light/Heavy drop by about 20%.

Ahhh now that is the REAL nerf... er balance adjustment. Warranted... but ouch. For what its worth I'm okay with the Inq changes. I don't like the IPS changes. I switched my AA from longbows to Inq because of how far she had fallen behind over the years... even with the changes to DWS I don't see going back to longbow as worth it. Especially, with the IPS change.

[barecm]

Pretty easy to implement small fix and adjust this new change:

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

Change to: Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity, requires Longbow or Shortbow equipped

Boom dps up on long/short bow - cant use with xbows win win win

This has been going on for years and years... there are lot of thing they CAN do to help long/short bows. They have consistently shown over my nearly 14 years in this game that they CHOOSE not to do so. And then they act taken aback when folks dare to insinuate that they hate long/short bows. No worming your way out of this mess SSG. You have shown your cards already.

[rabidfox]

[*][*]Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before.

I assume this is supposed to be "Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual HEAVY Crossbows" and not that heavy aren't effect...

[Steelstar]

I assume this is supposed to be "Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual HEAVY Crossbows" and not that heavy aren't effect...

AH. Correct.

[Steelstar]

This has been going on for years and years... there are lot of thing they CAN do to help long/short bows. They have consistently shown over my nearly 14 years in this game that they CHOOSE not to do so. And then they act taken aback when folks dare to insinuate that they hate long/short bows. No worming your way out of this mess SSG. You have shown your cards already.

If you've read the OP, you'll have seen this section which bears repeating:

We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

[barecm]

What is really getting nerfed with this update is my desire to continue playing / spending money on this game.

[Assassination]

I think we can sum it up by saying.... SSG knows long/short bows are way under performing. They are nerfing them anyway along with other forms of ranged combat. Is that about right?

Yes, yes it is... Why nerf rapid reload? Nerf Inquisitive's rate of fire. Rapid reload nerf affects other classes, playstyles that do not need to be nerfed.

[Steelstar]

Yes, yes it is... Why nerf rapid reload? Nerf Inquisitive's rate of fire. Rapid reload nerf affects other classes, playstyles that do not need to be nerfed.

Rapid Reload adjusts every Crossbow style individually, which in turn affects overall fire rate. Dual Crossbow's boost from that is now much lower than the other Crossbows. As I said above, Great Crossbows also took a nudge in this change (5%), and nothing else about Rapid Reload is changed.

[barecm]

If you've read the OP, you'll have seen this section which bears repeating:

All we can see is what is currently being offered in the game. Me telling my boss that I have big plans later in the year to fix my crappy performance I am showing now, and over the past 14 years, is not going to save me from getting fired.

[Neo-Masamune]

Gonna drop my opinion here, my main character has been AA for more lifes than i can count, this update is a big letdown on long/shortbows... Deepwood sniper is fine... But you need to boost AA! AA is the main archer class! Come on! Deepwood will be better than AA? i mean, Deepwood was suposed to be quite good on ranged as much it is on melee, and AA was suposed to be the best archer!


Can you guys think about it?

[Gregen]

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Heavy Draw no longer reduces Attack by 5 when toggled on, and now also grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier to Longbows and Shortbows while toggled on.

Does the new Heavy Draw intentionally not stack with Shadow Arrows from the Arcane Archer tree? While the -5 Attack penalty being removed is nice, the bonus to critical multiplier does nothing for a bow user heavily invested in both the Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker trees.

I wouldn't particularly care if it were not for the proposed 20% damage reduction on IPS. As a bow user, these changes are just a straight 20% damage reduction, which is pretty massive, and I do not think the 10% ranged alacrity does much of anything to make up for it. Assuming it stacks on top of other speed bonuses, this only results in a few percent faster fire rate.

I would be interested in trying out the new Archer's Focus, especially with the movement and manyshot restrictions now removed. However, resetting stacks on hitting another target makes it virtually useless. I like hit_fido's suggestion in just removing a stack or two when hitting a new target. Ranged combat is pretty great for clearing trash, and having a "boss mode" stance is great, but I can't imagine the new Archer's Focus being good for either of these things.
When running through a quest, you won't reach very many stacks. The current version of AF would work more effectively for this. Of course, it would be ideal to use IPS most of the time, but 20% is still a huge reduction.
AF is already useful during boss fights. Just stand there and deal extra damage to the boss. With the new AF, when adds come into a boss fight, your options are to either not help your party members kill them, or help and have to start your focus all over again.
I don't think these are great options and AF is better left alone than having to deal with resets. Dropping stacks instead of resetting them is a better happy medium.

I also agree with what some others have said, that if inquisitors are too powerful, then the changes to IPS should apply to crossbows and not to longbows. I don't know what kind of logical sense that makes. Maybe longbows arrows have more momentum behind them than crossbow bolts and pierce through bodies better. Who knows... but I do know this is not fair to bow users.
As an aside, I do think Shadow Arrows and Heavy Draw should stack their bonuses to Critical Multiplier, especially with the changes to IPS. Otherwise, the 20% damage reduction is the real big issue here. I don't think this is a good change.

But those are just my thoughts. I hope they made sense.